 Poster: A snowHead
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I have been loaned some skiing books by a kindly local elderly skier. They're 1980s texts, which were current when he first learned - he's an amazing old boy - always lived alone, spent his holidays hitchhiking and hillwalking all over GB, then decided to learn to ski at the age of 60. Now in his 80s, and looking decidedly more frail, he still skis every year, having missed just one year (2007) through a broken shoulder sustained when falling off a ladder while doing odd jobs for someone! He goes as a single traveller with a company called Masterski.
Anyway - the books are really interesting - I had not realised how recently technology had moved on, eg I didn't know that only 20 years ago ski brakes were not in common use, and that straps tying boot to ski were the norm and the skis pictured look far less shaped than today's though they are def not completely straight-sided. There is one chapter in one book (the Sunday Times, We Learned to Ski) called "The Short Ski Method" which goes in great detail into the pros and cons of learning on different length skis, saying that the GLM (Graduated Length Method) allows learners to ski parallel much sooner and avoid learning a snowplough and getting stuck at that stage (see my sig!) because shorter skis (1m) are easier and not so fast, but a bit harder to find one's balance on (no bad thing perhaps?). The book points out that a huge variation in methods existed, with traditional methods using a ski the same height as the skier or longer, and I know that's something that is different now, because people seem to be taught on skis a few inches shorter than their height. The book reckons putting learner on 'normal' length skis to begin with is like putting a learner driver in a Ferrari! They say essentially there were 3 methods:
Traditional (std skis, plough - stem christie - parallel)
GLM (direct to parallel using 'mini' skis and moving gradually to longer and longer ones)
ATM (American or Accelerated Teaching Method - Shorter skis to start with, but not mini ones, learning stem/wedge turns first, then wide track parallel)
Can I ask the experts who are old enough to have seen skiing develop through this period what their opinions are? I have noticed quite a lot of people using very short skis which looks like a different discipline again - are these a new thing? If so, is it likely that these might be used in teaching standard skiing for the same reasons? Or has ski design moved on such that this is irrelevant? Are longer skis 'faster' and harder to turn, or does the different shape/flexibility of skis now make far more difference?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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NewSkier, good question.
I was around for Sk Evolutif and just ignored it. At the time it was sneered at as a Les Arcs fad. "Proper Skiers" learnt on full sized skis and started with the snowplough.
I had never heard of ATM.
Two things happened to kill Ski Evolutif.
1. The snowplough is a useful skill to have when things get tough. Even instructors will use it at times. Ski Evolutif missed out this skill
2. Skis changed: they got shorter and wider and easier, making Ski Evolutif essentially redundant.
Some info on those very short skis ("blades") here
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| Some info on those very short skis ("blades") here |
There is also a new kind of short ski, totally different from blades. We have some by Decathlon, called Wedze. They are made in two lengths, 120 for beginners to intermediates and 130 for experts. We have the former, which have proved fun, and very useful, as they can be used by a huge range of people both in terms of weight and expertise. One of my nephews did some impressive and hairy stuff on them, without poles (he was a snowblader for years) and we also had a complete beginner on them, very happily. His ski instructor thought they were good to learn on, but was a bit dismissive of them for experts as they are "too slow"! All very well for a ski instructor to say, but for most of us they're fine. I also use blades, and normal length skis, and can say categorically that the new short skis (Atomic do some too, and probably other manufacturers) are much more like conventional skis than blades. They are much heavier, and wider, than blades and can chop happily through the kind of crud which tends to stop blades dead, and can also be used off piste to a limited extent.
I never did Ski Evolutif either, though I was aware of it, and like Jonpim I am a big believer in being able to snowplough. But for a beginner now, especially a rather hesitant one, I think the new short skis are a good bet. But please note that they are not, at all, the same as blades. Blades are good for teaching people not to ski in the back seat though (they have no backs, so if you lean back you fall over). They are also good for beginners who ski around clutching ski poles as though they were life rafts - getting shot of the poles can help make you more relaxed and athletic. I did a day on blades doing very short turns, and extreme carves, with an instructor on a specialist course one time, and he had us all moving much better.
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pam w, but you don't have to get on blades to ditch those poles.... just put them DOWN works fine... no one is forcing folks to use them.... I spent do much time skiing without them when I was learning & it is still the easiest thing to do when I want to focus on my feet
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little tiger, you are absolutely right, of course, but it is soooooo difficult to wrest those poles away from some folks. I just tell them firmly that "you don't use poles with blades" and hide them away in the ski locker! I am surprised that more instructors don't get people skiing without poles; I distinctly remember leaving them in big piles at the bottom of lifts, over the years, but these days you don't often seem to see adults without them. It's a real shame. I know there are some very advanced things you can't really do without them, but (and we've had this conversation before) for many people, much of the time, they are positively getting in the way, just trailing around being useless and creating muscle tension. But just being able to clutch them, desperately, usually somewhere around the navel, both hands almost touching, seems to give some people a totally misleading feeling of security.
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pam w, yeah and the one I love - frantically stabbing at the ground to either go anywhere or stay upright (or attempt to do so)...
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pam w, I once helped get a middle aged lady with downs syndrome skiing.... we sat at the bottom of the beginner slope the first day and watched the skiers (while I convinced it was worth a try).... Once she had decided she was going skiing we then spent a bit of time deciding who the "good skiers" were.... we decided that the good skiers (mostly instructors some better parents skiing with off-spring) did not use poles... Hence as she was going to be a good skier she would proceed without them.... This was helped by the fact that the kids ski school did not allow poles for the small kids... but the adults all seemed to use them... and of course her nieces and nephews mostly had no poles also...
I hate to think how many times I've grabbed folks poles and skied along behind them... saying "I'll give them back when you need them again"...
If only more ski schools ditched the poles it would be more acceptable I guess...
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Someone here fell onto his pole, getting off a chairlift, two years ago. The sharp end punctured his femoral artery. Big mess. Fortunately they had medics on the scene very quickly, and a helicopter. My husband actually managed to stab himself in the calf muscle with one, on a dry ski slope in England, many years ago. Quite a nasty puncture wound. No helicopter for him, though. They're very useful for holding up the wires in the electric fencing for cows, though. Hundreds of them around the pastures here.
Meanwhile, what do people think of those short skis.... they're cheap, that's one good thing, especially in Decathlon. Some very pretty colours, too.
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| Quote: |
| 20 years ago ski brakes were not in common use, and that straps tying boot to ski were the norm |
Not too sure about that, NewSkier. I learnt to ski in Norway yonks ago, and can't remember how the skis clipped on, but when I first started skiing in the Alps, in the mid eighties, the bindings were not that different from now. Frank Klammer had won the downhill five times by 1980 and I don't believe he had his skis tied on with straps. We have a fascinating 1983 book about skiing by Peter Lunn and there's plenty of relevant, as well as interesting, information in it. For example, on whether to ski with the feet together, or apart, he says "I have always skied with my feet apart. Then in the 1950s skiers were taught that they should, as far as possible, ski with their feet clamped together. I did not change my own ways and I now find that I am back in the fashion, because it is once again being taught that skiers should keep their feet apart".
I remember that Sunday Times book - it was absolutely excellent; my 10 year old fell asleep with it on his nose, on our first family ski holiday.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes, pretty much as jonpim and Yoda says. Most ignored the short ski method and progressed to 2mtrs pretty quickly. Unweildy beasts by todays standards, mostly, but that was the deal. I don't remember skis without brakes 20 years ago and the Look turntable was indeed a PITA in deep snow...not that we went there intentionally then.
You needed 15 weeks under your belt and a lot of awareness before you ventured very far off the beaten track. Boarding changed a lot of that..as the mindset was, I can ski it, I can go there.... 
As to the lenght of the skis... I think the physics has always been the same, just the materials got better, so the option to go shorter presented itself. It is obvious that a shorter ski is generally easier to handle. Put in a sidecut and the thing is a turning machine. To do that before, you would need a very thin waist and I can remember 61mm 3f's which we used to go off-piste in.... they were a good ski..!!!
You need a ski to support your weight and the forces you load on it, in the situation you want to use it..that is why Off-piste skis are genearaly fatter, you need the surface area to help get the skis out of the snow...
SL skis are stiffer, if not heavier, to take load of the turn.
I learnt during the 80's and some of the turns then are just as valid now... You can talk all you like about this type of turn or that, you'll need most of them to go everywhere so old skills doesn't mean bad or outdated so much as another set of tools in the box.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| NewSkier wrote: |
20 years ago ski brakes were not in common use, and that straps tying boot to ski were the norm
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.....the bindings were not that different from now. |
I didn't mean the bindings themselves, they looked pretty similar to modern ones, but at the back there was pictured an additional small strap to stop skis shooting off down the slope if they came off. There's a discussion in the book about the advent of the ski brakes with some indication that they were not yet that good.
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NewSkier,
Sounds like a powder strap to me, which is ( still ) a good idea as you don't want to lose one in deep snow... not least the walk out might be VERY long.
But straps for on-piste are mostly a waste of time...you have to weigh the fact that they will stay with you after a fall against getting whacked around the face by a flailing ski....
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You know it makes sense.
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| JT wrote: |
NewSkier,
Sounds like a powder strap to me, which is ( still ) a good idea as you don't want to lose one in deep snow... not least the walk out might be VERY long.
But straps for on-piste are mostly a waste of time...you have to weigh the fact that they will stay with you after a fall against getting whacked around the face by a flailing ski.... |
I thought they looked a blooming nightmare!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| JT wrote: |
| after a fall against getting whacked around the face by a flailing ski.... |
Or the tails smack the back o'the head. Fortunately there was someone with 40 sutures on hand...
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Poster: A snowHead
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I learnt on evolutif skis at La Plagne.
I certainly enjoyed it and am convinced I made better progress in the first week than I would using traditional methods. We still learnt to snowplough. You had to be able to slow and stop on the nursery slope. It is just stem turns that got less attention.
I managed to lose a ski twice in deep snow. The second time we gave up looking for it. The hire shop did not worry unduly about it.
At the end of the week I was on 160s which would be closer to today's lengths than the two metre standard back then.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I learnt evolutif in Isola 2000 in 1985 when I lived in Antibes for 18 months. We still learned to plough, and stem which stayed with me for a long time! Started week at 1m, mid week 1.20 and end 1.40m. After various ventures into lengths: 1987 1.9m; 1997 1.8m still intermediate!! ; 2002 1.7m glimmerings of improvement; 2007 1.6m but Rossi B3. I'm now 63 and assessed at US level 8, thank god for shape over length!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The first couple of times I went skiing (Andalo in 1979, and Maurach in 1980) the rental skis that us schoolkids were issued had straps not brakes. It was a complete PITA having to clip and unclip the strap, and I did see one kid getting whacked about by a windmilling ski which had popped it's binding but was attached by a short strap.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| It was a complete PITA having to clip and unclip the strap, and I did see one kid getting whacked about by a windmilling ski which had popped it's binding but was attached by a short strap. |
Hunh. I had look salomon and tyrolia straps at various times; the tyrolia ones were so easy to use I collected a bunch for use with climbing chalk bags and still have them thus; the salomon ones I now use to hang ski bags for storage and sleeping bags to dry, as they had the elastic shock cord across the Y & against the calf.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think "We Learned to Ski" was originally published in 1976. There was certainly an 1978 edition and we had had a copy in the house well before I went on my first foreign ski trip in 1978. I think we were all given a fairly pathetic book ny the "schools Abroad" rep that we happened to travel with. Other notable even was the undercarriage fire as we returned to Edinburgh on Dan(D)air.
I digress.
It (WLTS) is still an excellent book and totally amazing for its time.
I didn't ever try Ski Evolutif, or such (they hadn't made their way to Glenshee) but I did have a couple of unhappy (in that I didn't progress) years on my mother's Kneissl "COMPACTS". A short, "soft", almost-entirely-without-sidecut ski. I think designed to make skiing easier by making skidding easy. DUMB IDEA!
I think these accelerated learning ideas may have ran headlong into the uncomfortable wall that eventually most people wanted to "graduate" onto "real" skis. And discovered that they couldn't ski on 203 Dynamic VR27 slalom skis. And had to go through the whole learning experience again. Latchigo's experience doesn't bear out this half baked theory. Maybe all the short skis were taken out (with the dinosaurs) by a huge meteorite?
Regarding brakes. They were definitely using leashes in Portillo at the '66 games. Whereas 1978 saw the launch of the reasonably revolutionary Salomon 727 which only came with an integrated brake. I would guess that brakes became generally available around 1972.
JT, The WLTS picture is of a ski strap instead of brakes. I know, I can picture the very image in my mind. NewSkier, they weren't great, especially when you were trying to manage cable bindings. Had to put the strap on first, then get your boot into the cable and latch it up. Problem being that as there was nothing to stop the ski if it wasn't attached to you, things could get very hairy very quickly.
First thing I was taught by parents? If you lose control, sit down.
Second thing, if your ski heads off without you on it, or you see another similarly unaccompanied ski, yell, "SKI!" repeatedly at the top of your voice. A bit like, "Fore!" I guess if you're a golfer. But probably more scary.
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I did 1 week "ski evolutif" back in 1985 at Les Arcs.
My impression is, with hindsight that the entire class "caught on" really quickly. We were soon able to travel the majority of the resort with our instructor and this probably got me hooked. I also think that most people have the impression that snowplough as a technique was not taught, but it definitely was. Ideal for "downhill draglifts", narrow trails through trees etc. In fact anywhere that speed control would help, or so we were told. The method may have died out due to the cost of having to provide 3 pairs of skis per learner.?? Anyway first time i've done this so hope it works!
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Seems to have worked so i'll have another bash.
Just had a squint in our ski bible (The Handbook Of Skiing. by Carl Gamma 1985 edition). Diagram of binding looks just about identical to 2007 thing i last used, complete with "ski brakes". "old school" book but still some great stuff in it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| geoffkay, it worked ! and welcome to :sH: :sH: 's |
Thank you.
I've had some great info from these forums so thought it was about time i stuck my oar in.
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brian
brian
Guest
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My first pair of skis (probably about 4th hand) 25 years ago had straps not brakes.
I remember the Hillend hire stock at that time had plate bindings. If you fell and they released, most of the binding stayed attached to your boot and it was attached to the toepiece (which stayed on the ski) by a wire.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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brian, Most shorter dry slopes didn't bother using the wire with their plate bindings.
The first binding that I remember having a built-in brake was the S727 from around 1980. Before that they were a separate unit that screwed to the ski in between the toe and heel of the binding.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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NewSkier, Being a bit older than most on the forum I can take you through the progression.
I was given a pair of ski brakes to try (they were new), by Edward Sports in Wengen in the 1972/3 season. they were not attached to the bindings, but screwed onto the ski. As previously stated Salomon then brought out a binding with integral brakes (pointing forwards) in around 1975 or so. Previous to that we all used long leather straps to fasten the ski to the boot to stop the ski running off on it's own. By this time we had releasing toe bindings, and heel releases were just coming out.
I'm not sure of the date of the invention of ski evolutif, but at the beginning they didn't teach plough at all. They soon realised this was a mistake and then did teach plough, but not as a starting out thing. It was all about flat skis and rotation (sorry Latchigo, I remember remarking on yours at last year's EOSB). Thus the problems were: the shops had to stock lots of extra pairs of skis that weren't earning their keep and had to refit the students every 2 days (very uneconomical), and the students all ended up skiing a very flat ski and furiously rotating all their turns. I have used it in one or two cases, notably if a beginner student had a double hip replacement and therefore couldn't really plough.
Compact skis came out at the end of the 70's and into the 80's and were a shocking idea. No sidecut and designed to skid. They encouraged that to the detriment of everyone's skiing and were abandoned quite quickly.
Now we have snowblades (skiboards in the US), about 1m in length; mini skis which vary fromt he Wedze which has more ski in front of the foot to my Freezbees which have the binding in the centre of the ski and are essentially giant (139) snowblades. Then we have short carving skis.
My personal preference is to have beginners in very short carvers (tip of shoulder length). The skis will then respond to less pressure and the student will learn how to use the ski from the start.
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One potential huge benefit of learning on very short skis must be the discouragement of the most common fault even now, ie weight too far back, I have heard it suggested that for the most intransigent toilet skier one effective solution is to get them on some blades.
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You know it makes sense.
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We learnt in Flaine in 1995 with Ski Evolutif, we were taught to snowplough, but only as a method of stopping quickly in an emergency. No doubt easiski will have some comments on how it affected my skiing.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 9-11-07 19:47; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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I did my own version of Ski Evolutif. The problem was that I learned to ski a bit at the Snowdome, but then had a very bad leg injury in a road traffic accident. The problem was then that I couldn't hold a Snowplough position for a long period of time, and unfortunately that is what I would have to do to learn to ski conventionally. So with the help of two BASI Trainers, I learned to ski using Snowblades (90cm). Not muck around, I learned to ski with as good technique as I could get, with proper tuition.
Then I gradually got longer and longer skis. I still learned SOME snowploughing, but the difference was I didn't have to spend three whole days doing snowploughs, which my knee and leg would not have been able to cope with. I was skiing parallel within an hour. I now ski 155's, the right length for my height, and can snowplough just fine when I want to, just not for hours on end.
For me it was a good method, but I was lucky enough to be able to afford private lessons with good instructors.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, yes, I know it wasn't proper Ski Evolutif. Unlike a lot of bladers, I wanted lessons, because I wanted to end up on longer skis and able to ski with reasonably good technique.
Glad to know you've done that as well. At lot of our skiing friends turned their nose up at what I was doing, but the alternative as far as I was concerned was not skiing at all - not an option!
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docsquid, Why would they turn up their noses? Very odd! Now you can just show them how much it was worth it by skiing them off the hill!!! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, I think it was because they thought that because they'd gone through the pain of snowploughing for several days, I should too! They seemed a bit miffed at how quickly I progressed.
I'll try and ski them off the hill - I'm getting there 
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Thanks for those contributions, easiski, and docsquid; it is a fascinating thing to look at the recent historical development and hear about both the theory and practice.
As with most physical skills (I teach church bellringing, so have experience of teaching people of all ages to do a potentially dangerous and slightly 'scary' activity), whatever equipment is being used, the best result is always going to be one where the instructor works with the individual's own existing skills/aptitude and tries to tailor learning to that student's needs, combined with lots of reinforcement of good activities and correction of the causes of poorer attempts, often by switching straight away to a slightly different exercise.
Sadly with skiing that is often not possible - large classes mean individual teaching is unlikely to happen (I teach ringing 1:1). The practice is likely to be 1-2 weeks of intensive work per year, with possible interim sessions indoors or on a dry slope during which bad habits can be reinforced because instructor time is so expensive. To be honest, trying to keep it up and improve a bit through the year after my 1st efforts last spring may have partly worked against me. I got to the point of being able to survive the top (steeper) part of the Castleford Xscape slope and was told then that I needed to gain confidence at that before taking a level 5 lesson. Well, every descent was scary because I wasn't in proper control for whatever reason, and my repeated attempts locked me into the method that I was employing - even though it wasn't working, because it got me down in one piece! Trying to move on from that point has been incredibly hard and I ended up going to a different slope (Tam) that was less steep at the top to give me a different experience.
I have been told I think too much but that's my way - we are all different!
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| Quote: |
Sadly with skiing that is often not possible - large classes mean individual teaching is unlikely to happen
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That (large classes) is actually not true. One always has the option of booking private instructions.
However, many people (me included) found being in a class not a disadvantage, because other students are experienceing many of the same issue as me!
We're on this forum because we learn from other's learning experience!
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| abc wrote: |
| Quote: |
Sadly with skiing that is often not possible - large classes mean individual teaching is unlikely to happen
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That (large classes) is actually not true. One always has the option of booking private instructions. |
Yes, but they can be extremely expensive.
| Quote: |
However, many people (me included) found being in a class not a disadvantage, because other students are experienceing many of the same issue as me!
We're on this forum because we learn from other's learning experience! |
Indeed. I agree there are benefits and drawbacks to both group and private lessons and have booked group lessons for myself next Feb, but with a school that has a reputation for smaller groups and attention to individual needs.
Last season I shared a private lesson with 2 ladies who'd had to drop out of their course of beginner lessons because of being left behind. It was a large group of mostly young fearless blokes and the instructor (also a young bloke) was moving at their pace, apparently oblivious to there being need for anything else. Within 2 days these ladies were unable to cope; having had to make their own way down a slope (walking) that scared them rigid after the rest of the group had long gone and abandoned them, they decided enough was enough.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I learned to ski in the 'traditional' way in Scotland and Canada. My brother learned evolutif in Les Arcs in 93. By 94, he was keeping up with me off-piste in Val D. He's never looked back. Not saying i'd recommend it as a method now, given changed technology, but it was definitely brilliant at the time! 
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Wow, bump of the decade that one! Well done.
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FAQ
so learning was on rocks, mud and grass. Excellent foundation.
