 Poster: A snowHead
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thefatcontroller, I've also heard good things about Spirit 1950. They also seem a generous bunch (one of them gave me and a couple of friends a lift around the lake at Tignes at 4am in the middle of a blizzard back in December, turning around and driving out of his way to get us back to our hotel. Can't fault that!  ).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yoda So where is this discussion happening! A site I frequent generally merges the threads when something like this happens. It is a pretty cool way of ensuring that dual conversations don't happen.
Anyway, I have a good experience of the St Anton ski School and have enjoyed skiing when much younger with ESF but it should be absolutely fine to have national qualifications of similar which can be used universally. What would happen if I am told that I cannot get a job in Geology because my A levels are different to a 'Bac' and my Honours degree is different to a French diploma. To my limited knowledge of this subject it just sounds like a restraint of trade.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
If you don't like the 'French way' then go and work somewhere else!
At the end of the day its just as hard for a French Instructor to finish their Diplome BEES as it is for a Brit...
When I worked in the States I jumped into the PSIA system...it gave a good insight into their way of thinking amongst other things. If I'd done more than one season in NZ I may well have jumped in there too. The days of the Empire are long gone folks, however there are plenty of Brits working quite happily (and legally) in France... Yes you do have to go through some paperwork, but show me something in France that doesn't involve lots of paperwork - mortgage agreements have to be initialled at the bottom of every page of the agreement (in duplicate), my other half is a physio and has to register with the French authorities in order to practise legally over here... |
here here....the speed test isn't some anti British thing - it's a requirement in quite a few countries. In Italy you have to pass before you can even teach as a trainee...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Jonnie, Hmm. Agreed it is a test which can keep anyone out, but for me the question - much dealt with on here before, is whether it is a useful test of a good ski teacher, especially when new-school, off-piste, freeride etc etc are so much more cutting edge disciplines these days. Doesn't even seem to translate into brilliant racing results for the French does it?
The trouble is so many of us have seen excellent but also extremely appalling service coming from the ESF that it is difficult not to enjoy it a bit when they seem to be getting a bit of a kicking.
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The Euro Test is Bollox, i know many awesome skiers, with the Eurotest, who can't teach due to poor attitude based on the fact they have the Eurotest. I think you ned to ski well, for sure, put being personable and aware of the needs of others will bring many skiers further than a simple, shrug of the shoulders and a certificate that says, 'I am fast.' I agree there needs to be a careful selection process, but believe the speed test was invented to ensure only those who grew up on skis, in resorts would qualify, therefore ensuring jobs for otherwise unemployable 'Mountain Hicks'.
I despise the Speed tests, what it stands for, it's elitism and and how it changes the out look of ski instructors. How many of the older, say 40+, ski instructors could pass the Euro test today? NONE, So it's bullshite. End Of.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One of the most important things I've taken out of Canadian and US training is that skiing is more a 'feel' sport than a 'visual' sport.
I advise my students (children and adults) to travel in the same direction as me, to make similar shapes, but NOT to follow in my tracks or mimic my exact movements.
I'm 188cm and with all my gear weigh 130kg.
Even if a student is the same size as me (very rare) if they "follow me" and follow in my tracks then they will not have as good an experience as I'm having and when I walk away they will have learned practically nothing.
The "follow me" school of thought which in my experience is a European teacher centred model is for the most part lazy teaching and smacks of 'look how good I can ski'.
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What's that supposed to mean?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| What's that supposed to mean? |
In my experience the continental European instructors that I've worked with in ski schools in and outside of Europe teach skiing in a very mechanical way in comparison with N American instructors who facilitate the student to 'feel' their way down the mountain.
And there are 3 very important words at the start of this paragraph 'in my experience'.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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some mis information here... you do NOT have to be an istd to teach in France. Actually quite a few ESF instructors are Trainees going through the French equivalent of BASI known as ENSA. Lots of ESF instructors are level 1,2 or 3 types in training.
They have a 4 level system and the trainees have a time limit to complete all the courses and levels or they are forced out. The poor quality follow me instruction for kids is generally down to the lower qualified trainees with bad english or old timers who are burned out. My wife and daughter have had consistently great lessons from full cert ESF guys.. ask when you make a booking for an ISTD
Also foreign qualification such as BASI, PSIA at ISIA level will allow you to work at a larger ski school like the ESF while you finish your ISTD training. You need to complete your ISIA tests and pass a time slalom race known as Test technique.
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Mike Pow, equally some might argue that the PSIA system (and I know having been there and done that) is somewhat 'fluffy' and focuses more on 'soft skills' and 're-selling/re-booking' than on concrete skiing development. Don't get me wrong I took LOADS of great stuff from PSIA, but my overall impression of teaching over there was lots of 'feel-good' 'hey that's AWESOME dude' at the expense of 'Why not try doing a bit more of this?'
Similarly encouraging people to try skiing lines different to those they normally make on their skis has a HUGE role to play in developing performance...
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| some mis information here... you do NOT have to be an istd to teach in France. Actually quite a few ESF instructors are Trainees going through the French equivalent of BASI known as ENSA. Lots of ESF instructors are level 1,2 or 3 types in training. |
But I don't think that that's the whole truth is it? Isn't it the case that "trainees" have to be in a centre de formation, where there is a ludicrously high requirement for the number of ISTDs per lower grade instructor, which in practice compels the majority of them to work through the ESF system?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| laundryman wrote: |
But I don't think that that's the whole truth is it? Isn't it the case that "trainees" have to be in a centre de formation, where there is a ludicrously high requirement for the number of ISTDs per lower grade instructor, which in practice compels the majority of them to work through the ESF system? |
That's my understanding, and I believe that the number of ISTDs required was increased this season or last, meaning that one of the Brit ski schools that had reached the (old) threshold no longer qualified. Centre de formation status is reserved for the large ski schools only.
Am I also right to think that the length or time that people without ISTD qualifications can work as Stagieres has been reduced to four years?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I know the ESF is incestial but the STD jibe is a little much guys... (what is ISTD?)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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plectrum, International Ski Teacher Diploma. It's the highest level teaching qualification.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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All French driving instructors have to be able to do a lap of Magny-Cours within 5 seconds of Alain Prosts best lap time. It's a good system.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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chris, Exactly
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have read this thread with interest and incomprehension. I cannot understand why just because someone can ski fast it makes them suitable to be an instructor unless it is as BernardC, says and is just to keep the numbers down and favour the locals.
Ability to do; does not mean ability to teach, so can someone explain in simple terms why you need to be able to ski fast in a straight line to teach skiing?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| chris wrote: |
| All French driving instructors have to be able to do a lap of Magny-Cours within 5 seconds of Alain Prosts best lap time. It's a good system. |
The system is designed to keep ex-racing drivers in work
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I'm not a fan of the principle behind the Eurotest (or indeed the Test Technique), becuase I believe the important thing whilst demonstating technique is how easily visible it is - this, I believe, is best judged by a course conductor who can tell that you ski very well and also have the skills to demo.
However, let's not forget that it is not the sole criteria to instruct in France - as well as passing the Test Technique and/or Eurotest, you still have to have the instructing qualification to go with it, and one would hope that the conductors of these courses can weed out the bad instructors (although, as I've previously said, that doesn't always seem to happen in France, {however could this be so due to certain language barriers?}).
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In my jpb I deal with lots of highly qualified people ie lawyers, architects, civil engineers etc. Some are very good at their job , some are average, some are useless. Same applies to ski instructors. Oh yes the same applies to Doctors except the useless ones are dangerous.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Of course an interesting parallel to all this is the States, where many resorts have only one ski school run by the same company as the lifts/restaurants etc. Is this protectionism by the Resort-owning Company?
Why do people not cry foul?
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skisimon, I'm going to disagree.
To my eyes ( and I have neither competence nor educational bent) - the Eurotest is no more than ski instruction's equivalent to the 11-plus or SAT equivalent. It doesn't make a good or accomplished instructor ... but it may keep the incompetent away from instruction.
I respect ALL ski instructors ... their monetary compensation is minimal for their skillset and commitment but I do find it ironic ( or do I mean pathetic ?) that it is us Brits who are complaining ( presumably because we are not good enough to pass) --- and we have such an outstanding alpine skiing record -- don't we?
Does noone else think that an improvement in UK alpine skiing competition success ( and basic National competence) might be served by More instructors attaining other alpine nations' standards rather than reducing the standards themselves?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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laundryman, i did say larger schools. in the 3 valleys there are 3 schools with the centre status for instance. Magic academy, ski supreme and the ESF. Rob mentioned new generation who applied but were rejected as they dont have enough ISTD's on staff.
This is very much an unfair and protectionist measure eminating from the ESF. I personally dont view the Speed test as protectionism as everyone needs to pass it. but having only certain (typically the ESF) being able to have trainees is a very unfair practice and one that is under threat the moment.
lots of people talk down the french system but it is an environment where an instructor can actually make a living..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agenterre, I'm going to have to disagree with you  
To my eyes, (which are almost certainly LESS competent and educated than yours) I can't see why someone who is going to teach me the beginnings of parallel turns, side-slides or other 'basic' ski skills, needs to be able match downhill racers for speed?
Sure if I was learning to race gates I'd want an instructor who could , er, walk the walk as well as talk the talk, but IMHO for teachers of most intermediates and ALL beginners, such skills are simply not required.
Along with (I suspect) the vast majority of holiday recreational skiers, I'm not interested in achieving race speeds, and never will be.
Other than for 'race instructors' I just don't see the point of the speed test?
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Axsman, No problem with disagreement ...
My 'personal' choice of instructor will ( in future) alwyas be driven by personal referral / commendation wherever possible.
By way of Thread-drift-ish-ness; I suspect that different instructors have worked better for me in different stages of development. The guy who got me skiing is 'Bit-of-A-Lad' , ex WC and kind of teased me into sking ( He had passed the Euro-test!) !! I know believe that I benefit from Easiski's analytical approach .
Who instructs Bode Miller and Didier Cuche?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| JP wrote: |
| Ability to do; does not mean ability to teach, so can someone explain in simple terms why you need to be able to ski fast in a straight line to teach skiing? |
This debate has had a very good airing on previous occasions so I won't add to here other than saying the Eurotest has nothing at all to do with skiing in a straight line
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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T Bar, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, clearly you're too young to remember the pre-breathalyser test 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| rob@rar, clearly you're too young to remember the pre-breathalyser test |
I am, but I think I get the reference now. Ta!
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Speed tests should be part of instructor training.
The Eurogroup's top level and the Eurotest are a form of trade protectionism, to keep all but mountain folk out, whether they hail from Paris, France or Paris, Texas.
ISIA ("Red") and a more realistic speed test should be sufficient for autonomous ski teaching.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Speed tests should be part of instructor training..... |
Forgive me, but why?
To teach racing, sure, but to teach beginners? I'd rather have a good communicator, who knows their stuff, and has years of experience analysing pupils faults and helping them correct them, than a hot shot who can ski fast. To start with at least, the emphasis should be on safety and control, not speed shirley?
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Axsman, would you be happy with an instructor who can't ski well? Or are you happy for the teacher to be one page ahead of the pupil? The speedtest is a demanding test of fundamental ski technique. I agree with slikedges that the Eurotest bar is set too high , but an objective assessment of core technique has a place in the highest level of instructors qualification, along with other important thinks like an assessment of teaching ability.
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