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Moguls

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Masque, "OK this is very subjective, but are my poles just being used to ensure that my upper body (torso) is stabilised in relation to the fall-line and providing a fulcrum for the articulation needed by my legs to absorb/respond to the moguls? "
Yes.

beanie1, Good description of a compression turn.

Ian Hopkinson, Several things to know about bumps:
1. The hole is more important than the bump - look for the hole with your toes
2. Compression turns are back-to-front turns. Flexion first, extension second.
3. In the beginning only try to ski 3-4 bumps at a time, when you can do this try 5 and so on.
4. Imagine that the ceiling is about 1cm above your head - if you extend to start the turn you'll get a nasty thump.
5. Start slowly.
6. If you try to retract your legs you won't do it in time - let your legs do it themselves (they will if you're reasonably balanced and relaxed).
Cool
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easiski wrote:

4. Imagine that the ceiling is about 1cm above your head - if you extend to start the turn you'll get a nasty thump.


On one memorable occasion used this description with a group of kids - only to got back the retort "but we've got helmets on" Smile
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easiski wrote:
y.
6. If you try to retract your legs you won't do it in time - let your legs do it themselves (they will if you're reasonably balanced and relaxed).
Cool


Do you ever push forward at the knee?
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One good exercise is to find a lonely bump on it's own on the piste and head for it.

I aim is to take out as much speed as possibe but without coming to a complete stop while keeping any skidding to a minimum.

These are the techniques I use

Turning before the bump
continuing the turn across the front face of the bump
getting the pole plant / touch in and using it as a split second crutch if need be.
Letting the feet retract / sinking /absorbing the bump in both the vertical and horizontal plane (involves getting forward/inside the turn and dropping the hips down)
Using legs like shock absorbers on a car (not too soft or too hard/stiff just progressive and well controlled)
Releasing the ski edges in a controlled way

Too fast into the bump and you have a problem.
Taking too much speed away is also a problem as it burns the thighs and loses momentum.
Getting it just right means you carry just the right amount of speed further for the least amount of work.
The job is then to repeat this left to right in a series of bumps. (Practice more on your weakest turn)

The overall aim is to drop down the bump run in a controlled and efficient way at a speed I am comfortable with.
As I get more comfortable I don't turn across the fall line as much and take more speed into the next turn.

High speed zipperline bump skiing down a steep bump run is probably left to the pro's and teenagers.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and you can just skid from turn to turn at high speed but in my experience this is too tiring / dangerous and IMHO doesn't represent good skiing.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 16-03-05 20:35; edited 4 times in total
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comprex, Always.
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easiski, it's what I suspected: push forward but allow up is quite a sophisticated motion.
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I was taught to plant out on steeper terrain ... not forward. If plant forward then there is a tendency for the pole to be planted very close to your ski. In such a position there are at least two effects:

1. Because of the close proximity this can result in tripping over the pole when skiing fast.

2. The torso is closed away from the fall line ie the outside of the downhill shoulder points downhill.

Planting to the side of the ski (I would say just in front of the boot, rather than halfway down the ski) has at least two effects:

1. You soon pass the point you planted the pole and eliminate tripping

2. By reaching out you are reaching down the hill which opens your torso to the mountain, anticipating the next turn.

Moguls and boarding

Because I am a new boarder my experience in moguls is limited to jumping over small ones and"negotiating" bigger ones. However, I note that Masque says whilst my trailing leg and/or my knees are very busy following the track of the bump

As when skiing moguls you drive the front of the skis round moguls I would have thought that emphasis needs to be placed at the front of the board not the back. Is this not true?
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Snowboard mogul technique looks similar to skiing ....

http://www.ehow.com/how_10590_ride-moguls-snowboard.html

http://www.snowboardingtips.com/moguls.html
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Ian Hopkinson, an interesting thread! comprex, I think there is...and apologies if I am rehashing what others have sugegsted. It's so much more difficult to describe than show! Happy

Question: how do you turn on one bump? If you can answer that then you're sorted, it's just a question of linking multiple single turns thereafter.

IMHO most people leap straight into trying to link turns together without getting the basics right - a very challenging task indeed. Probably too challenging to explain without demonstrating but here goes...

The essence of the turn is to let gravity, the shape of the bump and your skis do most of the work.

So, assume you are approaching a solitary bump from a shallow traverse.

Biggest problem I see people making is not absorbing the bump. Ideally your legs should be compressed to the point that if you simply skied straight over the bump without turning then your torso wouldn't move at all.

Your legs absorb the entire height of the bump. If you consider than in huge steep bumps your heels can reach your bum, then even for little me that's 2 1/2 feet of absorbtion... and yes I have had "Salomon" inversely bruised on my bum on occasion.

If you can absorb properly then that's a major part of it.

Then, if you could freeze frame yourself, you want to find yourself frozen on the top of the bump with your shoulders pointing downhill, your inside arm rotated well into the direction of the turn, with your pole planted just behind and below your skis. Skis parallel, feet together, skis close together (so they can rotate as one). (You can actually do this from a stationary position).

As your skis slide forward over the bump this pre-rotation will automatically bring your skis round and down the far side to point in the opposite direction... ready for the next turn/traverse/etc.

Start slowly, practise travesring bumps fields to get the hang of absorbption, don't try and link together until you can easily do one and you're away.
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B00thy, I’m coming to the mind that riding bumps well is a little like riding powder in the sense that much of the steering ‘control’ comes from the rear leg (this is more theory since I’ve only tried it once but in that one case it worked) .
My board was set up for aggressive on-piste riding with the bindings very forward, my body position was centred down through my lead leg (I’m regular) with my left shoulder, hip, knee and ankle relaxed and in a line drawn at 90° to the board/fall-line. This puts my centre of mass into the nose of the board, right at start or even forward of the effective edge and able to switch edges quickly (that’s important). This is where it gets interesting.

In normal piste riding the turning edge initiation is delivered with pressure through the lead foot with the rear following the track line and using torque to either enhancing the carve or allowing the edge to wash out.

In the bumps, I initiated the first turn by pulling a small nose ollie, lifting up the trailing leg and pushing the tail of the board onto the uphill shoulder of the first bump, twisting the leading edge into the ‘zipper’. The absorption/recoil from the shoulder of the bump kept my torso stable yet allowed my trailing leg to cross under my pelvis, torque the board onto the other edge and prepare to hit and absorb the next and opposite mogul shoulder.

The trailing leg spent half of its time off the snow. It also seemed that as I tired and stopped fighting the bumps and started relaxing it became easier and more fluid.

It’s the isolation of the torso and legs that allowed the fast transition from edge to edge and I found that I was using my arms as a counterbalance to the leg(s) ‘cross-under’.

OK, I’ve only managed this once and this is my attempt to analyse what happened, but I think it should be possible for a boarder to ride the bumps consistently with the same speed and manner as a skier, it’s just a case of taking our heads away from the ‘smooth, long, carving turn’ mindset and adapting techniques from skiers. After all we do have a far greater ability to input control into our snow tool than the two-plankers. snowHead
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Masque, coming as I am from a skiing background I tend to carve short turns and I am trying to put what I know as a skier into practice. When I started I used to use the trailing leg for steering but of course to carve I have moved away from this. My torso is pretty isolated from my legs - I guess it naturally is because of my skiing level which is quite high.

What I do have trouble with is riding flat. Which for really advanced mogul skiing is essential. The skis remain fairly flat when riding the zip line and you you skid/bounce the skis rather than carve them round as do you short turns in the fall line.

I feel confident that what you describe, with independent upper and lower body and relaxation will get you (and me to good fast mogul riding.

Riding flat with some kind of half ollie is what will be needed to match fast zip line mogul skiing
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B00thy, riding flat has everything to do with where your centre of mass is passing through the board and into the fall line. Binding position plays a crucial role in this.
Imagine that your board is a weather vane and the point on the board where your mass passes through is where it is pivoted. The further forward this point the more inclined for the vane/board to track true to the fall line (wind). The further back toward the centre the greater the inclination for the vane/board to oscillate or flutter from side to side and the moment the centre of mass passes behind the centre point of the board then everything will want to switch ends.
If your board is set up for deep powder then on the flat piste you need to maintain a very conscious and continuous forward pressure into the front of the board. If your bindings are forward then it’s possible to ride very fast and securely on the flat and be relaxed onto both legs equally. It’s all down to stance and binding position and your desire to ride piste, powder or all mountain.
On the flat, just keep forward, low and relaxed and let your rear leg be a flag in the wind, your board will track true on the flat. Don’t fight any fluttering, it will self correct as long as you keep your mass in front of the centre point.
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comprex, Yes indeedy! Shocked
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
easiski, you and comprex still talking about moguls? . . . or is my mind wandering down its more usual digusting neural pathways?
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Masque, I don't rightly know, but I can tell I'd probably benefit from lessons in LDA.
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Found a few mogul clips (don't know who the skiers are)

http://www.j2ski.com/ski_technique/Moguls/

http://www.fotosearch.com/SKA100/spt0015007-004/

various skiing/Snowboarding clips http://www.fotosearch.fr/creatas-stock-footage/temps-enneiges/CRT764/

anybody got anymore moguls clips ?
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The thing that I find really helps (and the thing that I find most difficult to do) is to look well ahead of me, rather than down at my feet.

When I first started trying to ski the bumps, I used to watch where my skis were going, which meant that I was always being caught out by the next bump...or the next bump but one.

Now that I've had a lot more practice I try and pick my route down through a mogul field and let my skis do their own thing.

I'm still not that good at it, but I'm a lot better than I was.

As for extending into the troughs, I'd recommend actually making a positive effort to point the tips of my skis down into the troughs (flex your ankles so that your toes press down on the front of the ski). - This is counter-intuitive, because your first thought is that your ski tips are going to dig in and you're going to be jetted out of your bindings, but in fact it helps you keep ski-to-snow contact, which is essential to maintain control. From my experience, if you get a little air, you tend yto fall right back into the back seat, and end up flying off the top of the next bump with (usually) disastrous consequences.
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Acacia, you should never be looking down at your skis!

Well, except when cuddling them. Skis need affection you know.
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DB,

Where did you get my holiday videos? wink
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slikedges wrote:
DB,

Where did you get my holiday videos? wink


A bloke in the pub with a dog was selling them. Picked em less than others paid for your bedroom videos on account that there were less bumps and action in the skiing vids wink


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 18-03-05 19:09; edited 1 time in total
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Another tip for keeping your tips down in the troughs is to practice skiing off small knolls but keeping ski contact with the snow.
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Okay, so I think I understand the "absorb bumps with my legs" and the "try to remain stuck to the snow" bits...however the turning bit has me a bit puzzled.

It sounds like the pole planting is a bit more vigorous than smooth piste ski=ing. Am I relying on my skis being relatively unweighted when I decide to turn and basically doing a skid turn? which appears to be what Mr Smith is doing in the video...

If I imagine myself frozen on a slope, am I unweighting my skis and pivoting them flat on the snow?
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Ian Hopkinson wrote:

It sounds like the pole planting is a bit more vigorous than smooth piste ski=ing.

On steeps. I don't think just plain moguls call for that. Quiet upper body, leisurely pole plants is what I see in DB's (sorry, slikedges') posted video. Vigorous only in the frame of reference of the skis themselves.

Quote:
Am I relying on my skis being relatively unweighted when I decide to turn and basically doing a skid turn? which appears to be what Mr Smith is doing in the video...


Notice that the point of retraction is to keep weight on your skis. If you didn't absorb properly they're unweighted. So you're just doing your standard smooth piste short turns really, perhaps not finishing them uphill quite.

My simple bump line, pole plant at blue circles:



Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Fri 18-03-05 20:51; edited 1 time in total
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DB,

Yes, I'm actually quite an expert in the bumps.....in the better selling videos. wink

Acacia,
Quote:

I'd recommend actually making a positive effort to point the tips of my skis down into the troughs

Agree with that. This point has been crucial to my personal progress on bumps. I find it's important for me to extend back into the troughs quite actively with tips down, so as to be ready to absorb for the next compression turn (so much so that I sometimes notice my tails in the air a bit at that point - not good as tendency to pick up speed from lack of snow contact, though (usually) recoverable as weight is still right). Problem is I instinctively come out of mogul compression turns with too much weight back trying to skid the tails to slow down, which doesn't work as a) nothing for the tails to skid on until you hit the trough with a thump and b) skis get overturned and weight all wrong for next turn. Sometimes I get it right and it flows. Sometimes I get it wrong and it's physically tiring.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 19-03-05 6:58; edited 1 time in total
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Ian Hopkinson wrote:
If I imagine myself frozen on a slope, am I unweighting my skis and pivoting them flat on the snow?


Normally yes.

The clip shows an advanced bump skier. When you are learning bumps you should be at a slower pace and turning across the fall line more. Aim to take out as much speed by settling into the bump then releasing your edges and finally steering the flat ski. If you are picking up too much speed then skid the skis into the bump (be careful not to use too much edge or you could go over the handlebars).
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comprex, oooooo....like the diagram! snowHead

I did manage to get the point of carving from a snowHeads thread, so there is some hope for me. I have a nice little mogul field in VT in mind for practice...
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DB wrote:
Found a few mogul clips (don't know who the skiers are)

http://www.j2ski.com/ski_technique/Moguls/

Pretty sure that is Warren Smith in the clips... I'll ask him later wink
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Masque, We were still talking about moguls!

Ian Hopkinson, The pole plant should not be too vigorous. If you plant hard then your turn will be affected. Always plant softly nowadays - more of a touch than a thump.

The skis are not unweighted to turn - it's just that for a moment only a very small portion of the ski is on the ground and they're therefore very easy to pivot. Very Happy
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easiski, we're obviously tied up in semantics here! snowHead

I've watched Warren Smith 2 on this, he seems very focused on the sliding (as opposed to carving) thing, metronomic pole planting but little interest in the path taken through the moguls (i.e. crests, troughs, summits).

J2Dave, we can quite easily convert you to "Ned Sherrin" wink - and yes, it was Warren Smith.
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Ian Hopkinson, Not worrying about the path may be fine for Warren Smith, but not for most of my students. They want to know how to progress down moguls smoothly, without hurting themselves or looking like a pl**ker. The path you take is therefore quite important in my view. Choose the correct technique for the correct path (it does vary). Most holiday skiers don't actually want to emulate Kari Tra - they just want to be able to deal with the beastly things!
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Just my 2 euro cent (again).

As I said before there's more than one way to skin a cat, there's even more ways to ski moguls hence the many differing opinions.

Was watching a freestyle mogul comp on the TV over the weekend. They had a lot of slow motion clips and it was good to watch their technique which to me (a skiing hacker not a ski instructor or other ski professional) looked different to how Warren Miller skied those bumps.

Sometimes bumps are well spaced, sometimes not. Sometimes the turm shape is the same, sometimes it's a different turn shape for each bump. Sometimes there's a smooth path between the bumps and I can get away slipping a flat ski if I wish. Sometimes it's a sharp V and using the same Technique would probably trip me.

The same moguls technique I can get away with on a moderate mogul run would be hurting me on bigger steeper bumps. (The Wall in Avoriaz was a challenge for me and it won Sad )

Bottom line - there isn't one way to ski the bumps and there isn't one type of bump run.
It's probably better to define what type of bumps and how fast or safely you want to ski them.

PS For those who may be interested I think Tatjana Mittermayer (Moguls Silver Medalist Nagano 1998) still runs a moguls camp at Kaprun, Austria every year.
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DB, I agree, but the original question was how could Ian Hopkinson learn to get down a mogul field. Competition mogul ski-ing is a completely different animal.
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Everyone seems to be getting very technical about pole plants. I am still discovering the various benefits of poles by trial and error and have realised from some of the above entries that I am maybe planting my pole too hard which is sometimes causing my arm to drag behind me, especially on moguls.

The biggest thing that helped me on moguls was taking on the bumps and absorbing them instead of trying to avoid them altogether and going around them (which I found became troublesome and would see me invariably traversing until I ran out of piste then stopping and wondering what to do next). As a relative beginner (7 weeks), I am working on absorbing the bumps and skidding down the backside, trying not to plant the poles too hard but using them to initiate a turn and keep rythm. I can do this on the easier bumps but it inevitably goes wrong on the big 'uns.

On a different note, anyone tried bumps on snowblades? I can vouch for the fact that it's great fun, especially given their shortness. They also eradicate the need for poles (weird at first on bumps but great feeling of freedom after getting used to it). Does anyone think blades would be a good training aid for moguls, or that they would be detrimental to my skiing?
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MOGULS ON A SNOWBOARD
So, how do the boarders here do moguls? Personally I'm ok on them, not great though. I'm not sure if my technique is right though - haven't taken lessons regarding moguls on a board, I'm just going off what works best. Basically I do fairly skiddy turns in the bumps, using the bump to help my turn. I force the board around, skidding the tail of the board downhill. I extend my legs somewhat between bumps, compressing my legs to absorb the next bump and help me turn. Is this what I should be doing? My style keeps the board on the snow, and lets me control my speed/stay in control, but is it what I should be doing? It's very tiring on the legs.
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Btw, I don't do very steep mogul runs, just moguls on blues and less steep blacks (in the Canadian system of green/blue/black/double black --- I think Canadian blacks = Europe reds). Evventually I would like to be able to handle moguls with speed on steeps.
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http://www.ifyouski.com/technique/warrenmoguls/
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I think that there is only one way to learn to ski moguls, and that is to keep practising them, gradually moving on to steeper narrower bump runs and then tree runs. The reason that most people have problems with moguls is that they spend loads of time avoiding them, then when they end up in the situation that they're forced to do them, they find them hard.
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Kramer, I certainly agree with the last point, just keep practising on the same slope/moguls over and over again. I found that dry-slope moguls are also a very good way of learning technique.
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Quote:

MOGULS ON A SNOWBOARD
So, how do the boarders here do moguls?



Most of the ones I see slide down the hill with their boards at right-angles to the fall-line, thus scraping all the snow off the bumps and reducing them to 'orrible icy lumps. Evil or Very Mad
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After spending a season trying to ski moguls, I found the best technique was to not think of them as moguls but as bumpy snow and just blast them without looking at them too much.

However, this technique works best on soft, friendly moguls rather than steep, icy

Remember, you can always turn as many times as you like on a single mogul. This works best on those shaped like canoes or small cars (like they were at times in Whistler Bowl this season).

There's nothing worse than an instructor trying to complicate things. Just lean down the hill so your tips touch the snow and guide you round the top of the mogul. Singing works, as does counting. I spent DAYS trying to find a good mogul song last season. Laughing
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