 Poster: A snowHead
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My mum has decided she would like some kind of GPS system for Hillwalking, I know nothing about this and am looking for recommendations. It would have to be super easy to use, she wouldn't need any complicated functions, as she described it to me she just wants something that will show her which way to go if the mist comes down. As cheap as possible and would be able to buy from the US if that made it cheaper.
Any advice....
Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I use a Garmin Etrex summit - works fine for me and is relatively simple to use.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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lynseyf, I'm looking seriously at this, though I've Googled around a bit to find some reviews and it seems there are still some glitches to be ironed out. I love the idea of a stand-alone unit into which one can simply slot OS map cards. Not cheap, though (yet).
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lynseyf, I'm interested to know more about GPS for hillwalking too. I'm used to GPS for use sailing, where the problems are a bit different. But there are some parallels. The first use of GPS is to tell you where you are. It's fantastic for that, though unless you are good at your lat and long to translate your position onto th map you need a position relative to a point (e.g. you are 2.46 miles bearing 181 from Scafell. Or whatever). However, to tell you where to go, the GPS can be seriously misleading. At sea, the straight line between where you are and where you want to be might take you through the middle of the Isle of Wight, or over a sandbank. In the mountains it could take you over the edge of a cliff. It's not a substitute, in either case, for having a good map and knowing how to use it. Is your mum thoroughly familiar with using a compass?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If I'm working with a group, then I'll usually have a Garmin Etrex with me. The only thing that I use it for is to give me a fix on my position (10 figure grid reference). From that I then use the map/compass. If I was to use a GPS to navigate with, then I'd want one with better mapping - but then you run into issues over battery life etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, my internet connection here is too slow to see your link - sounds like a chart plotter. Very clever. The next thing is to link it direct to your steering system, sit on your backside and be carried round the mountain whilst you sleep. 
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I have a Garmin Vista cx GPS for hillwalking and cycling, plus occasionally skiing. It is very good except that you need to buy emaps at additional expense, about £125 for the gb topo and the maps are not that good, if you do get a garmin make sure that you get the "H" model as the aerial is much better.
For your mum if she is not geekey I would recommend the Sat Map which uses OS maps on SD cards, rather than the poorer quality vector maps used in most GPSs. They are expensive as you also need to buy the emaps as an extra but only need to get them for the areas you walk. They currently have no maps for other than the UK.
pam w, most GPSs will also give position in OS grid units. I agree you also need to have and know how to use a map and compass. To plan a route you normally need to do this on a PC and upload it. my GPS has mapping capability but the Garmin maps are poor and often do not show paths. The sat map renders 24k and 50k OS maps and may well completely replace the need to carry a map, but not for me..
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pam w,
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It's not a substitute, in either case, for having a good map and knowing how to use it.
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Indeed, not least because one cannot always get a signal. But you can download, on to ordinary satnavs like Garmin, routes (including waymarks) from websites such as Go4awalk, there's no need just to walk in the dangerous straight line which you mention. I like the idea of the Satmap in my link above, because it arises out of a formal partnership with Ordnance Survey, and I'll be able to match up what's on the screen with the map that I will certainly be carrying as well.
Actually, lynseyf, you might find some satnav comparisons on the Go4awalk website - here, there's all sorts of useful information on there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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jbob, snap - more or less! 
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pam w,
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The first use of GPS is to tell you where you are. It's fantastic for that, though unless you are good at your lat and long to translate your position onto th map you need a position relative to a point (e.g. you are 2.46 miles bearing 181 from Scafell. Or whatever).
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You can set up the Etrex so it gives your position in ordanance survey grid coordinates, so you then just read your position off on the map. You can also put in Gotos in OS coordinates, and the GPS will direct you to that point, or set way marks as you are walking, which you can also set gotos to. Its worth checking the accuracy of the GPS with a known point, as if it is set up with the wrong base grid for the map you are using it will produce significant errors. Easily fixed via the configuration screen though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks for all the replies, the Etrex sounds quite good and looks to be reasonably cheap, I have sent her some links.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I use a Garmin Foretrex, no fancy maps or anything, but the batteries last a couple of full days, and it gives your grid ref (OS or all sorts of foriegn grids - was fine in Dolomites, or lat/long), distance travelled, average speed etc. As you wear it on your wrist it is always easily usable - and you can pick one up for £70 or so.
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I have eTrex Summit (really old version - newer one is better), and can't fault them. I'd recommend those with H in the model name with the hi sensitivity receiver - should work better in forests.
For me, AA batteries is essential - it's easy to have spare pair in your bag, but if it's a GPS with built in batteries and they run out, then you're stuffed. Electronic compass can be handy (ie work when stationary) although they're rubbish in comparison to the real thing.
On the otherhand... maps and compasses don't have batteries 
Was tempted to upgrade to a Colorado (also AA powered), now that most critical bugs have been sorted.
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You know it makes sense.
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I've got the eTrex h. Excellent basic piece of kit. Can easily be hooked up to a PC to allow upload of way points from mapping software.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As a professional Mountaineer I can say one thing...get the most simple to use GPS going and use it as a back up to map reading and compass skills. If your mum want's a gps because she thinks it will keep her safe in the mountains in low visibility, bad weather or darkness then she should have a re-think and possibly learn some basic navigation skills from competant friends, a walking club or by going on a course, this is not a plug for my services by the way.
Im a team member of Ogwen Valley Mountain Rescue and want nothing more than people to be able to get the right skills to stay safe in the hills, this way I get to stay in bed, or have that glass of wine without fear of being called out to help lost walkers and climbers, something that happens on a regular basis.
As for a simple gps, Garmin Geco or Etrex.
Cheers
Mark
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Poster: A snowHead
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lynseyf, Hi, mark handford, and the others are talking a lot of sense here.
Everyone should learn basic navigation skills first. Plenty of training courses about. Map and compass first, if you cannot use them then, a GPS may just lull you into a false sense of security. To progam and use one properly you need the affore mentioned skills.
Assuming that is so, GPS, IMHO Garmin are good, a basic etrex would suffice. Although for a true OS map GPS you cannot beat a SatMap Active 10. OS maping is very expensive though. I have used both SatMap and a Garmin 60CSx and they are excellent toys!  btw, neither have battery issues, when used correctly. Have fun, be safe and let mark handford, have that glass of wine.
Will be using the full compliment this weekend in the Lake District, maps, compass GPS et al. The forecast:-
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| Widespread hill fog with showers or longer spells of rain. Some heavier bursts are likely, perhaps with thunder. Wind: South or southwest 35mph gusts 50mph / 10C / Well above the summits. |
Should be rather entertaining....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Like most things, use GPS as A tool rather than THE tool and you'll be fine. Add it in the mix with common sense, a map and a compass and you should be fine.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I suspect that basic navigational skills (learnt in my case from my Dad when I was about 10 - we used to crouch behind dry stone walls in the Brecon Beacons boiling water on his Primus stove to make some tea in the kind of weather described above) are soon going to be a thing of the past for an entire generation. Even the ability to read a straightforward road map is disappearing for the SatNav generation and whereas using a map gives you a basic geographical "feel" (e.g. Scotland is "up there", East Anglia is "over there", Wales is "over the other side", to put it no more finely) relying on Satnav probably doesn't have the same effect. And I enjoy sitting in an evening with a glass of something and a map trying to plan a route for a walk which won't make my husband moan too much (he has a limited tolerance for steep climbs!). Ditto with a chart when planning a trip in a boat. Punching waypoints into a GPS just doesn't have the same appeal.
mark handford, big thanks and respect to you and your colleagues; one of the things my Dad instilled into me was a huge regard for the skills of Mountain Rescue!
My nav skills in the hills are very rusty; I could do with some upgrading and would really enjoy a course. Might think about that. I was walking round here yesterday, with a first class French topo map, but was aware that at times my reading of the contours was pretty flakey.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w,
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My nav skills in the hills are very rusty; I could do with some upgrading and would really enjoy a course. Might think about that. I was walking round here yesterday, with a first class French topo map, but was aware that at times my reading of the contours was pretty flakey.
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I did a great one day course in the Peak District earlier this year, run by the National Park rangers and completely free of charge. It was brilliant, one ranger and a trainee to every five people or so, I learned (and have now forgotten again!) such a lot.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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the ability to read a straightforward road map is disappearing
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My wife's never found hers so if you see it anywhere please PM me...
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Thanks for the advice. My mum is planning on doing a course but I think she feels she would feel more confident on the hills if she had GPS as a back-up. At the moment she has been hill walking for approx. 20 years and still wouldn't go on a walk she had been on many times unless there was a more experienced person there who would take "responsibility" for map reading etc. I think it is as much a confidence issue as a skills one.
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Hurtle, sounds excellent. Maybe a good way to use a murky weekend in November. I did a "refresher" sailing course in November 2 years ago, and it was very useful - my basic instincts were still OK but I'd spent too long using a GPS and had forgotten some of the basics (took me so long to do a running fix we'd have been on the rocks if it had mattered!). Novembers are so useless, generally. I like using them for doing something useful outdoors.
PS My husband can't read a map either - like Kruisler's wife - the ability is not universal but more widespread than it's going to be after a few generations of ever cheaper satnavs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, Sounds like a dirty weekend to me....
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Guvnor, Methinks that was the intended implication.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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lynseyf,
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she feels she would feel more confident on the hills if she had GPS as a back-up. At the moment she has been hill walking for approx. 20 years and still wouldn't go on a walk she had been on many times unless there was a more experienced person there who would take "responsibility" for map reading etc. I think it is as much a confidence issue as a skills one.
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I sympathise, that's exactly how I feel, though I don't mind taking joint responsibility, it's sole responsibility that scares me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I was bought an eTrek and though I can see the practical use of having one sometimes, I find it a bit depressing to think there are satellites to pinpoint every foot of the earth and that I have yet another bit of electronic kit. I go for a walk and go skiing to escape all that!
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I don't mind taking joint responsibility, it's sole responsibility that scares me.
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I'm willing to take sole responsibility when the task envisaged is within my competence - eg. I've skippered yachts across the channel from the Solent or Weymouth to Cherbourg and vice versa, not always in good weather (and once before the days of GPS!) but I wouldn't set out in the face of a nasty forecast, or with a very weak crew, etc and I would hesitate to be a skipper in a more difficult area (eg the Scilly Isles). I also know enough to judge whether the person supposedly in charge actually knows what they're doing (and if not, to opt out). However, there's really only room for one skipper. When the weather turns nasty and someone wants to set off home down the mountain by the shortest route, and someone else wants to take a longer way round which is more straightforward to navigate, there can only be one leader who makes that decision based on their own skills and the strength of the group.
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You know it makes sense.
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Navigation isn't difficult - I teach it to 17 yr olds and most of them pick up the basics pretty quickly - the hardest part is "refinding yourself" when you've lost track of where you are. That's where a GPS makes life an awful lot easier 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Navigation isn't difficult - I teach it to 17 yr olds and most of them pick up the basics pretty quickly - the hardest part is "refinding yourself" when you've lost track of where you are.
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Well yes, navigation isn't difficult when you know where you are! But being able to establish where you are (from a combination of your last known position, general course subsequently, and looking at what's around you (assuming you can see anything) is surely the whole point of navigation? At least when you're navigating around the hills, the ground stays still beneath your feet. If you're on the top of Scafell and stop for lunch for half an hour, you can be sure you're still there when you pack your bags and set off again!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Well, many thanks to whoever had a word with 'him upstairs' the only time I got wet was going out for evening meal in Keswick in the evening. The whole day out walking on Blencathra and Scales Fell there was Plenty of wind, but no rain whatsoever. I had a go with the map and compass under the eye of someone experienced with such things and they also showed me how the GPS functioned. The GPS certainly put a dot on the map, and as it showed a small section of the OS map you could relate it to the map, but the small screen, despite the ability to zoom in and out appeared to be the limiting factor. With a map it was easier to see the scale of where you were, had been and were going in the context of the entire area. The GPS was useful in showing how high you were and that was a good cross reference with where you thought you were on the map as it could be correlated with the contours. It was also kind of interesting to re-visit at the end of the day and see where you had actually been and how far you had walked. Outcome of walk was that the planned route was a bit over 10Km and final route taken was around 14Km. Reference to both systems, map/compass and GPS also gave twice as many reasons to stop and rest!! What quickly became clear was that either system could be flumoxed if the route on the map had been superseeded by a less direct, but clearly preferred (in terms of wear and tear) option, or if the route had become so overgrown that alternative routes had been cut by many walkers in different directions through tall heather and gorse. I think because we had good visability and lots of visual clues that we probably referred to the GPS for confirmation of where we thought we were rather more than using the map/compass, but the route in good conditions we had wasn't too difficult to spot. We did do the odd bit of turning round and backtracking, esp. as the excessive wind did make the odd path seem rather less than safe to walk. From little I saw I can't see any reason, why as every has said above, both systems can't be complimentary, but of course that does imply knowledge of how to use both.
Guvnor, Hurtle Dirty weekend? Moi? I think 'Educational' would be a better description!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, you've made a good point there about maps and paths. The OS maps show the rights of way, not where the path is on the ground. When navigating it is important to know that most features on a map can look wrong. The one certanty is the the contour lines, and you should always use them as your main point of reference. Metalled roads and large bodies of water are the next useful feature, as these don't change too often, and if they do, you can usually pick out the original line. Buildings/walls/fences are notorious for being different on the ground to the map, and paths are generally not worth bothering with as a reliable feature.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Elizabeth B,
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paths are generally not worth bothering with as a reliable feature.
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Perhaps not, but they're sometimes quite handy for walking on.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum,
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Dirty weekend? Moi? I think 'Educational' would be a better description!
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Not mutually exclusive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, Well, its great when people respond just as you thought they might - I couldn't work out exactly how that might be put, but I do know more about maps now
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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An interesting thread to read, Lots of good comments.
As a special offer to snowheads I am happy to run a free 1 day Beginners Navigation Course in Snowdonia. This will probably be sometime in October and on a weekend date although if there are people interested in a midweek date this may also be an option.
What qualifies me to be able to do this? One I'm the boss and if I want to run a free course I can! I also hold both Summer and Winter Mountain leader awards, Im a NNAS Gold level provider and I also work training Summer Mountain leaders and also training and assessing all levels of the D of E awards. Im a member of the Mountain Leader Training Association (MLTA), The BMC and Ogwen Valley MRT. Needless to say I have been in the hills and mountains of the world for a number of years.
This is not a "company plug" just a free 1 day course to help some of you gain knowledge and confidence that may prove useful one day, to others it may be the chance to brush up on existing skills.
If anyones interested just PM me.
Cheers
Mark
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mark handford, a very generous offer. I hope folk take you up on it. If you start a separate thread, linking it to this one, I'll bet you'll get a lot of interest.
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FAQ
At the very least to cancel some of the rain.
