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Snow tyres or No Snow tyres... a salutory lesson ...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thread on all seasons prompted me to post this.



Not a lot of snow about but not a lot of summer tyre traction for a heavy car...

It nearly landed on my head, had I been 2-3 minutes later in leaving dinner. That might have stung a little.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
What a load of nonsense. Idiot turns his car over. Big F***ing deal. This has absolutely nothing to do with tyres, but the driver is clearly a lady's front bottom.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Alastair, You were there, right?

Don't be a dick.

I've driven up and down that hill probably >200 times in winter and never have I found myself upside down. I have winter tyres.

Summer tyres, complete loss of control at the top of the hill. We watched it take to the air.

I bring you the Range Rover Sledge. Aerodynamics not its strongest suit.

There wasn't even that much snow on the road, as evidenced.
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@Alastair, ...goodness tone it down your post is well OTT ...uann was actually there and knows the circumstances ... actually people who think 4wd trump winter tyres can indeed screw up in this way with the amount of snow/ice shown in the picture. Such incidents can have a great deal to do with tyres. In similar winter circumstances in our village a non Swiss car with summers who was driving carefully simply slid into oncoming traffic on an off-camber turn...bang! The merc driver coming up the hill who was hit was not amused.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 26-04-18 16:20; edited 1 time in total
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@under a new name, come driving with me sometime. I have driven loads of hills without winter tyres over many years and have NEVER found myself upside down or out of control. Might save you from all the driving nonsense posted on this forum.

PS don't call me a dick unless you're happy for me to call you the same after we drive together.
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We sat behind an X5 in Dec, on the way down in heavy snow. He was sliding everywhere and had no chains. He was crawling along so we suggested he pull over and wait for conditions to improve, but he refused.

Just after St Foy, we watched as it slid down the hill, brakes locked up and played 'pin ball' between the stationary coaches and the wooden post/rail fencing at the side of the road.

Had the fencing been a teeny bit weaker, it would have gone off the side... a long way down.

That one event caused many tens of thousands in damage.

Our little Skoda Fabia on winter tyres was driving like it was on dry tarmac.
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@valais2, incidents like this are entirely due to driver incompetence. The driver of the car in this case is clearly incompetent.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Is it silly season already?
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It absolutely has to do with tyres!

There're summer tyres. There're also "all season" tyres. And not all the "all season" are created equal. But rarely are "all season" as good in winter as dedicated winter tyres.

If you have decent all season, and drive sensibly, you can do quite well. But if you have good winter tyres AND DRIVE SENSIBLY, you'll do even better!

If you have "all season" that are biased particularly bad in sub-zero temperature or wet condition, you don't have much of a chance!

I've had two cars that drive very differently in winter, all due to changing of tyres. Not even winter tyres on one of them. Just different sets of "all season". With the more "performance" tyres it came with, the car was uncontrollable on the slightest hint of snow. After a couple winter of near misses, I finally changed to another brand of "all season", one the local garage suggest to be the local favorite. The car was considerably more predictable on snow!

Now I got winter tyres on my new car. It was so much less stressful in winter driving.
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@ansta1, Er sure looks like it ..

Winter tyres, helmet discussions, brings out the worst in people.

@Alastair, you may have driven up and down without winters in some contexts but uann was saying that he knew the conditions and the driver was incompetent for driving in this instance without winters - and what do you know that says he’s wrong? I had the misfortune of a French side car on summers from GVA and no amount of skill could have got that car up from Mollens to Cotabloz on our hill. Two inches of fresh on ice - impossible. The car stayed in the village all week. I walked up the hill and got out our ancient Golf with winters and we chuntered up and down the hill without chains perfectly happily. Uann is on the money - you are out of order.
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Abc - blimey NYC - you certainly get some snow.

Agreed. We use a 4wd in CH with aggressive Michelin m&s tyres with snowflake symbol. They look like you could drive up the side of an office block on them. But compared to the Nokians winters on our Octavia they are cr’p in the snow - really really slidey. Quite fun ... but also quite hectic. 2wd Octavia with Nokians gets us places safely that the 4wd and m&s won’t. But summer mudplugging up to Arolla for climbing turns the tables...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@ansta1, don't be a dick, silly season started two weeks ago.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Layne, not quite, Grands Montets still open this weekend...
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@valais2, do me a favour. Whoever drove the car that resulted in this video is a lady's front bottom. I can't be bothered with dickheads who can't work out simple physics.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

who can't work out simple physics

Friction coefficient!

That's indeed simple physics. Winter tyres are designed to maximize friction IN WINTER! Softer rubber, more open tread pattern, etc... You just argued against your own position. Laughing

Now, if your point is this driver should have kept his summer car with summer tyres in the car park, which is what I call "sensible driving" (know the condition your car CAN'T handle!), I would agree with you. Very Happy
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@under a new name, ...I had heard that opening of silly season had been delayed due to current conditions.

Oh well good at physics bad at human relations...

Hmm abc .. actually you’re right .. bad at physics too
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Alastair, tbh, I absolutely challenge you to get down my hill on summers with snow per those conditions and I absolutely guarantee I won’t be sitting in the car with you...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This is fun
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@holidayloverxx, popcorn ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Hells Bells, Ooh yes please - salt and sweet mix please
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Alastair wrote:
What a load of nonsense. Idiot turns his car over. Big F***ing deal. This has absolutely nothing to do with tyres, but the driver is clearly a lady's front bottom.

So tbe car loses grip, slides down a hill & overturns and it's nothing to do with tyres?
Yes, the driver is a fool for getting in the car knowing that the tyres have no grip in those conditions.

I once turned into an unfamiliar road covered in snow, only to realise too late that it was a long, steep hill, I fought to stop the car getting any faster all the way down, debating whether to deliberately crash ot into a wall rather than go straight out onto the busy main road at the bottom. I was just 19 at the time and a mixure of cadence braking & driving in the deep snow all ended well, had I been on winter tyres it would have been a non event.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Sooo many people think winter tyres are all about not getting stuck and no more, till they find a steep down hill or a bend.
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@under a new name, ...I was thinking of the vineyard roads around Bloney - would like to see someone using ‘skill’ rather than winters to get down those in two inches of fresh on ice. Hilarious.
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valais2 wrote:
@under a new name, ...I was thinking of the vineyard roads around Bloney - would like to see someone using ‘skill’ rather than winters to get down those in two inches of fresh on ice. Hilarious.


@Alistair could do that with his eyes closed. (mine probably would be in the passenger seat Toofy Grin )
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The problem is that people think they are OK (or even a driving god), right up to the point that they are not OK.

It's then too late to stop and put your chains on (under the filthy wheels arches, with heavy snow coming down and freezing cold fingers).

But don't let us stop you giving the 'summers' a go.
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Isn't it the case BOTH that the vehicle was ill-equipped for the conditions AND that to have overturned the car the driver had to be driving like a dick? I have failed to get up a hill even with winter tyres - and I have had to put chains on summer tyres to deal with a freak October snowfall when I still had summers on. I have also lost the back end of my car and done a gentle 180 skid. But I have never even come close to turning over a car (not that I drive such a daft one in the first place).
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@bar shaker, personally I stay away from going under the filthy arches

I would say Darwin Principle here but people tiptoeing around on summers in the Jura during a horizontal dump are a menace to others as well as themselves
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@pam w, ... this guy had summers on and look what happened

https://s.blogcdn.com/cars.aol.co.uk/media/2012/02/mitsubishi-shogun-crushed-b.jpg
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@valais2, nothing a bit of t-cut and 2 paracetamol wouldn't fix.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@ansta1, n Little Angel

Note the people here survived (or I certainly would not have posted it)
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I note that there are no Renault Twingos/Fiat Pandas with bald tyres being featured in these rollover crashes. Clearly the physics of perpetually being driven in the red zone overtaking round blind bends keeps them on the road through gyroscopic effect.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, it’s because Pandas are powered by faith while Twingos are powered by Gallic indifference...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w wrote:
Isn't it the case BOTH that the vehicle was ill-equipped for the conditions AND that to have overturned the car the driver had to be driving like a dick? I have failed to get up a hill even with winter tyres - and I have had to put chains on summer tyres to deal with a freak October snowfall when I still had summers on. I have also lost the back end of my car and done a gentle 180 skid. But I have never even come close to turning over a car (not that I drive such a daft one in the first place).

Totally agree regarding turning the car over part. It's possible but it does take some recklessness on the driver part.

I've had many similar incidents like the ones you experienced due to inadequate tyres. But to turn the car over takes a bit more than that. Having said that, I must admit I, like many others, learned from bad experience. I did my first 180 as a new driver. My 2nd 180 was when I got my car with its "performance tyres". That was followed by sliding into a busy intersection at the bottom of a long hill, though fortunately everyone else was driving more sensibly in control and went around me. Embarassed o On the plus side, I've slowed down in anticipating other less-than-sensible drivers sliding into my path in more than one occasions, which saved me from many other such fender-benders.

The point of the winter tyres, like anti-lock brakes, is it gives average driver a bigger buffer in marginal conditions. Some drivers, unfortunately, took those extra margin and push the "new" envelope. For those, they can still flip their cars even WITH winter tyres!
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So, a little more info.

1. @Alastair, if you would prefer me to not refer to you as a dick, don't make the sorts of comments that a dick would make.

2.Our hill averages 1:6. Which is pretty steep. There are some reasonably not steep parts but crucially the top section is I guess maybe 1:10. It's hard to walk down with touring boots if it has snowed.

3. The car didn't roll. It slid down our hill - clearly with some modicum of control as the road is not straight - but out of control from the top. Apparently (we talked at great length with the occupants) the car lost control basically as soon as it turned onto the hill. Not driving like a dick either, although I see how that it might look like it!

4. I saw them as we walked up the bottom of the hill and thankfully had the presence of mind to have us jump onto a small wall out of the way. The car passed us at ound 50kph with all 4 wheels locked (or ABS-ing) hit an asymmetrical snow berm at the bottom which acted as a ramp, threw them about 10m into the air and luckily a mature* pine tree was in the way, which completed the flip otherwise they might well have ended up in the apartment block across the road.

It happened in the space of a few seconds. The car landed on the pedestrian crossing which I had used 3 minutes previously. Thankfully the driver and passenger were (as far as we know at this point) only scraped and bruised.

A. Snow tyres may have prevented this. No guarantee. I have briefly lost traction descending with snow tyres and a somewhat lighter car.

B. No way, @Alastair do I see you safely ascending or descending our hill in proper snow on summers. No. Way.

The perpetrators ought to have had winters on but this illustrates very nicely how folks can get into the "4x4 doesn't need winters" argument.

*The pine tree did not survive
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10 meters in the air! Seriously? Shocked

They're a big heavy bus them Range Rovers. To get one of them that high takes some doing. Imo, it'd be a bit flatter than that if it landed on its roof from 10M.

Slightly OT I know sorry.
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@under a new name, as apparently it's now acceptable to refer to other snowHeads as dicks (it never was when I started here) then let's all join in together.

1. If you think that driving was acceptable then you're a dick as well.

2. FFS, I've landed an aeroplane on 1:6. So?

3. So what?

4. The driver lost control for the conditions, so was incompetent.

4. So?

B: You have declared me incompetent without meeting me. Do one. At least you've admitted it.
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@Alastair, maybe you have superhuman powers that mean you can control a car with no traction on a steep slope. But I daresay you are not insured to do so when the law states you should have appropriate equipment for the conditions.
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@queenie pretty please, Maybe I do Toofy Grin . Or maybe I'm just a competent driver. Madeye-Smiley

I would agree entirely with the need to use snow tyres where they're required by law, by the way. Please don't take my views as an exhortation to break the law. I'm just bored silly with people telling me that winter tyres are needed when they're not.
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@Alastair, your initial response was (in more than my view) inappropriate, and rude.

What has landing a plane to do with it? (Unless, “I’m a pilot, therefore superior”?). Also, what ‘fields have a 1:6 gradient? Please enlighten... Courchevel doesn’t even seem to average that...

The driver may or may not have been incompetent. Immaterial. They would in any case have needed better than summer tyres in the situation.

“4.” Would you prefer bullet points?

B. No. Just basic physics, of which you have reassured us you are well aware of.
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@under a new name, my apologies if you thought I was rude. It's never my intention to be so and I apologise.

Understanding a slope with a 1:6 gradient is fundamental to driving (or landing) on it. I wouldn't suggest a pilot is superior in this, although an understanding of the ground does help. To keep the relevance, try Courchevel - easy to land on but extra care is sensible.

My whole point is that we're talking about drivers who are incompetent; adding "winter" tyres doesn't address this and encourages incompetent drivers to 'give it a go'.

In the vast majority of difficult situations, a bit more care will enable a competent driver to complete their journey without additional assistance.
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