 Poster: A snowHead
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Following from the "Has skiing become more dangerous" and to back up a family argument, does anyone know where I might find injury rates, particularly for Italy?
Thanks
DM
P.S. I have checked out ski-injury.com
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The longest-running study of ski injury trends (I'd have to check, but around 25 years as I recall) is by Johnson, Ettlinger and Shealy in Vermont. It is a study often referenced at ski safety conferences.
It's published by the ASTM in the USA.
Data for Italy has probably been presented to past conferences of the ISSS (International Symposium for Safety in Skiing).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Slightly off-topic, but just a reminder for anyone skiing in Italy with kiddies this year that helmets are mandatory for all under 14 yrs old.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| David@traxvax wrote: |
| Slightly off-topic, but just a reminder for anyone skiing in Italy with kiddies this year that helmets are mandatory for all under 14 yrs old. |
Somewhat controversially I see the Americans think helmet wearers have more accidents because they take more risks
Helmets wearers lose sense of danger
Damage more serious than a mild concussion represents 23 percent of all head injuries for nonhelmeted skiers and 67 percent for helmeted skiers.
Although helmets effectively deflect glancing blows, Shealy found they're not much use when a person going over 20 mph hits a fixed object.
In other words strapping little jonny (lj) in a helmet may comply with the nanny state's law and salve your conscience be very aware of what the helmet will and won't do and make sure lj understands this.
I remember Bruce Tremper has said the same for avalanche transceivers - they probably lead to as many deaths as they save due to a false sense of security.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Though this isn't an argument against transceivers or helmets, merely that people should be properly educated about them. Though do you have any evidence for the assertion about transceivers? In my experience people who own transceivers are usually the ones who are more clued-up, and usually ski with guides.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Though do you have any evidence for the assertion about transceivers? |
What Bruce Tremper has said. Ian McCammon has done a lot of research in this area. While not direclty related he has found that backcountry travellers with some avalanche knowledge (e.g. typical purchaser of a beacon) tend to take on more risk.
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I had a helmet as a kid - princpally to reduce the blood and tears resulting from being cracked on the head by t-bars...
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Some snowHeads seem to be walking injury statistics...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mrs(Dr) L. attended a lecture on ski/board injuries in La Thuile last season. I'll see if she came away with any materials tonight. She did comment at the time that snow sports injuries were much less common than she supposed, but that's the only second hand information I can remember.
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| davidof wrote: |
| snowball wrote: |
| Though do you have any evidence for the assertion about transceivers? |
What Bruce Tremper has said. Ian McCammon has done a lot of research in this area. While not direclty related he has found that backcountry travellers with some avalanche knowledge (e.g. typical purchaser of a beacon) tend to take on more risk. |
But was he comparing with skiers who ski a similar amount off-piste and do not take a transceiver (what I would have considered the right comparison) or just anyone else who ever skis off-piste (who may not do it so often and are therefore less likely to be in an avalanche)?
Also how has this been related to skiing with / without guides?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowball wrote: |
But was he comparing with skiers who ski a similar amount off-piste ... |
In the case of Ian McCammon's research it was a statistical analysis of a large number of factors in fatal avalanches in North America and Europe. One caveat McCammon makes is that it only looks at people who were actually avalanched so may not be representative of the backcountry community as a whole.
Regarding guides I have a bit of information.. An acquaintance Alain Duclos and Claude Rey (deputy president of the UIAGM) who are both responsible for training guides in France have studied avalanche accidents involving French guides over the last 14 years and detected an increasing trend in accidents compared to the overall trend. Before anyone reads too much into these figures you are still safer skiing with an experienced guide, it was just a trend. They decided to alter the avalanche education when guides do their 2 day revision with less emphasis on snow science and more emphasis on route choice, decision making and group management. The conclusion was that a knowledge of snow science was leading guides to take on more risk than appropriate for the circumstances.
But your original point that it is not the equipment but education is well made. Safety gear, bit it air bags, helmets, avalanche rescue gear is a good thing so long as you don’t use it to take on yet more risk.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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St Anton used to publish there stats every season in german . They have revamped there site & I cannot find them right now.
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| Quote: |
I had a helmet as a kid - princpally to reduce the blood and tears resulting from being cracked on the head by t-bars...
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David Murdoch,
Promise not to do it again 
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You know it makes sense.
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The obvious parallel to this is the anecdotal story of the number of accidents/injuries in kids' playgrounds going up when they were surfaced with a softer material than concrete, as parents started assuming that they are now safe (I do not know if it's a myth, or true, or not).
| Quote: |
| One caveat McCammon makes is that it only looks at people who were actually avalanched so may not be representative of the backcountry community as a whole. |
So of the people who've been avalanched, the ones with the transceivers were the ones who were avalanched in the riskiest places. Do they go to the riskiest places because they carry the transceiver, or do they carry the transceiver because they go to the riskiest places? Also, what's the percentages of those who carry transceivers (and those who don't) within the off-piste 'community' who don't get avalanched? Without that info., there's a pretty big leap to the conclusion drawn (though that info. may be in McCammon's possession, of course).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Murdoch, Mrs/Dr L. has dug out the slides from the lecture she attended. It was given by Dr. Mike Langran, who is an Aviemore GP. He has a web site which looks like it covers most of the stuff in the presentation. The highlights that I've picked up are:
- the "mean days between injury" is about 300 days weighted across disciplines (315 for Alpine skiing, 192 for boarding), against 379 days for all sports (but 23 x safer than recreational swimming and 9 x safer than cycling)
- 36 snow sport deaths / year in US, compared to 300 bath tub deaths!
- [this might be what you're looking for] overall injury rate down 48% since 1970s
- overall knee injuries (the most common ) have remained static since 1970s, but ACL injuries increased by 240% in 1980s, static in 1990s, may now be in decline perhaps due to shorter tails on carving skis.
- head injuries are most common cause of death, but serious head injuries are extremely rare (less than 2.5% of all injuries)
- serious head injuries are usually associated with collisions with static objects resulting in multiple trauma
- there is no evidence that helmets prevent fatalities, and helmet wearers are over-represented amongst the injured population.
If anyone has any questions not answered on the site, I can try to look in the presentation, but a lot of it is medical detail that's a bit beyond me.
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