 Poster: A snowHead
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Suspicious thread reboot?
Anyway, I looked at the knee binding website and videos of testing way back in 07. It was about that time that I did my ACL, so had a deep interest in such things.
Anyway, I havn't revisited so I don't know if anything has changed (and I currently don't have the time to even read the above posts) but my concerns at the time involved the testing procedures in the video :
They clearly had no understanding of basic engineering mechanics.
It may be that the demo they had set up was for marketing, and so 'simplified' (or 'lied') for effect, but it sure wasn't science.
(I am a registered Chartered Engineer, and I do know about such things as they trust me with nuclear power plants.)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thank you for confirming why we should be concerned about our nuclear reactors.
Rick Howell
Howell Ski Bindings
Stowe, Vermont
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hi All. I see these have been on here before but wondered of views of these had changed since 09 or if anyone now has now any personal experience of them as I mentioned to my local shop my dodgy knees and was pointed to these by the ski tech who is also a ski-patroller who said these are the bindings he will be using this season.
Had a look at epicski (the american ski place referred above?) and there is a lot of discussion there and those who use it seem to rate them but a lot of others saying there is no real evidence that supports its claims. A hard one as imagine no independent studies would be around to say one way or the next and wouldnt even know how they would do one in the field, would have to be lab based But if it does what it says, i.e. releases laterally at the heel, then it cant hurt and if as good as other bindings (despite being pretty ugly) then worth a go?
Are they still priced ion the UK at the high end as the US site did say the were a little dearer but not too bad. Edge and Wax has them at GBP240-280 but what is the benchmark to say they are overpriced as this thread mentioned
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1327775&highlight=knee+bindings#1327775
Thoughts?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@ster, I find it odd that Mr Howell seems to have gone out on his own...after being president of kneebinding he now claims he is not kneebinding, but with a product that the heel looks very similar to,
I have visited the new website and it looks like renderings of an vaporware product in 1960s style...asking for preorders with a very long lead time.
If it works so well, why are we not all skiing on them now ? Its not like there is anything new in lateral heel release, or the understanding of torque.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ster,
I skied on Knee Bindings last season, as did my wife. She had a rather nasty fall in Feb 2013 which resulted in a fractured fibula, tore the 'Bec de Canard' (bone spur where the ACL attaches) off and some other ligament damage. The fall seemed to be a phantom foot type fall on Crux in Tignes during poor visibility.
Having endured a year of rehab after surgery, she decided to get Kneebindings for her new skis, and I also got a set, purchased from SpyderJon. They are slightly heavier than the Marker Squires, but are quite robustly constructed. They performed well, though I had a bit of an issue with pre-release as I hadn't set the forward pressure correctly. You need to bear in mind that the bindings are 'handed' as the lateral release is to one side only.
Otherwise we are both happy with them. They do give some reassurance that they should reduce the risk of a ACL injury, and having had one of us injured and a resulting 25+month recovery period which included 2 operations, neither of us want to repeat that if possible. If you are worried about your knees, it may be worth investing in them, if only for peace of mind.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I've skied on them for a couple of years. I found the "correct" forward pressure seems really, and I mean really, high - to the point where clipping in needed a good proportion of my body weight. I adjusted them down from the book value but I still find them tough to clip in on any reasonable slope.
Having said that I believe more recent versions have been modified to make them easier to get on.
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| kerb wrote: |
I've skied on them for a couple of years. I found the "correct" forward pressure seems really, and I mean really, high - to the point where clipping in needed a good proportion of my body weight. I adjusted them down from the book value but I still find them tough to clip in on any reasonable slope.
Having said that I believe more recent versions have been modified to make them easier to get on. |
That's the same issue we both had. Not ideal when venturing off piste, so we did wind the pressure off. I did find that a little upward pressure on the rear clip helps.
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Thanks @Scottish Scrutineer, @kerb, and @lampbus belatedly , for your replies. Interesting on the one sided lateral release adn the pressure needed. Certainly food for thought when time for new bindings come around and if SpyderJon is happy to sell them. Hopefully the knees will last until then!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Scottish Scrutineer, interesting details...handed release, hard to adjust and difficult to clip into. Perhaps this explains why they are not more popular.
Don't get me wrong - if they work and have no other serious drawbacks then I am interested in protecting my knees.
On the handedness : 1. Is it clear which way they release ? (Or actually 'keyed' so they will not clip in if on the wrong foot - unlikely as the DIN ski boot is symmetrical).
2. If I swap skis - which I do sometimes to distribute wear or if I get an edge burr or base damage one one edge on the mountain - the lateral release is instantly void. In fact, if the upward release compromised in any way? Eg if the design uses an element of lateral release to ease upward heal release, if I am loading the heal the 'wrong' way then the upward element will be stiffer ? It is very difficult to design the heel piece to fully isolate these two motions - I am interested to know how they do this.
On the adjustment : I have noticed that forward pressure screw on the bindings I have come across (but I am not a ski tech) sometimes 'turn until it clicks', 'turn until it is flush' or 'turn until the line on the head is flush'. As ski bindings should be obvious to set right with minimal training - how are the knee bindings set and do they differ markedly from other industry norms ? If they are different, I would question the design wisdom, and if they are 'normal' then I would question why experienced people in this thread got it wrong ! You are not helping people's knees if they pre-release.
On the difficulty clipping in : Yes, off piste in soft snow, it can be dangerous if the ski cannot be simple to get back on. If we assume that a correctly adjusted binding heel will release correctly as per DIN, laterally (is there a DIN test for this?) and upward, then I an interested in why they are hard to clip into, when other bindings manage it with ease. It is possible that this is a sign of a better release traded off for harder clip in.
Does anyone have a binding I could look at on my engineering bench ? I could even devise some comparative tests 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@6Bindings, we should always be concerned about the ways manufacturers make claims for their products, particularly where peoples' health are at risk.
I did dig about a bit with google but I could not find the video I vaguely remember - I wanted to review it and see if it still rang my alarm bells. I think it was on a manufacturer website so is probably now lost in the vaults...
Anyway, the newer video of the park skier falling and his ski releasing under lateral tail loading has helped me understand one of the actual real-world situations that you are attempting to protect against.
I have never seen a knee binding here in Europe - they may be around but in spite of being a gear geek, I don't scan every ski in the rack ! Are they more common in N.America ?
Anyway - what's the story with you going out on your own again ? Are you making a better product ? what will be the improvements over the kit that @Scottish Scrutineer and @kerb, have been using (In light of their comments above) ?
I do and I don't envy you - it must be hard to produce a new binding, especially in an industry that is so conservative and an environment that can be very litigious. This is a shame as traditional binding design may well have been a factor in my knee damage and I believe there is room for improvement.
Good luck in your new venture.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Edit: I saw the link to the Stowe Reporter story on the facebook ski.hub group - a useful site for ski news stories run by David Goldsmith.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| 5bind wrote: |
| It has been recently proven by leading biomechanical researchers in Montreal that bindings that have pure lateral heel release will avert ACL injuries and ruptures. |
If anyone has a link to this please post if still available.
| 5bind wrote: |
| Last season, it is estimated that approximately 17,000 skiing ACL-injuries were incurred in the US |
Depending on the source, the volume has increase significantly since you posted this, some sources say between 100,000 to 200,000 a year in the US alone, such as this one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499848 although I don't see where they obtained this info,
which is less than others I read in 2018 stating from 200,000 to 300,000. (may be helpful for you in establishing the importance of the device).
I'd be open to try these out if they are in western Canada at some point.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@@ryancartiers, I think you'll find 5bind may be a little biased. And I note no actual paper is cited.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@@ryancartiers, i have had these bindings for a number of years now. I have activated that actual release on one occasion. Can confirm I haven’t done a further damage to my knees since having them. They do make my skis heavier. Given the state of my left knee especially it is price worth paying in the hope of not doing further damage.
Edit to clarify I am referring to bindings link to in the original post of this thread
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| 5bind wrote: |
| Last season, it is estimated that approximately 17,000 skiing ACL-injuries were incurred in the US |
| Quote: |
Depending on the source, the volume has increase significantly since you posted this, some sources say between 100,000 to 200,000 a year in the US alone, such as this one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499848 although I don't see where they obtained this info,
which is less than others I read in 2018 stating from 200,000 to 300,000. (may be helpful for you in establishing the importance of the device). |
Very dubious about these figures. I'm definitely due a ACL tear (age, skill, terrain). All i've had is an MCl tear, and I know no one else with them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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This has been discussed on other threads.
Search and you'll find that the "research" pushed by the litigious promoter actually determined that compression tights were more effective at knee injury prevention (!) than the man's bindings. That "research" was paid for by this bindings salesman plus someone selling... compression tights. I guess that "research" therefore proves that he who pays most gets the best answer. Risable.
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| Quote: |
some sources say between 100,000 to 200,000 a year in the US alone, such as this one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499848 although I don't see where they obtained this info,
which is less than others I read in 2018 stating from 200,000 to 300,000. |
| Quote: |
| Very dubious about these figures. I'm definitely due a ACL tear (age, skill, terrain). All i've had is an MCl tear, and I know no one else with them. |
Most of the publications I've come across (several I've posted links to online) report the US range 100k - 300k, and Canadian stats are relative based on the population so it may be consistent, however I know from several people with them not all tears are reported, and many lag in when they are reported.
No one is 'due' an ACL tear - a lot of people never experience one - let's extend this trend as much as possible.
I also tore my MCL (at the same time as my ACL), so you're not alone.
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| @ryancartiers wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Very dubious about these figures. ... |
Most of the publications I've come across (several I've posted links to online) report the US range 100k - 300k ... |
Not the "publication" referenced, which on the specific you mention, says:
"The annual reported incidence in the United States alone is approximately 1 in 3500 people.
However, data may not be accurate as there is no standard surveillance. "
No reference is provided for which bit of the air that number was pulled from.
They claim to be ignorant of US based data collection and analysis from organisations like Kaiser. Astounding.
Much of the content seems to have been plagiarised from other sources and cut together somewhat randomly,
probably by machine, and with little regard for if any of it actually means anything when arranged in that order.
If you're quoting it, it's not because you read and understood it, because it is actually unreadable and it makes no sense.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@5bind, Great to have you on the forum, and many thanks for all the great info. I don't really understand it; but I want a pair for sure! 
Paging @CEM — what do you think?
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Telemark ...
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FAQ
