 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@stanton, @stanton, can we read from that there is no chance of you ever coming to the UK? Every cloud as they say
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Cool - I was always under the impression that airline travel between EU and non-EU countries happened at the moment?
While I am a Remain voter, and this is "technically correct", dont you think there is even the vaguest possibility (maybe a teensy weensy smidgin) that the EU and the UK will give each other a waiver on this??????
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am confident enough it will happen to have booked flights and accommodation for 13th April
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@nelly0168, the problem is that it is not as easy as just “giving a waiver”.
If the idiots manning the UK helm don’t get their act together and do crash out sans deal, flight suspension is a very real risk.
And on the basis of current behaviours...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@nelly0168, the problem is that it is not as easy as just “giving a waiver”.
If the idiots manning the UK helm don’t get their act together and do crash out sans deal, flight suspension is a very real risk.
And on the basis of current behaviours... |
I read the paper briefly, and it seems to me - sure someone will correct me - that much of the licencing is transferable, and even those parts that are not have a 2 year period to adjust to Third Country.
Or did I read that wrong?
TBH it doesnt affect my 2019 plans too much, I am in New Zealand Dec to Jan, then in Tignes for a bit - all ahead of next March !!
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| nelly0168 wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@nelly0168, the problem is that it is not as easy as just “giving a waiver”.
If the idiots manning the UK helm don’t get their act together and do crash out sans deal, flight suspension is a very real risk.
And on the basis of current behaviours... |
I read the paper briefly, and it seems to me - sure someone will correct me - that much of the licencing is transferable, and even those parts that are not have a 2 year period to adjust to Third Country.
Or did I read that wrong?
TBH it doesnt affect my 2019 plans too much, I am in New Zealand Dec to Jan, then in Tignes for a bit - all ahead of next March !! |
Thats how read much of it - though I did skim read it. I think there may be an issue for UK licences flying EU Registered planes & EU licences flying UK registered planes.
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I'll just come home on the Ferry - registered in the Caribbean, last time I looked.......
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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thestanton, never reads what he posts so its usually contrary to the point he trying make. Im guessing you wont be able to hire a car, all insurance will be invalid, no credit cards will work, RFID ski passes wont function and you wont be able to get a seat in your favourite restuarant.
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| nelly0168 wrote: |
| While I am a Remain voter, and this is "technically correct", dont you think there is even the vaguest possibility (maybe a teensy weensy smidgin) that the EU and the UK will give each other a waiver on this?????? |
I hope you're right, not least because I am due to fly from GVA to LHR on 30th March, literally the first day of Brexit. However, it's probably worth pointing out that Michel Barnier has essentially said that if the there is No Deal there is no deal. He said no side deals on specific things. If the UK becomes a Third Country on 30th March then all third country policies (or an absence of policies) apply. Now you can make a strong argument that the consequences of this kind of transport chaos are so serious that nobody in their right mind would allow it to happen, but those making such an argument should acknowledge that they are doing so despite what international laws and regulatiuons say, and despite what some of the key politicians have said.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| I am confident enough it will happen to have booked flights and accommodation for 13th April |
Fair enough. In contrast I am holding off booking in March on the basis that airlines will be running down their flights then - because they may have to reposition aircraft and eligible crews. Maybe I am over cautious, but I am not that desperate to fly that I’ll take the risk.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We'll be in Tignes on 29th March. Just hope the TO leaves us there (and not at GVA Airport) if it all goes t*ts-up. 
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| I am confident enough it will happen to have booked flights and accommodation for 13th April |
I've booked the week earlier... I'm not prepared to put my life on hold due to the brexit madness.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| RichClark wrote: |
| NickyJ wrote: |
| I am confident enough it will happen to have booked flights and accommodation for 13th April |
I've booked the week earlier... I'm not prepared to put my life on hold due to the brexit madness. |
+1
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Poster: A snowHead
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apparently
| Quote: |
| According to Airlines UK, which represents 13 UK-registered carriers, the European Commission has said it would put in place a "bare bones" aviation agreement with the UK to keep planes flying and to cover safety issues. |
I suspect this would only be temporary.
Imagine getting stuck in the mountains, could we claim refugee status due to fleeing war (brexit), persecution (brexit), or natural disaster (brexit)?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Little Martin wrote: |
apparently
| Quote: |
| According to Airlines UK, which represents 13 UK-registered carriers, the European Commission has said it would put in place a "bare bones" aviation agreement with the UK to keep planes flying and to cover safety issues. |
I suspect this would only be temporary.
Imagine getting stuck in the mountains, could we claim refugee status due to fleeing war (brexit), persecution (brexit), or natural disaster (brexit)? |
As long as your not in switzerland. They wouldnt let all the jews in during WW2
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My reading of the U.K. government paper was that they intended to allow EU registered aircraft to fly in and out of the U.K. and hoped that the EU would reciprocate. The whole thing does seem to smack of posturing. If only we could bang their silly heads together and knock some sense into them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I am assuming that ZRH and GVA will still accept UK flagged tails? So most of the Norther French Alps, Switzerland, and Western Austria still available ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| mishmash wrote: |
| I am assuming that ZRH and GVA will still accept UK flagged tails? So most of the Norther French Alps, Switzerland, and Western Austria still available ? |
I believe that Switzerland's aviation agreements are with the European Common Aviation Area rather than a bilateral with the UK's aviation authorities. Does that mean that if UK-EU flights go pear-shaped because of No Deal then UK-CH flights would be caught in the cross-fire?
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| mishmash wrote: |
| I am assuming that ZRH and GVA will still accept UK flagged tails? So most of the Norther French Alps, Switzerland, and Western Austria still available ? |
There might be a bijou problem in that (according to the map) UK flagged tails will still have to fly through EU airspace in order to reach Switzerland.... 
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Simply put, it reads as everything will be fine for a couple years, whats this big hooo haaa - Empty vessels make lots of noise etc etc. Get a grip folks, the world won't end, there will be milk and cornflakes on the shelves and you will still be able to buy wine and beer. Really.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Markhandford wrote: |
| Simply put, it reads as everything will be fine for a couple years, whats this big hooo haaa - Empty vessels make lots of noise etc etc. Get a grip folks, the world won't end, there will be milk and cornflakes on the shelves and you will still be able to buy wine and beer. Really. |
That's not what the government thinks might happen. What makes you think it won't happen? You have anything more than wishful thinking, and a belief that everyone will avoid it because the the possible consequences are too severe to contemplate?
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Prediction: very few of us will notice any difference in flight delay terms, there is too much reciprocal pain on offer. I don't proffer that argument for Brexit as a whole, but believe it for aviation. Queues, on the other hand, in foreign parts, mmm.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Charliegolf,
Except...
It Is Just Not As Simple As That.
Would you put your billion £ business and billion £ asset fleet at risk on the basis of,
“la, la, la, speak to the hand, no one would so stupid, look! unicorns!, look! rainbows!” ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Where does ICAO fit into all of this? This page discusses the question.
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International air transport is governed by the International Civil Aviation Authority (ICAO), not the EU. Rights such as overflight, access to Air Traffic Control, access to ground services are governed internationally. The ICAO also governs market access and the EU and UK are committed to providing access to airlines from around the world. The ICAO guarantees the following Freedoms of the Air:
To fly across the territory of either state without landing.
To land in either state for non-traffic purposes, e.g., refueling without boarding or disembarking passengers.
To land in the territory of the first state and disembark passengers coming from the home state of the airline.
To land in the territory of the first state and board passengers travelling to the home state of the airline.
To land in the territory of the first state and board passengers travelling on to a third state where the passengers disembark, e.g., a scheduled flight from the United States to France could pick up traffic in the UK and take all to France (sometimes termed beyond rights).
This guarantees that most current UK air services to and from the EU will continue after Brexit without any further agreement. |
Now from the tone of the article, the writer is pro-Brexit. However I have seen elsewhere that EASA and EU declarations are in breach of ICAO regulations. I do not know if that is true. Anybody (maybe chokcsway) able to give authoritative comment?
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You know it makes sense.
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@achilles, there are a number of authoritive documents, all of which same the same thing from what I can see. Nobody knows for certain what will happen, but it's helpful to know "what if..." type scenarios.
Document 1
Document 2
Document 3
Document 4
Do you doubt the veracity of these reports?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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From talking to someone involved in the aviation industry there has been debate in EASA as to whether, in the strict interpretation of the rules post a no deal BREXIT, any planes with UK parts on would be authorised to fly in the EU. Virtually all commercial airliners have either Rolls Royce engines or a significant amount of parts in GE engines. Not sure of the truth of this but surely would put the boot on the other foot from bargaining perspective.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| @rob@rar, I am not clear how they fit in with ICAO's freedoms - are you? |
No. But nobody of any relevance is talking about ICAO, including the UK government who I'm sure would like to be able to guarantee UK aviation will be unaffected by Brexit and therefore would be highlighting the ICAO if it helped provide that guarantee. I'm afraid I don't put any credence in your earlier link which, as you said, was clearly written by somebody with a hard Brexit agenda, and whose opinion seems to be something of an outlier. If the EU and the UK's technical notices for Brexit preparedness say that same thing about aviation, as they do, I think that's an authoritative position.
The House of Commons Library often does a good job of explaining regulatory matters so that they are easy to understand (their prime audience is MPs, so the level of insight and attention span is not high). This is what they have to say about Brexit and transport. It's worth a read.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It does make sense. The entire industry seems to agree, from what I have seen. But the government has ruled it out. Which is why it was necessary for the EU and the UK to publish those technical notices on what could happen when the UK withdraws, including the worst case scenario if there is no agreed replacement regulations for the system we are walking away from.
It's all a bit mad.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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the way i read it sounds like a better bet just to try and stay away from the UK carriers.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| essex wrote: |
| the way i read it sounds like a better bet just to try and stay away from the UK carriers. |
That would work if the UK does "throw the doors open" to EU carriers. I wonder if they will do that if the EU says "sorry, rules are rules, so no UK carriers to fly to EU destinations until there is a new regulatory environment agreed". If the UK is not prepared to to have such a one-sided deal (which would be an understandable reaction), then a better bet would be to try and stay away from the UK, not just UK carriers, until sanity returns. Avoiding UK carriers and possibly the UK itself until new aviation agreements are put in place is a significant business advantage to the EU, and they might feel justified in taking that approach as they'd no doubt feel that the UK has just walked away in a huff, leaving not much more than bad feelings in the EU countries.
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The RAeS paper I linked to says that the CAA is not well placed to act as a regulatory authority on its own, since EASA took over much of what the CAA did from 2005. In the past I had thought that membership of the EASA was independent of the EU. Not so, apparently.
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| achilles wrote: |
| The RAeS paper I linked to says that the CAA is not well placed to act as a regulatory authority on its own, since EASA took over much of what the CAA did from 2005. In the past I had thought that membership of the EASA was independent of the EU. Not so, apparently. |
achilles that is what my aviation contact said, if we are not in the EU we are not in EASA and EASA regulate more than flights it regulates what's in aircraft.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| achilles wrote: |
Where does ICAO fit into all of this? This page discusses the question.
| Quote: |
International air transport is governed by the International Civil Aviation Authority (ICAO), not the EU. Rights such as overflight, access to Air Traffic Control, access to ground services are governed internationally. The ICAO also governs market access and the EU and UK are committed to providing access to airlines from around the world. The ICAO guarantees the following Freedoms of the Air:
To fly across the territory of either state without landing.
To land in either state for non-traffic purposes, e.g., refueling without boarding or disembarking passengers.
To land in the territory of the first state and disembark passengers coming from the home state of the airline.
To land in the territory of the first state and board passengers travelling to the home state of the airline.
To land in the territory of the first state and board passengers travelling on to a third state where the passengers disembark, e.g., a scheduled flight from the United States to France could pick up traffic in the UK and take all to France (sometimes termed beyond rights).
This guarantees that most current UK air services to and from the EU will continue after Brexit without any further agreement. |
Now from the tone of the article, the writer is pro-Brexit. However I have seen elsewhere that EASA and EU declarations are in breach of ICAO regulations. I do not know if that is true. Anybody (maybe chokcsway) able to give authoritative comment? |
The problem with this is.
It is okay to refuel
It is okay to drop off passengers
It is okay to pick up in one (NOTE en route) and drop off in another.
Now the crucial point:.........
It is okay to pick up in the UK and go to EU. It is okay to pick up in the EU and go to the UK (All good so far)
It "may" not be okay to pick up in EG France with an empty plane and drop off in Germany for example.
What is not clear for the likes of easy jet etc is whether they can leave the UK, say at 6am and go LTN-CDG, and now it is 7.30AM so prime time to pick up someone form CDG and go to FRA with an expensive ticket. then at 10am pick up in FRA and go to LGW. Now we are in the middle of the day and it may be more convenient at gatwick to go from LGW to somewhere in spain with tourists. then do something similar on the way back to maximise revenue from each land/depart airport.
This may mean the airline goes UK-EU then form same airport EU to UK (may be limited traffic so less revenue = higher fares), the UK to EU then EU- UK.
This is not efficient for the likes of easy jet etc and could lead to higher fares. Then there is the point of where is the home for the airline. EJ is LTN so a UK company, but they have hedged to CH as far as I remember. Norwegian is an Irish airline now (but that was for pilots) BA is another story altogether.
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@GlasgowCyclops, Easyjet also have a Swiss operation, i suspect if things are nor bilaterally resolved, then for Easyjet at least, most flights would operate under the Swiss fleet rather than the UK fleet.
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FAQ
