 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Snowheads. This is my first posting here.
I like to ski between the pistes, and outside the piste markers in the ungroomed snow. Does this count as "off-piste", in the sense that I should observe the standard advice about not doing it alone, and would I no longer be covered by my standard insurance ? I'm sure that it's not what is normally meant by off-piste, and it seems pretty safe, but perhaps I have overlooked something.
Does this kind of skiing employ similar techniques to "proper" off-piste skiing ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hi Franz, yes technically this may well be classed as off piste especially in europe, that said it is pretty safe and the ski pattrollers would rarely have any problems with you doing so. And if you are within say 10 to 20 M of the piste you don't really need to ski with others, though you may well wish to do so just for general safety. As far as insurrance goes there are plenty of policies that will cover you for unguided off piste at the same sort of price that you will pay for a policy that doesn't cover off piste
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Welcome, Franz. On the insurance front always ensure your cover includes off-piste, because even this dabbling with a bit of powder beyond the groomed snow would be defined as off-piste by your insurers.
No true skier isn't going to be tempted by some lovely powder within easy access of a piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And as a bit of clarification Franz, you will find a few "enlightened" resorts such as Baqueira Beret in the spanish Pyrenees, and just about any resort inb North America, where they have what they term "skiable domain", i.e. unless they specifically mark something as closed, it's fair game. A few resorts in europe are less obligin and would prefer that you stick to the pistes, although dipping off by a few metres might well be overlooked.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks for your replies. Yes, European resorts: I've only skied in Austria.
Can the snow just outside the piste markers be as deep as in the classic off-piste runs mentioned in that other recent thread ? What I mean is, if I can ski there, can I ski real off-piste ?
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Certainly, just because snow is just beyond the piste doesn't mean it's less deep than the real backcountry. It all depends on the wind conditions that prevailed during the snowfall.
Calm conditions mean even cover across the mountain. Windy conditions mean snow can vary enormously in depth from one part of the mountain to another. The lee (shadowed from wind) slopes of the mountain are where blizzards dump most snow, and the ridges induce turbulence, which puts down cornices that are sometimes metres deep and often dangerous.
Certainly the margins off the piste are ideal for a bit of powder practice. Rent some fatter skis if you want to cheat! Seriously, though, the new kit has reduced the traditional need to 'unweight' strongly to ski the powder so take advantage of the skis with bigger surface area. There's no point in fighting the stuff.
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Franz, welcome to snowHeads! 
Firstly the technicalities - from an insurer's point of view, yes, in this situation you are as off piste as it matters to them ie. they wont pay out if u have an accident. As said above, any ski policy that doesn't cover u off piste just isn't worth bothering with.
Now the practicalities - the big difference between on and off piste is the certainty you have about what's coming up. You can be sure that if you're within the markers, there won't be any sudden drops, rocks, holes etc. Once you are off piste by even 2feet, this assurance is gone and you have the responsibility to look out for these things yourself.
A tale from just off the piste:
Embarrassingly recently this happened to me. I was in a resort I'd never been to before. It was our first day and it was chucking it down with snow. The pistes had a lot of loose stuff on them but they were pretty well skied. I was coming down with Mme Brain and a friend (strictly on-pisters). We were on a blue or maybe a shallow bit of a red. In a moment of excitement I veered off the piste, round the wrong side of a marker pole, perhaps only 3-4feet but, thrilled to be off the piste for the first time that year...
Now, if I'd been in Tignes or Val-T, I'd have known the run and been aware that there was a 2-3feet deep hole just off the piste which, that day, was beautifully camouflaged by soft, new snow.
...Suddenly my skis drop away and stop, dead! I find myself lying, face down in 6inches of new snow, my feet having just cleared the tips of my skis.
It was a particularly funny moment and the girls were chuffed to bits that I was the first to fall over  I found myself making the mental note, "U don't know this place, stay on piste till u do!".
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If u hit the back of a submerged rock just the size of your head, at speed, it's going to do u damage, whether 2 feet or 2 miles from the nearest piste. Of course, there will be other concerns the further off u go. But, on piste, u can be reasonably sure u wont hit a submerged rock. U know that if the poles are black, it's hard and if they're blue, it's easy. U know that, at the end of the run, is a lift not a cliff. If the run is open, u can trust that people with good mountain experience have judged it to be 'safe' in all reasonable respects.
There is no 'safe off piste' and 'dangerous off piste'. There is simply the other side of the poles, where the judgment is yours and the adventure begins!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, Ref the last one.....
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| A 20 year old French woman was killed skiing by an avalanche in Tignes today. She had been skiing in the afternoon with a group that had strayed some meters from marked pistes when they were caught by the slide. |
Up on the glacier with Easiski early May, (heavy snowfall overnight, rapidly warming temperatures in morning) some clever dick was skiing just off-piste by the Leisse black, on the sharp gradient to the left as you ski down. He had a helluva shock when he brought down a large slab, just managing to stay above the slide. He was, what, no more than a dozen metres to the left of the piste markers?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PG, That's one of my favorite little pitches but it's got a long history small slips. I don't thgink anyone's been killed but I've had a couple of minor 'unpleasantries' there, interestingly both caused by a skier doing short powder turns but after us 6 boarders had scooted down without incident. We were caught in the last dregs of the slide 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Masque wrote: |
| PG, That's one of my favorite little pitches but it's got a long history small slips. |
Interesting.
Obviously slopes just off the piste are stabilized to a certain extent by skier compaction but fresh snow and other weather events can create dangers close to (and more rarely on) the pistes.
All ski resorts in Europe should be moving over to markings on the edge of pistes, rather than down the middle as is sometimes till the case, so the distinction of what is on and off the piste should be clear.
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rather than down the middle as is sometimes
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...........never seen that? Always been down the sides anywhere i've been in Europe.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Despite being a fellow trainee and disciple of Ali's I'd like to know the source of that statistic, Alan. It's the first time I've read it.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 23-09-04 0:33; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, the circumstances were that Ali had just led us down a powder pitch reached by traversing a short way off the side of the piste. Stopping at the bottom, we looked back and saw some other skiers following our traverse line but, naturally, going a little further to find the untracked snow. Ali said "there was a reason we took the line that we did, watch what happens next" and sure as eggs is eggs the slope gave way beneath those guys. Fortunately no disaster. That's when he made the comment, but given the sobering thoughts that we were thinking at the time I didn't think to press him for references
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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marc gledhill, well that's the point - Franz was asking if the "between pistes" was off piste or not. The problem is that it is easily accessible and therefore thoughts of danger maybe do not loom so highly in folks' minds as they would when venturing in the back country. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Despite being a fellow trainee and disciple of Ali's I'd like to know the source of that stastic, Alan. It's the first time I've read it. |
Don't know the source, but it seems a reasonable idea.
Edge of piste is often quite steep - and inviting - and often has mutiple layers of snow, of differering hardnesses (major cause of avalanches) - especially if they've got hardpack from previously being skied. Wouldn't take much to start one given those conditions. Edges of pistes also often contain trees. Only needs a little slip to steer you into the woodwork...
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