 Poster: A snowHead
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| kuwait_ian wrote: |
| An aside - I wonder - if we did a poll - how many here could list the 10 FIS piste rules, without checking first?? |
This question was posed by Ian on the 'Helmets' thread. Not wanting to go off topic...
What are they? Where can they be found? Being a novice 3rd week skier and still in ski school playing 'follow my leader', shouldn't we have had this discussion? Even if it's just pointing in the direction to look?
Common sense says that you look up the slope before moving off and that if you stop - move to the side. Are these part of them?
Come on you experts, help us novices! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Michelle, posted about this somewhere else, but there are all the FIS rules on the club site at FIS rules, piste etiquette (PS don't know how it happened, but I wrote that, not Ian....)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 25-02-04 17:37; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sadly, by asking for experts, you have made reply virtually impossible!
You do see plenty of posters around resorts though.
Michelle, mostly they are common sense things about keeping out of the way on piste, though the most important one is to be aware of a skier/boarder below you and make sure that you can avoid them.
On that subject, I got (I think rightly) yelled at when I made a late and sudden decision to stop on a schuss down to a lift and wait for my wife. No one in their right mind would have turned suddenly and stopped where I did and I was lucky not to be flattened by a fast skier going down the schuss. Technically I was in the right, but I feel there should be something about not making unannounced turns. If I had been hit I think I would have been the one doing the apologising. What do others think?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Elizabeth B, ah but my cartoons are prettier 
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| Chris Bish wrote: |
Sadly, by asking for experts, you have made reply virtually impossible!
You do see plenty of posters around resorts though.
Michelle, mostly they are common sense things about keeping out of the way on piste, though the most important one is to be aware of a skier/boarder below you and make sure that you can avoid them.
On that subject, I got (I think rightly) yelled at when I made a late and sudden decision to stop on a schuss down to a lift and wait for my wife. No one in their right mind would have turned suddenly and stopped where I did and I was lucky not to be flattened by a fast skier going down the schuss. Technically I was in the right, but I feel there should be something about not making unannounced turns. If I had been hit I think I would have been the one doing the apologising. What do others think? |
Unannounced turns are fine (or we'd all have indicators), but you may have fallen foul of stopping in narrow parts on the piste and so not being off to one side. That's assuming it was a narrow schuss. If not then (s)he shouldn't have been following you like that so a turn would cause a problem.
The fast skier should have given him/herself plenty of time and space to avoid you, as you may not have stopped, you may have fallen. Without having seen the "incident" to call it properly, I'd say 6 and two threes, to me, but the faster, uphill skier should take most blame for not allowing for unknowns.
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Have just read it. To be perfectly honest it comes down to common sense and having a bit of respect for fellow skiers. In Tignes last Dec our instructor taught us piste rules about looking before skiing off, never just stopping in the middle of the piste and giving those in front of you plenty of space when skiing past them (sadly not often in my case - it's usually the otherway around!).
They didn't mention ski lifts. One irritating thing people sometimes do is get off the chairlift and immediately stop to put gloves on etc. instead of skiing clear. 
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I've just noticed that this topic has been discussed on the "Queues" thread.
Since getting smacked into from behind isn't a lot of fun, how about a sort of hand signal? If you are skiing with a group at mixed pace you can find yourself suddenly spotting your faster companions on the opposite side of the piste and you need to cross the entire traffic flow to join them.
I have also noticed that quite often on runs a sort of unofficial "fast lane" appears down one side of a piste. Now I am not for one minute suggesting any sort of traffic control, but if you aren't very quick (and I'm not) it seems reasonable to keep that clear and not cross it without warning. I think I am just talking self-preservation here! I'm too old to heal quickly. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skanky, that's about it, rule 6 makes that pretty clear. "Except on wide pistes stops must be made at the side of the piste. One must not stop in
narrow places or where it is difficult to be seen from above." Of course if you fall over that doesn't apply, so anyone colliding with you from above would have to prove that you stopped deliberately in an inappropriate place, and this would still only remove part of the uphill skier's responsibility...
What should be made very clear is in the FIS notes to the rules, and therefore less easily spotted:
"The FIS Rules apply to all skiers and snowboarders. The skier or snowboarder is obliged to be familiar with and to respect them.
If he fails to do so, his behaviour could expose him to civil and criminal liability in the event of an accident."
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I've just remembered something someone suggested.
Should novice skiers have a flourescent armband or similar (like the green 'L' on newly passed drivers). At least the person behind would know they are novices and may put in an unexpected turn etc. They also may be stopped venturing onto a piste beyond their capabilities. The schools could issue them to novices in their classes for the duration of the holiday.
I realise this sounds a bit nanny state, but there is some sense in this somewhere.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Beverley, Beginners don't venture far from the resort and/or blues. Advanced skiers have plenty of opportunity to let rip higher up in the relatively uninhabited areas. If they're skiing uncontrollably in the approach to the resort, they're just being plain stupid. It's not up to the beginners to wear L plates for goodness sake - anyone colliding with someone from behind because they're skiing beyond their ability should have their lift passes taken away at least for the day.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Chris Bish wrote: |
I've just noticed that this topic has been discussed on the "Queues" thread.
Since getting smacked into from behind isn't a lot of fun, how about a sort of hand signal? If you are skiing with a group at mixed pace you can find yourself suddenly spotting your faster companions on the opposite side of the piste and you need to cross the entire traffic flow to join them.
I have also noticed that quite often on runs a sort of unofficial "fast lane" appears down one side of a piste. Now I am not for one minute suggesting any sort of traffic control, but if you aren't very quick (and I'm not) it seems reasonable to keep that clear and not cross it without warning. I think I am just talking self-preservation here! I'm too old to heal quickly. |
One advantage of placing your pole before a turn (whether you need to or not) is that it tends to indicate to someone behind that you're about to turn that way. Not foolproof, quite late (esp. at speed) and not everyone does it.
If you realise the your mates are across the piste, have a look back up (stop if necessary) and wait for a gap before crossing. If there's a "fast lane" (never noticed one meself, but that doesn't mean anything), keep an eye further up the slope and allow the time it'd take you to get there. If the slope's too busy meet them further down or in the bar 
Often beginners (I always did this, too) are worried by faster skiers who are effectively already past (level on the slope, ahead of you, and a metre or two ahead - depending on your speed), which can make it seem worse than it is. However, it's better to think that way, than the other way around.
If someone doesn't look in control (and you soon learn how to spot them) wait until they're well past before setting off as they can affect people upslope still.
All that makes it sound much more complicated than it is. We do very similar things crossing roads and road junctions. It's just we're more used to the dynamics of roads.
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I'm fairly sure I'd have yelled at Chris Bish myself, although I'd like to think I'd have left enough room to have been able to yell at him from a safe distance!!
I think skiers lower down the slope definitely must have a responsibility not to make totally unpredictable random turns or stops, especially in places where this can result in other skiers having nowhere to go (other than into a bank or off a drop), and particularly on a schuss or path where people are likely to be skiing fast or it's likely to be crowded.
Nothing winds me up more than when skiers, seemingly with a death wish, take the high and almighty "I was lower down the slope so I can do what I like and it's entirely your fault" attitude.
Hmmm, that definitely developed into a rant!! Still, it seems common sense to me - everyone needs to be considerate to other skiers, wherever they are on the slope.
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You know it makes sense.
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| PG wrote: |
| Advanced skiers have plenty of opportunity to let rip higher up in the relatively uninhabited areas. If they're skiing uncontrollably in the approach to the resort... |
they aren't advanced skiers
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 25-02-04 18:26; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You're quite right PG. Those words should have stayed in the keyboard
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Poster: A snowHead
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But....what about those that go onto a piste that is beyond their ability (and plenty do)? By the same score, experienced skiers could reasonably expect similar ability skiers to be there.
The other problem with armbands is how to enforce them? It's not hard to imagine some people taking them off when it suits them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Matthew Clarkson wrote: |
I'm fairly sure I'd have yelled at Chris Bish myself, although I'd like to think I'd have left enough room to have been able to yell at him from a safe distance!!
I think skiers lower down the slope definitely must have a responsibility not to make totally unpredictable random turns or stops, especially in places where this can result in other skiers having nowhere to go (other than into a bank or off a drop), and particularly on a schuss or path where people are likely to be skiing fast or it's likely to be crowded.
Nothing winds me up more than when skiers, seemingly with a death wish, take the high and almighty "I was lower down the slope so I can do what I like and it's entirely your fault" attitude.
Hmmm, that definitely developed into a rant!! Still, it seems common sense to me - everyone needs to be considerate to other skiers, wherever they are on the slope. |
You're right, in that respect and that's covered in the rules, too. Stopping on a narrow schuss is, as I said above not right and so I said it was 6 & two 3's - though as the above skier missed him, maybe that proportion's wrong, unless it was purely by accident.
Beginners will always make "random" turns as they are beginners who are learning when and how to turn, as well as the old, "I'll turn here...no here...no here" syndrome (I often ended up off the piste because of that).
Also, the uphill skier should always be able to avoid a skier who falls, and nothing's more unannounced than a fall...except the one I did a few years ago, where my brother would have had time to get a camera and taka a light-meter reading, before I actually fell.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Matthew Clarkson wrote: |
| I think skiers lower down the slope definitely must have a responsibility not to make totally unpredictable random turns or stops, especially in places where this can result in other skiers having nowhere to go (other than into a bank or off a drop), and particularly on a schuss or path where people are likely to be skiing fast or it's likely to be crowded |
Well, FIS doesn't agree with you - predictability isn't an issue. Skiers can turn in whichever direction they think fit, that's the way it is. If I see someone yelling at a relative novice that has done just that, then I'd yell at the yeller! On the other hand the issue of deliberately stopping is different, as discussed elsewhere. But try proving they have deliberately stopped and not just lost their balance/felt ill/frozen - if you hit them, whatever you think, you bear most of the responsibility.
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I think what annoys me is not beginners, who tend to be going fairly slowly and so it's quite easy to work out how much room to leave round them to cover all eventualities, or people falling over - they just fall and it's easy to go round them whatever. My problem is with people who think they can ski well and are going reasonably fast but think they can just do anything they like with no consideration for anyone else, simply because they're lower down the slope. They're the ones which can cause real problems!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mark Hunter wrote: |
| But....what about those that go onto a piste that is beyond their ability (and plenty do)? By the same score, experienced skiers could reasonably expect similar ability skiers to be there. |
Bound to happen, but's it's not something that can be 'policed'. Most of us have made that mistake, early on!
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Thanks for the links, PG and Elizabeth B. Interesting to read, although pretty much common sense.
| Beverley wrote: |
| Should novice skiers have a fluorescent armband or similar (like the green 'L' on newly passed drivers). |
A good idea Beverley. I don't think it would be like a Nanny State. As with the green 'L' or 'P' plate, it would only be worn by someone who wanted to stand out as inexperienced.. Personally – I would like a big amber flashing beacon stating: KEEP CLEAR attached to me!!! I would certainly have more respect for that persons likely inability to control their speed or direction (voice of experience ) I know that we shouldn’t put ourselves into situations that are beyond our ability, and I don’t mean that this should enable novices to enter black runs with the hope that the same respect would be given. But graduating from the green to the blues, for some of us, is a big step. It certainly hasn’t come naturally to me, and the control really needs to be thought about and planned. Often my movements are lagging behind what my brain’s telling me to do. In those few seconds my speed picks up and with sometimes a little bit of panic setting in, my turn isn’t as controlled as it ought to be. I would be more aware of the person with the armband, flashing beacon or whatever and give them that little more leeway than normal… totally with self preservation in mind, of course!
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Though I'd recommend some people not going on certain runs, the notes to Rule 8 say that anyone can go anywhere dependant on closed areas. Your last point, though probably a valid one (though again, not something I can recall seeing), is covered by Rule 1 - however, as rule 3 says, the skier down the slope has priority. The best thing is to let them get away from you or carefully work a way round them.
The notes explain the rules quite well, I think.
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Skanky, you've lost me!!! What did I write??? I didn't write people should stick to certain runs, although like you I'd recommend them to!, simply because I remember when I was younger wanting to try to get down anything whether I could do it well or not!! I think people have every right to push themselves and try challenging stuff, and they're rarely a danger to anyone else. If someone's way out of their depth on a mogul field it's pretty obvious from a mile off - and usually quite a laugh to watch!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skanky, I agree with you on pole plants, but generally if you're planting your right (and about to turn right), you are skiing leftwards on the piste - therefore for someone behind you, your body may well be blocking the view of your pole plant. Especially if you do nice wrist-flick plants!
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| Matthew Clarkson wrote: |
| Skanky, you've lost me!!! What did I write??? I didn't write people should stick to certain runs, although like you I'd recommend them to!, simply because I remember when I was younger wanting to try to get down anything whether I could do it well or not!! I think people have every right to push themselves and try challenging stuff, and they're rarely a danger to anyone else. If someone's way out of their depth on a mogul field it's pretty obvious from a mile off - and usually quite a laugh to watch!!! |
ooops I'm sorry, that was Mark Hunter. Read through it all too quickly as I'm about to go and get a train. Many apologies to you both.
Incidentally, if I'm coming over all holier-than-thou, that's not my intention, so I do apologise. All the above is merely my interpretation of the rules.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ok, this has got sufficiently specific that I've now read all the FIS rules and notes! I think the second part of the notes on Rule 5 hints at what I'm getting at, ie it's possible to put in a pretty fast carving turn and end up very quickly somewhere where other skiers would not have anticapted.
Also I think it's harder to predict where everyone will be on the slope now, partly because slopes are often so busy meaning there's so much to anticipate, and also because different skiing styles (due to new carving skis) plus boarders make it harder to anticipate other peoples turns.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mark Hunter wrote: |
| But....what about those that go onto a piste that is beyond their ability (and plenty do)? |
How does this, along with the rule that requires that you be in control at all times, square with the philosophy that you have to push yourself beyond your limits to improve? I very rarely push myself (as I always like to ski in control), which is probably why I don't improve much! Or have I got the wrong end of the stick about something?
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Dave Burt, An excellent English instructor in 2 Alpes once taught the valuable lesson that you make little improvement technically pushing yourself to get your skiing right under pressure, on a steep slope, at speed.... on the contrary you're more likely than not just to reinforce all the bad habits, and just execute them more quickly!
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You know it makes sense.
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PG, That has certainly been my experience. Therefore I try and ski such slopes slowly, and remain in control. But is that improving my technique? I guess it must do over time, but I keep getting told (including by instructors!) that my technique is good enough to be skiing harder on the steeps, though as soon as I try my technique goes to pot and I no longer feel entirely in control! Chicken and egg perhaps. I think I need more practice - fortunately I'm off on Sunday!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hey,Matthew Clarkson, I was admitting to an error, not boasting about it. I have sympathy with your view that people down the hill should not have carte blanche to do anything at all.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
How does this, along with the rule that requires that you be in control at all times, square with the philosophy that you have to push yourself beyond your limits to improve? I
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Does being "in control" mean that you are at the limit of your ability Dave, or just that you are in your "comfort zone"? The concept of "control" is what holds many people back from making the breakthrough into more advanced skiing, but it depends what you mean by the term. In order to progress you have to "surrender" to the forces in a sense, which is what many equate with "losing control", but the key is to harness those forces (which are bigger than you, let's face it) to your advantage. Feel the force young Master!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Come and ski in civilized Japan where both parties will claim responsibility and apologize profusely. Unfortunately this did not happen earlier this month when an older skier broke the leg of an elementary school child. This type of hit and run incident is extremely rare here and was therefore headline news.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Zao, How do insurance companies deal with this approach 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| PG wrote: |
| Zao, How do insurance companies deal with this approach |
Japan does not have a litigious culture as such, but of course has started following big brother across the Pacific. When traffic accidents occur, blame is apportioned by the police and there is rarely a case of 100% Vs 0%. To keep society running smoothly etc one has to be prepared to accept 5 or even 10%.......appears very unfair to Western eyes! In the case of serious skiing accidents, if police are unavailable a ski patrol report will suffice for insurance companies who will then negotiate with each other. Negotiation rather than confrontation is important in this culture.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Welcome to the darkside!!
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FAQ
