 Poster: A snowHead
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Following on from my other (short) thread specifically about Brugi gear, I've been wondering about the tech spec on labels.
A few years ago on my return to skiing I decided to hire my clothing. I remember the jacket was Surfanic and the label said 'windproof' with a waterproofing/breathability figure of '3000'. It didn't mean anything to me at the time but I later read up and pretty much uderstood what it meant.
The jacket wasn't the most stylish but when caught a few times in almost blizzardly conditions it certainly did the job.
So, for the next season I bought a Dare2be jacket which was labelled as 'isotex 5000', so technically better I thought. Last year it rained a couple of times and although it kept me dry, the outer layer still felt damp the following day. It made me think that the Surfanic was actually technically better. Also, having worn it at home for one winter, it's now gone a bit limp and some of the outer fabric is frayed in couple of places.
I've just bought a Brugi jacket and I'm still deciding whether or not to keep it but here's the thing: the label doesn't actually mention windproof, waterproof or breathable. It just lists the same facrics as the dare2be (minus the isotex layer) - outer 100% Polyamide, lining and pading a combination of Polyamide and Polyester.
Comparing it to the Dare2be, the Brugi actually feels better constructed with a tougher outer layer (even to what the dare2be was originally).
So, should there be any concern for clothing that does or doesn't specifically list it's waterpoof/breatability technical figures?
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brian
brian
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Jeraff, the waterproofing and breathability numbers should actually be separate (although coincidentally they often turn out quite similar for a given fabric).
Explanation here:
http://www.ellis-brigham.com/performance-fabrics-glossary.htm
For waterproofness, the quality of the seam taping can be just as important as the fabric used.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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brian, I kinda understand the figures but my limited experience suggests that these figures may not indicate the real performance - compare what I said about the Surfanic and the Dare2be.
Also, the fact that the Brugi doesn't even mention the words waterproof, breathable or windproof, does that mean it simply shouldn't be touched as a ski jacket?
And how can you tell the quality of the seam taping?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think it depends with how you want your ski jacket to function. I'd say go for an all mountain style mountaineering jacket if you want durability.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jeraff, It could be a case of manufacturers who develope their own water repelant, breathable and windproof materials not wishing to state that they are, in the high likelyhood that they arent! if that makes sense 
On traditional membrane kit, such as Lowe Alpine Tripple Point (damn good stuff and better than gortex if you can find it) Gortex and Pertex you will vary rarely see the technical spec of the membranes ability to withstand windmass or static head of water figures as they are generally very high, much higher than manufacturers who use their own fabrics and/or membranes and then state these on the products swing ticket.
Ski wear is usually not that waterproof as it is generally snow that it needs to shed, when it is worn whilst lashing down with rain it usually fails very quickly.
Mountain Equipment developed their own membrane and used it in products last year, I trialed some of the products and their new waterproof, breathable membrane was dropped this year and replaced with Gortex. Obviously they found the feedback was that it wasn't very good.
I can't comment on what is best for skiing in as I always use mountaineering orientated kit as it does the job perfectly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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On the subject can anyone tell me the different qualities of fabric used by "Spyder". I know the product Goretex but Spyder seem to have their own and have a variety of different fabrics! What are the qualities of each?
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brian
brian
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| but Spyder seem to have their own and have a variety of different fabrics! What are the qualities of each? |
The ability to be made into some truly mingin gear seems to be a common quality of all of them. 
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Roy Hockley, gore-tex is not the fabric. Gore-tex is the membrane. The fabric is polyamide (read: nylon) just like most of all the rest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For those interested, this is a true fact backed up by independant research and quitely played down by Gortex.
Gortex is no doubt a very waterproof membrane, however its has just about zero breathability once it is wet!, Its actually highly breathable when its dry, as stated in its marketing, its also very waterproof, BUT, its is not waterproof and breathable at the same time when it is tipping down with rain!!!! So it kind of defeats the object, why buy a breathable waterproof coat that works great when its not raining but doesn't breath when its wet??
Tripple Point on the other hand was proven to be less breathable than Gortex when its dry, but a lot more breathable and waterpoof when its wet!
Tripple Point should have been called Gortex and then you would have the best product.
In the end such was the marketing blurb and very strong brand of Gortex that Lowe Alpine stopped using their own product, Tripple Point and switched to Gortex in their products to keep sales going.
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| johnDUB wrote: |
| I think it depends with how you want your ski jacket to function. I'd say go for an all mountain style mountaineering jacket if you want durability. |
I would highly agree, I don't have any clothing manufactured as ski wear, I just use mountaineering kit, its just as warm, harder wearing and probably more waterproof when needed.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| mark handford wrote: |
For those interested, this is a true fact backed up by independant research and quitely played down by Gortex.
Gortex is no doubt a very waterproof membrane, however its has just about zero breathability once it is wet!, Its actually highly breathable when its dry, as stated in its marketing, its also very waterproof, BUT, its is not waterproof and breathable at the same time when it is tipping down with rain!!!! So it kind of defeats the object, why buy a breathable waterproof coat that works great when its not raining but doesn't breath when its wet??
Tripple Point on the other hand was proven to be less breathable than Gortex when its dry, but a lot more breathable and waterpoof when its wet!
Tripple Point should have been called Gortex and then you would have the best product.
In the end such was the marketing blurb and very strong brand of Gortex that Lowe Alpine stopped using their own product, Tripple Point and switched to Gortex in their products to keep sales going. |
Agree with this in practical experience - I've had brand new goretax jackets wet-out in about 60 mins. Actually use a relative cheapie coated patagucci for most waterproof demands these days.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Actually no fabric is going to breathe when fully wet, as water vapour cannot pass through a layer of liquid water. That is why the water repellancy (why the water beads up and runs off) of the face fabric is more important in the wet-weather breathability of a garment. A jacket where the surface has wetted-out cannot breathe. I do agree though that tiple-point was at least as good as Goretex at the time, but the name Goretex has an unhealthy dominance in the market making it very difficult for new materials to break through.
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RobinS, The face fabric materials used with Gortex membrane have to meet certain criteria in the weave construction and it mainly a loose weave to enable water vapour to pass through the membrane and the face fabric. The Tripple Point membrane and fabric were made as one item ie fabric and membrane together, the recharging of the face fabric on Tripple Point was done by applying heat, either direct with an iron, the best way, or by tumble dry, this used to realign the negative particles in the face and the membrane, water is negative charge and so was the outer face fabric, the laws of physics then applied, 2 negatives repel each other and so the outer face fabric repeled the water.
Gortex face fabrics are loose weave with a chemical DWR treatement applied to top up the water repelency of the face fabric after washing cycles, products such as Nikwax were developed in association with Gore Technologies to provide consumers with a way of reproofing the face fabric.
Tripple point did/does a very good job of breathing well even when the face fabric starts to wet out, this does however depend on the temperature variant between your body on the inside and the temperatur outside the garment, with the body generating heat and moisture inside the garment at a steady rate it would allow moisture to push through even wetted out face fabric.
The same priciple works superbly with Paramo kit, its not designed or marketed to be a waterproof garments, but in truth its the only kit I can hand on heart say that I have never ever been wet in. The design in the smocks that we were issued through MRT are a 3 layer construction.
An inner wicking fabric, a middle "pump liner" of a different material and an outer face fabric. The only treatment applied to all 3 fabrics is Nikwax proofing.
When working hard the 3 layers suck the moisture from your body extremely quickly and you remain dry even in 90mph driving rain on top of the Carneddau etc.
Wearing a rucksack makes no difference, I have never had water force through due to shoulder strap pressure.
Right Im stopping there, you can tell I like Paramo a lot  I dont use Paramo bottoms as for me my legs dont generate enough moisture for the system to work well for me, so I stick to traditional membrane kit for my legs, currently Arcteryx as they are the only company using Gortex consistently well ie they dont leak! other brands I have used and field tested that use Gortex have not been very good, with garments lasting anything from 1 day to 4 months before letting water in, I think this is due to far east construction.
Rab kit is also very good although I havent tried the EVENT products yet, some of my friends and other guides give it mixed reviews.
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You know it makes sense.
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brian, Yea Spyder kit is damn ugly
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