| Would you choose the ESF for ski tuition? |
| Always, whether or not there are alternatives |
|
1% |
[ 1 ] |
| Yes, I prefer the ESF but would use an independent |
|
4% |
[ 4 ] |
| I have no preference either way |
|
17% |
[ 16 ] |
| I prefer independents, but would use the ESF |
|
25% |
[ 23 ] |
| Only if there is no other alternative |
|
12% |
[ 11 ] |
| I would rather go without lessons if there is no alternative |
|
23% |
[ 21 ] |
| I never take lessons and have no intention of doing so |
|
4% |
[ 4 ] |
| I would choose an alternative in a different country rather than be stuck with the ESF |
|
12% |
[ 11 ] |
|
| Voted : 97 |
| Total Votes : 91 |
|
|
|
 Poster: A snowHead
|
DB, sorry about that, didn't really mean to call you arrogant. 
I do think that it is a shame that us Brits go abroad and expect to be spoken to in English, to such an extent that when someone is unable to speak perfect English, we view it as their shortcoming and not ours. In my experience we are the worst nationality for doing this. One of my skiing companions is German, not only does he embarass me with his knowledge of English, but his French puts me to shame as well. This is true for the vast majority of his companions, to be fluent in two or three languages, passable in one or two others, and a smattering of other words. When they go skiing in Germany or Austria they expect to be spoken to in German or Austrian (there is a difference apparently), when in France they expect to be spoken to in French.
The problem for us Brits is exactly because English is the worlds chosen business language (which is wonderful for us), there is very little impetus for us to learn any other language, unless we are living abroad. Even when you try and speak a foreign language, as soon as they hear an English accent they switch to English. Although we have come to expect that as the norm, I don't think that that gives us the right to criticise a foreigner when his English is less than perfect. For me part of the joy of being in the mountains is to experience the local culture (which in Val d"Isere is remarkably similar to that of Surrey!), and I find even my lame attempts at schoolboy french cheer up the moodiest of locals.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
PG, Of course you don't have to find any argument or combination of arguments persuasive, but I would hope that you recognise that some valid points of view have been put across for the opposition, albeit you reject them on balance. It's clear that what's a 'big deal' for one camp isn't for the other, and vice versa. I can't see that continuing this discussion will shed any more light, only heat.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
laundryman, well said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
laundryman, quite. However it will take a great deal to persuade me that the wishes of a large majority of parents, concerned for the proper supervision and training of children in a dangerous environment, should be subservient to those of the occasional ski tourist, concerned mainly for his pocket! (With apologies for the rather flippant overview of how the interventionist/free marketeer argument applies in this instance  )
Bona fide independent ski schools with genuine training systems are content. The likes of a fully qualified French-resident British ski instructor such as easiski is content. I've spoken to the director of an independent with several branches in the Tarentaise, and he is satisfied that the measures were needed and well-intentioned, if a little clumsy. A sizeable majority of those buying lessons in French resorts are getting what they wanted - sports educators trained to an established national standard. Virtually all qualified ski instructors in France are more than happy to see measures in place that hinder the erosion of standards in their profession.
Getting away from skiing, ask any French parent whether their children should be taught swimming, or sailing, or diving, or judo under the system you propose and the answer will be a resounding "NO!"
Who is not content? Ski schools exploiting the loopholes in the system to employ disproportionate numbers of trainees in order to stay in business. Some holidaymakers who are more interested in the standard of their instructor's English than whether he/she can ski or not. Or in keeping the cost of their holiday down. Or both.
There's a discussion on Epic at the moment on the issue of instructor standards. This comment sums it up for me:
| Quote: |
Generally, intermediate skill level instructors perform beginner skills at an intermediate level. They also have zero first hand experience with the entire journey from beginner to expert, so they can't clearly envision, or help their student clearly envision, what lies at the end of the road, or offer quality advice on the best means to get there beyond the context of the lesson at hand. At best all the intermediate skill level instructor can do is fill a role very limited in scope.
Expert skill level instructors perform beginner skills at a higher level, which provides a better model for their students. They can also then plant a seed by providing a great demonstration and description of the skills that their students will be aspiring to down the road. Instructors of expert skill and knowledge have a better vision of the bigger picture and can therefore design a product that better prepares their students for the challenges to come; challenges the lower skill level instructor seldom even understands.
Contentions that instructors of intermediate skiing skill are adequately equipped to provide a lower level student a top notch lesson is just rationalization used to get around the fact that there just aren't enough high skill level instructors with the proper teaching skills to fill all the staffing needs. Ski schools just have to make due with the quality they're able to attract with the paltry wages they're willing to pay.
An interesting result of this reality is that many become better skiers by becoming an instructor than they were able to being taught by one.
|
The US context of the above shows what can happen under the alternative system being proposed. A lowering of standards leads to part- and fully qualified instructors working for a pittance, and schools unable to find a sufficient number of qualified instructors to fill the places available. Precisely what the French are trying to avoid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
PG, our fellow holidays guests all worked in International companies, and spoke excellent English.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
From my experience it isn't only the brits who complain about the lack of english speaking instructors. The Dutch and the Scandinavians(just to name a few) are usually fluent in english and the ones i've met complained about this. English is the dominant language in business and science so most people use the same rationale as DB when choosing to learn a foreign language (i know i did), so yes if you want to cater to an international clientele you should speak english. Well. This goes for the French, the Hindu , the Argentinians and the Inuits.
I also feel that this is only part of the problem with the ESF. They are booking very large groups, making it virtually impossible for the instructor to do anything but a "follow me" lesson. Try devoting 5 minutes to each one of 12-14 customers in a group lesson!! And it isn't like their job is on the line.
In my view, the ESF is a monopoly that usually acts as one. Thats the main problem. They could give much better service if they would place more focus on teaching and the customer. Customer and not pupil or student.
May i ask, if the ESF did a week of skiing practice, did they spend a week practicing teaching skills, and another one customer care? If not, i think that's the problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
sugardaddy, I'll be seeing a couple of ESF directors at Val in a few hour's time, including the father of 20 year old Thomas Frey in his second WC giant slalom. Keep an eye on him, a great prospect. Anyway back to the size of the groups - I'll ask them for their views.
On the subject of teaching skills, Easiski mentioned that the ESF refresher course was a full week, compared to a day, or just half a day, with the ESI or BASI. How many minutes of that half a day do you think were spent practicing teaching skills?!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
... which rightly so annoys the Scots/Welsh/Irish even more than the Danish & Dutch. I made that mistake once up here in Scotland. Believe me, I only made it once!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just received the following from a Brit mum who had used the ESF in Arc 2000 recently, a regular visitor to the slopes around Europe....
| Quote: |
| Well! George thought it was FANTASTIC and the best ski class he has ever done! At the end of the week he achieved bronze fleche which he was delighted with as he went to ski school mornings only, so hadn't practised the slalom course at all during the week! Standard of instruction was SUPERB - in our group of children we had one in 1*, one in 2*, one in 3* and George in competion - and every child was delighted and enthused about their teacher. Thankyou ESF Arcs 2000!! |
(None of the kids spoke any French...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Adding in my 2p worth, as I seem to have always stayed in French resorts where there is only ESF...
Whilst learning I took the group lessons - and the reaction is mixed. If I was one of the 'better' people in the group and stayed close to the instructor then yes I think they did the job. Hated it if I was the 'struggler' of the group, but not sure if there's always someone that struggles in a group or it was the instructors faults for not taking more care in organising the groups. There's a huge element of 'follow the leader' but when you are a beginner I think that's what you need sometimes.
Have now moved to private lessons - also with ESF, get less time for the same money but seem to learn so much more. The instructors may not have perfect english but as its one to one - you can manage to understand each other - and as has been mentioned before - great opportunity to talk about the local area and their history on the lifts.
Have decided to learn snowboarding and I'm going to go straight for private lessons and avoid the group ones - will see if its a quicker learning curve.
So conclusion from me - they're not bad, and some individuals are excellent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
PG, My younger son learned to ski with the ESF at Les Arcs - Ski Evolutif. His progress was amazing. By the end of the week he was skiing reds quite well. I think he was about 14 at the time. He did get promoted into a French class, when the instructors spotted he had schoolboy French. He struggled a bit with that. But with the aid of the Sunday Times "We Learned to Ski" book - which had quite a lot on Ski Evolutif - we consoidated at our appartment on what he thought his instructor had said (she spoke some English, but not well). And of course, we skied together when he was not in class.
I don't know if Ski Evolutif is still taught, but I was mightily impressed at the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
