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Groomed Pistes Producing Bad Skiers

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I just listened to a radio report saying that Austrian doctors have been dealing with an increasing number of serious injuries requiring surgery, knee and spine injuries in particular. This increase has been attributed to better equipment and better grooming of pistes producing bad skiers. These skiers are unfit and the better grooming of pistes and modern equipment allows them to ski fast without the necessary all round skills required to do so

This is the view of a body of Austrian doctors and not necessarily my view.

Discuss.
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rayscoops,

oooo..worms, lots of them...!!! Laughing
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I would imagine the main correlation with number of injuries is number of skiers. People will always ski up to, and slightly beyond, their level of competence (me included), whether the pistes are groomed or not.
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I disagree with the view... sort of.

I would re-phrase it: Grromed pistes producing one-dimensional skiers.

You can still be a very good skier on a groomed piste, showing good techinique and biomechanics etc. However, if you don't encounter 'other' challenges then you are more likely to get it wrong when you come up against them (bumps for example). The injury doesn't necessarily come from being a 'bad' skier per se, but one that is not rounded, who hasn't had practice in adapting a fairly sound technique elsewhere to this new environment.

Even on groomed pistes you have to deal with differing snow conditions and cut up runs at the end of a spring (soft snow) day.

You could argue that being one-dimensional makes you a bad skier... I would disagree with that too. It makes you a one-dimensional skier, who can have excellent technique elsewhere on the mountain.
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Problem is the pistes are getting crowded and speed is going up on them - but skill and consideration is not. Best to go off piste? Yup - but watch out the same numpties who are causing the problem on piste are not triggering avalanches from above. Another solution? Find a less crowded resort. There are some good ones still around.
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Laundryman - The report specifically mentioned unfit and unskilled skiers as the ones getting injured, skiing too fast for their skill level and better equipment and better prepared pistes affords them this 'option', the inference being that groomed pistes and modern equipment is producing bad skiers. Edit - bad skiers perhaps defined as being those who ski at speeds in excess of what their skill level dictate and groomed pistes allow this to happen
Edit again - the proposition being I suppose that ungroomed pistes would limit the speed of these skiers and limit the serious injuries


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 12-04-08 11:00; edited 2 times in total
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skisimon, agree with all of that. Groomed slopes are excellent for learning new technique but to develop that technique further you have to ski in more complex conditions. For too long I avoided those complex conditions so I'm not a very well rounded skier, excelling in some areas but rather pitiful in others.
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Agree with skisimon. If you ski all day and on all pistes at different times of the season, on-piste skiing will give you plenty of variety to develop many skills. I think it might be the 'fair weather' once a year skiier who perhaps becomes used to one type of terrain only. Perhaps also, some people don't seek follow up instruction as they move onto different levels?
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If you ski properly then yes groomed pistes are a benefit, but the report is not referring to this type of responsible skier, it is referring to unfit skiers who ski beyond their ability because prepared pistes assist this, maybe a bit like the German autobahns allowing car drivers to drive faster than their skill or experience would reasonably allow
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Equipment has quite obviously changed over the last 30 years (to take an arbitary time period), but I don't perceive major advances in grooming in that period. Have I missed something?
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Lots of skiers have holes in their skiing armoury but the more you try different things the better you get at trying those different things.
If you ski well groomed runs a lot...you might look very good on them, but then not be able to cope with ice or some such. Never a good idea to avoid something just because it takes you out of your comfort zone as the confidence ..maybe false confidence.. you build on well groomed runs can be whacked completely when you hit trickier stuff.

Ski the whole mountain as is.... will help give you some good skills, but you'll still maybe suffer somewhere.

I've had this quandry for ages...lots of lessons to perfect this or that technique against a exploritory quest which will expose any shortcomings in technique, but also gives you confidence that you can ski down most of the situations you get yourself in... With only a certain a mount of hours/weeks on snow per year, this is a tough call. I doubt there is a win-win answer unless you have unlimited time on snow..
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I would think that personal fitness (or lack of it) would contribute to self-injury, whereas skiing too fast and not fully in control would contribute to both self injury and that of others. Well groomed pistes and easy to use gear would (I think) contribute more to the latter than the former.

In other words, lardies like me are only a danger to themselves (I ski SLOW Embarassed and in control) as their bodies might not be up to the stresses of skiing, whereas young (usually) idiots who tear round easy blues and greens full of beginners thinking they're Herman Maier after 3 weeks on skis are a danger to everyone (and always have been). Evil or Very Mad
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It is a many faceted problem. Better piste grooming, certainly, technological advance of skis making "skiing" easier, yep. Also because the latest equipment makes it easier, then I wonder whether fewer people take lessons for longer and hence develop poor technique and do not need to be as fit, leading to a higher rate of self-inflicted attrition. Skiing is also relatively affordable and accessible compared to say 20-30 years ago so more and more people go and the slopes are more and more crowded.
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Ummm, I detect a little 'if you don't ski off piste, then you're not a good skier' hidden in some of these posts. In my view many of these injuries are caused by a combination of a lack of fitness and skill. The 'type' of person ( not wishing to sound snobbish or elitist here. I'm a working guy from Cornwall) has altered in recent years. In years gone by the average skier was an 'outdoors' type interested in keeping fittish and learning new skills. Now we have the 'get pissed and hit the slopes' brigade. Many of these guys hoon down slopes beyond their skill levels fuelled by lager and bravado. In my view Brit Snowboarders generally, are a bloody danger on the slopes (incoming!! Confused) for said reasons. All the gear and little idea with 'we'll teach you' mates.
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Lots of interesting and relevant points above. I avoid the places full of the Brits "fuelled by lager and bravado" and having skied around 12 weeks this season so far I have yet to see a collision. However, I'm not sure that if you have "excellent" technique on a groomed piste, you are not going to be able to ski other stuff - albeit it would be slower. Buy you do see loads of people coming down groomed runs with rubbish technique, and because they are on such a forgiving surface, they get away with it.

Quote:
Perhaps also, some people don't seek follow up instruction as they move onto different levels?


Key point, and definitely true.

The argument about old time skiers being more "outdoor types" is probably pretty true as well - and we have just had a couple of beginner visitors with absolutely zero stamina; we enjoyed their company very much but I was grateful they didn't injure themselves from being tired. I had booked them 2 hour private lessons but one of them could really not cope with so long. It hadn't occurred to me that 2 hours with a private instructor (a very good one) might be too long.

However, I do find it interesting that insurance costs for a week's ski holiday are still pretty reasonable; if the risks were that high, the premiums would be going up fast.
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Patch wrote:
Equipment has quite obviously changed over the last 30 years (to take an arbitary time period), but I don't perceive major advances in grooming in that period. Have I missed something?


I thought the same thing as you. Factors that have changed are a lot more terraforming in big resorts to produce boring "snowdome" type pistes. Snow making and greater lift capacity making mainn runs much more crowded.
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pam w wrote:
you do see loads of people coming down groomed runs with rubbish technique, and because they are on such a forgiving surface, they get away with it


I think this is the inference of the report, together with the fact that after two weeks on modern carvers skiers can do what used to take maybe six or eight weeks to master, so they have less experience but can hit higher speeds than in previous years. Also getting to resorts is easier and the 'one or two week a year let's get sloshed' skiers are quite prelevant perhaps compared to previous years
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I'm not sure whether speed is such a major factor. The more serious accidents that I have witnessed tend to be the slower speed wrenches that less experienced skiers suffer. Going over at speed one tends to skim and bounce and eventually come to a halt in one piece as long as contact hasn't been made with a tree or a lift pylon etc on the way. Perhaps. Confused


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 12-04-08 16:56; edited 1 time in total
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More skiers on the pistes, better kit and so on are all possible arguments but there is one really big one, not enough lessons.

People these days rarely seem to take lessons once they can manage to get down a red run in one piece, also many people ignore the skiers code and finally far too many people ski at speeds in excess of their ability to do controlled turns which means more collisions.
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I don't think groomed pistes produce bad skiers. What they do IMHO is allow bad skiers to ski faster than they should.
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D G Orf,
Quote:

People these days rarely seem to take lessons once they can manage to get down a red run in one piece, also many people ignore the skiers code


nail on head
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Lou, I agree. Many people say 'Oh - I could ski down a red run by the end of my first week'. It's a matter of control and awareness and reading the slope. It's also being able to ski and being aware of others on the slope.
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erica2004, to a certain extent, that's the problem with the piste grading. Beginners aspire to the day when they can say that they have skied a black. Now we all know that there is a big difference between getting down a black on skis and skiing it in control with style!! But when you're talking to people in the apres ski bar, no one asks how you skied it.
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I think this may well be dealing with the more major multiple injuries. However a large proportion of isolated knee injuries seem to be middle-aged women in slow-speed twisting falls on relatively flat slopes. Fitness, anatomy and inability of bindings to protect at slow speed are all factors in this.
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Elizabeth B, yep I skiied my first black back in March. Yes I was excited and pleased with myself, for being 'gutsy' but was quite open about the fact that I did it with zero style Embarassed It's given me a real taste though and I know exactly what I need to work on before I can do one with some finesse! There are many who are just so arrogant and refuse to see that they may need further instruction. IMHO of course........
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Grooming does produce very one dimensional skiers - I'm the first to retreat to the certainty of a groomer when its refrozen chop off piste, but there are skiers who just seem to freeze when their nice groomer starts to corn up etc.

I think modern supershaped piste skis do a certain amount of the skiing for you which means that you can be not totally in control and travelling at speed quite quickly. For me this usually means I get dumped on my back bottom first run out on a new pair of demo skis.

So I think its fair comment but whether it is objectively true I wouldn't know.
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fatbob wrote:
Grooming does produce very one dimensional skiers ...

I wonder if it works in the opposite direction? Are off-piste specialists less technically proficient on piste because they spend far less time developing their skills in that context?
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
I don't think groomed pistes produce bad skiers. What they do IMHO is allow bad skiers to ski faster than they should.

and modern ski design play's apart as well, back n the 70's it would take 2 weeks to ski a red competently nowadays it's the middle of the first week Confused

OR am I just old Toofy Grin
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Given that insurance companies like Snowcard charge more for options which include off-piste skiing (with off-piste snowboarding the most expensive option) either their underwriters are misinformed or there are fewer serious/expensive injuries on piste.
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boredsurfin, I take issue with the word competantly, I think that modern equipment and techniques in training have allowed people to progress more rapidly to the red run stage, however I feel this is possibly a disadvantage as those skiers then have problems when conditions are anything other than ideal, as a child I probably amassed up to 20 weeks worth of ski lessons before my parents judged that I was probably safe to ski on my own or at least at a distance from them i.e meet you at the lift, these days it seems to me that many people judge themselves to be at a similarly proficient stage after as little as 1 weeks lessons.

Even with the best part of 35 years skiing behind me or something like 120+ weeks worth of skiing I would only judge myself to be a competant skier who knows his limitations, if that means that I don't want to ski one day because of dreadful weather that's fine by me. Unfortunately many people judge that it's not a skiing holiday unless they ski themselves to exhaustion every day of their trips, possibly another reason for the increase in injuries ? I don't know Confused
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A good skier is the one with a big fat grin on their face at the end of the day. A one dimensional skier is the one who judges others by where and with what they ski. Cool
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
A good skier is the one with a big fat grin on their face at the end of the day. A one dimensional skier is the one who judges others by where and with what they ski. Cool


I agree. I spent a day on the bunny slope this year when I was feeling a bit "over" skiing and it was great to see the sheer amount of fun the kids were having. There is a reason that race coaching for kids involes blatting around all over the mountain on their GS skis though?
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davidof, Patch, 30 years ago piste machines were only just being invented! In the 70s we didn't have any groomed pistes. I think it started in the 80s (but am not sure). The speed of skiers was enormously much slower, and there were many fewer skiers on the piste. However it seems to me that most peeps these days only learn to slide around on well groomed pistes rather than actually learn to ski properly. OTOH I haven't noticed many more helicopters this year, more rotten manners, yes! Shocked rolling eyes
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Last week overheard several conversations where people were complaining about

"oh god it's snowing" (can you believe it Shocked )
"it's awful skiing in the wind" (a moderate breeze)
"I'm going in, it's raining"

If people are not skiing in what I would consider normal mountain weather, they cannot be getting experience in different conditions. We all know that pistes change quickly, however groomed. I generally ski all day, every day of a skiing holiday in all but the most foul weather, but know when to stop. Yeah I know everyone's idea of 'holiday' is different but it gives the opportunity to adapt skills to different snow conditions. This and continuing education........... Very Happy
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
A good skier is the one with a big fat grin on their face at the end of the day. A one dimensional skier is the one who judges others by where and with what they ski. Cool

Brilliant, I wish I had said that Very Happy
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easiski wrote:
more rotten manners, yes! Shocked rolling eyes
A sad indictment of modern society.

I think one of the keys to being a 'good' skier is knowing what your limits are. I'd say pretty much every skier, even some of the best in the world, is limited in some way as to their skiing. It is acknowleding this, and, as DG Orf has alluded to, doing something about it that will make you a better, safer skier.

I think this acknowledgment of limitations is what was evident even on the CSCF course I did last week. It was the first time I've seen a coach/instructor trying to get people over a psychological barrier which was stopping them from going faster... Shocked

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it is an impression I have got from looking at Epic alongside sH: UK skiers seem more likely to learn how to ski with an instructor (up to about third week level), however NA skiers seem more likely to take/continue to take lessons once they reach intermediate/advanced level to push their skiing on and learn how to ski different terrain. Maybe this is down to the skiing patterns, i.e. week holidays (of full on skiing) vs weekends and evenings (a more continual progression, not the families one chance on snow that year).

The reason why I did my CSIA was to improve my core technique, using that foundation, I have looked to take half day lessons here and there to work on bumps and off-piste. My bumps and off-piste skiing is not particularly good, but I know that, so I am able to practice in a knowing, controlled manner, and also look to learn off others in the shape of lessons.
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boredsurfin wrote:
Frosty the Snowman wrote:
I don't think groomed pistes produce bad skiers. What they do IMHO is allow bad skiers to ski faster than they should.

and modern ski design play's apart as well, back n the 70's it would take 2 weeks to ski a red competently nowadays it's the middle of the first week Confused

OR am I just old Toofy Grin


Agreed - a girl i knew went for the first time and boasted a black by the end of the week. i felt so stupid i hadn't progressed as quickly.

i've been twice now and only progressed to a red run on the last day of the most recent holiday...and even then it was an easy-ish one where i was guided down a portion at a time.

However there were a few blues that threw me - so it's back to the age old argurment that not all pistes are created equal - so you have someone like me who knows their limitations - but unless you have been down that piste, you don't know how steep, narrow etc it is. so i think that's sometimes where injuries occur - i can now do easy reds but unless i am shown which are easy and which are hard - i might end up going down something i struggle to cope with.

does that make sense?
(ps off tomorrow morning again! woop!) Very Happy
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rob@rar wrote:
fatbob wrote:
Grooming does produce very one dimensional skiers ...

I wonder if it works in the opposite direction? Are off-piste specialists less technically proficient on piste because they spend far less time developing their skills in that context?


I may fall in that category, although I am only an "offpiste specialist" in the sense that I ski offpiste most of the time. I certainly feel I could do with some race training and precise / high-angle carving
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I think it's possible to be an very good groomer skier with only steered turns, very few people actually carve (even those that think they do...)

I would probably say that 'off-piste specialists' are much less one-dimensional than groomer specialists. Much more finesse, balance and weighting control are needed for off-piste skiing (I say this as someone who hasn't really reached that level), the error margins are much smaller - you can get away with much more on a groomed run, it's a controlled environment, unlike off-piste where your body has to be well enough controlled that it can react to anything because there is much more variety (and many more suprises) away from the groomers.
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skisimon wrote:
Much more finesse, balance and weighting control are needed for off-piste skiing (I say this as someone who hasn't really reached that level), the error margins are much smaller


That might well be true for general on-piste skiing, although the most demanding skiing that I've ever tried (and failed at) is slalom on an icy piste. That was a more comprehensive test of my skiing abilities than anything else I've tried.
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