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Tips for skiing in deep/powder/off piste snow

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@BobinCH, Untracked whenever possible. I like the idea of a lightish ski as it is much easier to carry on your rucksack. The Nordicas were quite heavy and @ 100mm I felt like I had taken up snowboarding! (Which I would be happy to do if I had the time to learn a new sport, so Iím not having a pop at any snowboarders who may be reading)

I think the Holy Grail is a lightweight ski 85-90mm wide with some rocker in front and approximately 175-190cm long which performs like a slalom ski. Does this ski exist?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
uktrailmonster wrote:
One of the very best skiers I know (and he is seriously good having spent his whole career on snow) doesn't bother with anything over 90 mm waist in any condition on or off piste (he's a big guy too, not some lightweight). Not suggesting I would do the same for a moment, but skiing is not all about the skis and assumptions are often wide of the mark, LOL.


That's why these threads always turn to ratshit - the defensiveness around "really good skiers" skiing off piste on relatively skinny skis. If they do (having sampled the variety of stuff out there and having made a conscious decision) then good for them. It doesn't make it the best decision for everyone nor the best advice for someone getting into off piste. I know I'm not alone in taking a view that the best ski on a given day is the fattest you can get away with in the worst conditions be it rock hard early morning groomers etc etc as a wider ski buys versatility. But taking that view means you give up technical precision. Everything is a compromise and personal taste is relevant.


I'm really just saying that modern "relatively narrow AM skis" are actually pretty good off-piste and especially so in the sort of "beginner" off-piste that the OP should be considering at this stage. There's no need to rock up with some Alaskan peak slaying beast of a powder ski to begin skiing off-piste. Well at least I didn't think so anyway. But depends if we are talking about dedicated heli-skiing (where you may as well go large) or simply venturing a little off the side of pistes after a fresh snowfall (when you may as well stay on your lighter, more nimble AM skis).
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Gordyjh wrote:

I think the Holy Grail is a lightweight ski 85-90mm wide with some rocker in front and approximately 175-190cm long which performs like a slalom ski. Does this ski exist?


Nordica Navigator 90. Not super light, but definitely not heavy. Obviously nothing 90mm wide will be a slalom ski but the pretty flat tail and short turn radius point in that direction, while the tip rocker and general fatness (that short turn radius is coming from wide tip & tail) gets you floating.
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jedster wrote:
@Mike Pow,

Quick clarification - when you say twin-tipped do you really mean full rockered? I don't really see why twin tips as such are important for intermediates learning to ski powder.


No.

Twin-tipped bi-directional skis which are designed & built to be centre mounted.

The tips and tails are raised but the long length of the ski is traditionally cambered.

The raised tips & tails and centre mount make pivotting easier, both on and off-piste.

The camber makes edging and carving on piste a known 'known' to skiers used to a traditional ski.

Put enough width in tip, waist and tail and you have a great powder ski.

Overall a true all-mountain ski IMHO.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Mike Pow wrote:
jedster wrote:
@Mike Pow,

Quick clarification - when you say twin-tipped do you really mean full rockered? I don't really see why twin tips as such are important for intermediates learning to ski powder.


No.

Twin-tipped bi-directional skis which are designed & built to be centre mounted.

The tips and tails are raised but the long length of the ski is traditionally cambered.

The raised tips & tails and centre mount make pivotting easier, both on and off-piste.

The camber makes edging and carving on piste a known 'known' to skiers used to a traditional ski.

Put enough width in tip, waist and tail and you have a great powder ski.

Overall a true all-mountain ski IMHO.


Well I have to say that my 2012 Line SFBs are the best AM ski I've ever owned. They are fairly wide at 108 mm underfoot, but ridiculously easy to pivot, while providing plenty of float in powder. They were designed for playing around in powder and it really shows if you can get on with a centre mounted ski.
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Gordyjh wrote:


I think the Holy Grail is a lightweight ski 85-90mm wide with some rocker in front and approximately 175-190cm long which performs like a slalom ski. Does this ski exist?


Fischer Transalp - but like all lightweight skis it is not extremely durable.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:


jedster wrote:
@Mike Pow,

Quick clarification - when you say twin-tipped do you really mean full rockered? I don't really see why twin tips as such are important for intermediates learning to ski powder.


No.

Twin-tipped bi-directional skis which are designed & built to be centre mounted.

The tips and tails are raised but the long length of the ski is traditionally cambered.

The raised tips & tails and centre mount make pivotting easier, both on and off-piste.

The camber makes edging and carving on piste a known 'known' to skiers used to a traditional ski.

Put enough width in tip, waist and tail and you have a great powder ski.

Overall a true all-mountain ski IMHO.


Interesting - have to say that the twin tipped traditionally cambered skis I have are not noticeably easier to pivot than a flat tailed ski but then they are not centre mounted. They are probably a tad stiff for an intermediate too.
I still think something like the Rossi sky 7 - plenty of sidecut, a bit of traditional camber under foot, not too fat but with some tip and tail rocker - is a better bet than a twin tip. I think the twin tip itself is a red herring
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Steilhang wrote:
@Mosha Marc, you forgot "Rad" and "Stoked", (preceded with "like really ")


Use the phrase" Surf's up beatchez!!" regularly and you'll instantly gain Gnar points and become a better pow skier.

Also Yellow Noronna onsie


Don't want to be a kill joy but there are no points for saying "surf's up beatchez". Pro Call Outs or an Ego Claim are a good place to start (500 points each).
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@galpinos, -ve Gnar points for pedantry
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SlipnSlide wrote:
decent amount of fresh snow most days.

while I know that most experienced skiers love skiing in deep powder snow I tend to find it quite a struggle tbh.

I'm a reasonable piste skier comfortable taking on most blacks...

Whenever I try skiing in deeper snow, if I actually try and turn in the stuff it feels like my skis won't turn..,

Anyone got any tips on how to turn effectively in deeper snow and where I might be going wrong? (I was on a pair of "all mountain" skis which were supposed to be OK for the deeper stuff so it was my technique that was the problem rather than the equipment I think)


uktrailmonster, so heís on all mountains and struggling to turn in deeper snow. He wants tips to make it easier and start enjoying it. Your recommendation seems to be that AM should be fine for people of his level so he should get a lesson???

By all means get a lesson, but for Christís sake, get some skis designed for powder as well. Not 90mm all mountains! Why on earth would someone with less skills benefit from a narrower ski than an expert??? The expert can ski on anything - you said it yourself with your big mate. The beginner needs the most help. Which means a nice wide base, soft and rockered. This is just the laws of physics!

IMHO you are totally misguided to put wide skis in the Alaska/Japan only bucket. Any time there is powder in any country at any skier level they are the best skis to use and many of them are perfectly decent on piste too now for when it gets variable or for the piste home. Your 2012 Line SFBís were the best skis youíve used so why wouldnít wider be even better in powder? What wider skis have you tried that brought you to that conclusion?

Iím banging on because people miss out on new and better experiences through this blinkered thinking. Most of which comes from people who havenít even tried wider skis / different shapes / new light carbon constructions.

Any off piste skier not trying out the popular fat skis out there is majorly missing out on better skiing experiences. Unsurprisingly, ski technology is getting better every year and renting is a very easy way for even 1 week a season skiers to enjoy that amazing feeling of floating in powder!
snow report     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jedster wrote:
Quote:


jedster wrote:
@Mike Pow,

Quick clarification - when you say twin-tipped do you really mean full rockered? I don't really see why twin tips as such are important for intermediates learning to ski powder.


No.

Twin-tipped bi-directional skis which are designed & built to be centre mounted.

The tips and tails are raised but the long length of the ski is traditionally cambered.

The raised tips & tails and centre mount make pivotting easier, both on and off-piste.

The camber makes edging and carving on piste a known 'known' to skiers used to a traditional ski.

Put enough width in tip, waist and tail and you have a great powder ski.

Overall a true all-mountain ski IMHO.


Interesting - have to say that the twin tipped traditionally cambered skis I have are not noticeably easier to pivot than a flat tailed ski but then they are not centre mounted. They are probably a tad stiff for an intermediate too.
I still think something like the Rossi sky 7 - plenty of sidecut, a bit of traditional camber under foot, not too fat but with some tip and tail rocker - is a better bet than a twin tip. I think the twin tip itself is a red herring


It's the combination of twin-tip and centre mounting that's the difference IMHO.

'Plenty of sidecut' can be a hindrance for intermediates learning to ski powder.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Mike Pow wrote:
BobinCH wrote:
@Layne, just trying to debunk the common misconception that fat skis are only for experts in Alaska/Japan. When in fact they would revolutionize the powder skiing experience for many recreational skiers were they to try them.


No argument there.

But the core skills have to be in place otherwise it can be 'Mr Toad's Wild Ride' 😉


I agree you need the core skills as well, even more so if you want to get the maximum enjoyment from wider skis.

I think we should also bear in mind that many powder runs end in what some refer to as combat skiing to battle your way back to a lift, such as crappy snow low down and narrow trails through trees and you need to be competent enough to handle that.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Am I missing the point here....good basic technique & understanding what your trying to achieve has to be the goal.
Fat skis do not turn poor skiers into powder gods.......ever!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Rogerdodger wrote:
Am I missing the point here....good basic technique & understanding what your trying to achieve has to be the goal.
Fat skis do not turn poor skiers into powder gods.......ever!


Iím not arguing that good technique isnít the goal.

Iím just saying that for the same skier with the same skills they can turn a field of powder from a struggle to a pleasure. And I say this from experience, not some armchair based opinion.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
richjp wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
BobinCH wrote:
@Layne, just trying to debunk the common misconception that fat skis are only for experts in Alaska/Japan. When in fact they would revolutionize the powder skiing experience for many recreational skiers were they to try them.


No argument there.

But the core skills have to be in place otherwise it can be 'Mr Toad's Wild Ride' 😉


I agree you need the core skills as well, even more so if you want to get the maximum enjoyment from wider skis.

I think we should also bear in mind that many powder runs end in what some refer to as combat skiing to battle your way back to a lift, such as crappy snow low down and narrow trails through trees and you need to be competent enough to handle that.


No you are better off with fat skis in powder whatever your level. Your skill level will then expand what you can ski - steeper slopes, more variable snow. An intermediate piste skier can enjoy a mellow powder field on the right skis. An expert would struggle in windblown snow on stiff, narrow skis.

The OP mentioned nothing about remote powder runs and combat skiing. Given his description itís highly likely he was skiing between the pistes, but in decent powder. His skills are what they are. Itís very difficult to change skills overnight but you can change your skis by a visit to the hire shop. And frankly whatever your skills powder is more fun on fat skis as 99% of people whoíve skied a decent pair would attest.
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BobinCH wrote:
SlipnSlide wrote:
decent amount of fresh snow most days.

while I know that most experienced skiers love skiing in deep powder snow I tend to find it quite a struggle tbh.

I'm a reasonable piste skier comfortable taking on most blacks...

Whenever I try skiing in deeper snow, if I actually try and turn in the stuff it feels like my skis won't turn..,

Anyone got any tips on how to turn effectively in deeper snow and where I might be going wrong? (I was on a pair of "all mountain" skis which were supposed to be OK for the deeper stuff so it was my technique that was the problem rather than the equipment I think)


uktrailmonster, so heís on all mountains and struggling to turn in deeper snow. He wants tips to make it easier and start enjoying it. Your recommendation seems to be that AM should be fine for people of his level so he should get a lesson???

By all means get a lesson, but for Christís sake, get some skis designed for powder as well. Not 90mm all mountains! Why on earth would someone with less skills benefit from a narrower ski than an expert??? The expert can ski on anything - you said it yourself with your big mate. The beginner needs the most help. Which means a nice wide base, soft and rockered. This is just the laws of physics!

IMHO you are totally misguided to put wide skis in the Alaska/Japan only bucket. Any time there is powder in any country at any skier level they are the best skis to use and many of them are perfectly decent on piste too now for when it gets variable or for the piste home. Your 2012 Line SFBís were the best skis youíve used so why wouldnít wider be even better in powder? What wider skis have you tried that brought you to that conclusion?

Iím banging on because people miss out on new and better experiences through this blinkered thinking. Most of which comes from people who havenít even tried wider skis / different shapes / new light carbon constructions.

Any off piste skier not trying out the popular fat skis out there is majorly missing out on better skiing experiences. Unsurprisingly, ski technology is getting better every year and renting is a very easy way for even 1 week a season skiers to enjoy that amazing feeling of floating in powder!


Let's go back to the OP's first post "Its a great feeling gliding across a bit of fresh powder at the side of the piste, but if I actually try and turn in the stuff it feels like my skis won't turn". Sounds like a lesson here would be far more valuable than throwing some wider skis at the job. It's not like he was on slalom race skis. How wide do you suggest he should go? 110, 120 mm or even more? My 2 widest skis are both 108 mm underfoot and I've also got a pair of AM skis around 100 mm. All are totally competent and fun in powder and actually the 100 mm skis are the easiest to turn in deep snow simply because they are lighter and more nimble. One of my 108 mm "powder" skis actually require quite a bit of effort to swing around and I certainly wouldn't recommend those for an off-piste beginner. We know you like fat, lightweight DPS skis and I'm sure they're great, but that's a lot of cash to throw at the OP's obvious lack of skill and experience!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Errr no, it sounds like heís on some typical ďall mountainĒ skis which usually means a wider piste ski, probably 80-90mm wide, not all suited to powder. And he specifically referred to deeper snow, not some tracked dust on crust, where the AMís may still be ok. And heís probably skiing slowly so the only way he can turn is to lean back to get the tips out the snow and force his way round or snow ploughing. Tiring and no fun at all. A lesson might make a bit of difference, but the right skis will make a much bigger difference.

108 Rossi Soul 7ís, 112 DPS Wailers, 116 Armada JJís, 124 DPS Lotus. All would work. Hire shops will have other similar models.

Your 108ís sound heavy and stiff and probably not very rockered - what are they? I was very clear on soft and rockered in addition to fat.

Whoís talking about throwing cash? Heís probably renting anyway - just ask for something different on the powder day. Probably free, at worst pay the upgrade price for the day. And I donít believe lessons are free?

Read the first and last post here. http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=135262&highlight=

You donít think that would also help the OP? Iím sure it would.
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uktrailmonster wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
jedster wrote:
@Mike Pow,

Quick clarification - when you say twin-tipped do you really mean full rockered? I don't really see why twin tips as such are important for intermediates learning to ski powder.


No.

Twin-tipped bi-directional skis which are designed & built to be centre mounted.

The tips and tails are raised but the long length of the ski is traditionally cambered.

The raised tips & tails and centre mount make pivotting easier, both on and off-piste.

The camber makes edging and carving on piste a known 'known' to skiers used to a traditional ski.

Put enough width in tip, waist and tail and you have a great powder ski.

Overall a true all-mountain ski IMHO.


Well I have to say that my 2012 Line SFBs are the best AM ski I've ever owned. They are fairly wide at 108 mm underfoot, but ridiculously easy to pivot, while providing plenty of float in powder. They were designed for playing around in powder and it really shows if you can get on with a centre mounted ski.


+1 for Line SFBs, which are the type @Mike Pow describes - centre mounted twin tips with early rise rocker but camber underfoot. I skied Rossi Sin 7 at a UCPA offpiste course in 2017, but took my own Line SFBs this year and it was like night and day for me. I actually have my Line SFBs mounted about 6cm back from centre (centre felt really far forwards). Donít know about twin tips - if you watch vids of the ski designer, Eric Pollard, heís skiing pow backwards which Iíll obviously never be doing (on purpose). But they ski shorter with twin tips so logical that they are easier to pivot.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Gordyjh, I just bought Fischer Ranger 90 Ti and they sound like this. Itís my first set of wider skis (I was a snowborder) and really no nothing about skis other than I liked these when tested.
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@Gordyjh, hereís some options...
https://freeskier.com/stories/top-25-mountain-skis-2017-2018
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So if I have understood this correctly, for skiing powder you strap a pair of snowboards to your feet and launch yourself down the mountain? Is there more?
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BobinCH wrote:
@Gordyjh, hereís some options...
https://freeskier.com/stories/top-25-mountain-skis-2017-2018


Great link, thanks.

My go to Euro ski would be the Volkl Revolt 95 Smile

https://freeskier.com/gear/volkl-revolt-95-skis-2017-2018
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Steilhang wrote:
So if I have understood this correctly, for skiing powder you strap a pair of snowboards to your feet and launch yourself down the mountain? Is there more?


Laughing Laughing Laughing

The summary

1. Little money, no time = rent a pair of modern, wider waisted powder specific skis which may or may not include rocker and reverse camber. Plenty of recommendations in this thread.

2. Money & time = take a lesson, let the instructor recommend a ski to rent.
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out of interest, what width would you put on for kids mucking around to the sides of pistes after fresh snow?? I'm away this New Year with my 18 year old and 15 year old, but fairly light and athletic and I'd be interesting in hiring them a wider set if the conditions pan out....
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BobinCH wrote:
Errr no, it sounds like heís on some typical ďall mountainĒ skis which usually means a wider piste ski, probably 80-90mm wide, not all suited to powder. And he specifically referred to deeper snow, not some tracked dust on crust, where the AMís may still be ok. And heís probably skiing slowly so the only way he can turn is to lean back to get the tips out the snow and force his way round or snow ploughing. Tiring and no fun at all. A lesson might make a bit of difference, but the right skis will make a much bigger difference.

108 Rossi Soul 7ís, 112 DPS Wailers, 116 Armada JJís, 124 DPS Lotus. All would work. Hire shops will have other similar models.

Your 108ís sound heavy and stiff and probably not very rockered - what are they? I was very clear on soft and rockered in addition to fat.

Whoís talking about throwing cash? Heís probably renting anyway - just ask for something different on the powder day. Probably free, at worst pay the upgrade price for the day. And I donít believe lessons are free?

Read the first and last post here. http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=135262&highlight=

You donít think that would also help the OP? Iím sure it would.


I see you like to make assumptions Laughing The 108s I'm talking about are 2018 BC Atris, which I think we can at least agree are a pretty modern design (relatively forward mount, rockered tips and tails, progressive flex, etc) and not overly stiff. But they are still a lot of ski for a novice to be handling at slow speed in powder and I would consider them massive overkill for learning on. A friend of ours came out to stay with us this season and he is a typical 1 or 2 week per year long time piste skier who has little experience in powder. It snowed like crazy the week he came and we ended up skiing inbounds powder for much of the time, which was totally out of his comfort zone. He hired a pair of Atomic Vantage 90s on the first day (widest skis he's ever used) and liked them so much, stayed on them the whole week. For the deeper days I did suggest trying something wider, but he was comfortable with the Vantage 90s and didn't have any issues skiing knee deep powder in them once he got a few runs under his belt. They were also very good on-piste in soft snow conditions as you might well expect. I was using my BC Atris until I realised they were unnecessarily hard work in the tighter tree lines and eventually reverted to my trusty Line SFBs, which for me are a much easier ride at that width and especially so at lower speeds and/or in tight spaces. I also used my Volkl 90Eights for mixed days, which again are a lot easier to ski than the BC Atris and far more versatile.

I don't have an issue with the wider skis that you are suggesting, but hiring DPS skis has got to be a challenge and Rossi Soul 7s are a bit of a quirky marmite sort of ski, although probably not a bad choice for the job. But I honestly don't think any of the modern sub 100 mm AM skis would hold someone back from their first deep snow days and if you really can't ski deep powder at all on a modern 90+ mm AM ski then you probably shouldn't be there in the first place or looking more at your technique than choice of ski. Simply going wider and wider until you can cope is not IMHO a great strategy and certainly won't make you a better skier. The days are long gone where it was genuinely tiresome to attempt to ski powder on super skinny straight skis. Even some pretty focused modern piste skis (Head iTitans for example) are not that difficult to take into powder with a modest skill set.

We're clearly not going to agree on this, which is fine. I see you are totally sold on DPS wide skis, which I can believe. But they are super, super lightweight for their width and probably a lot more versatile than more typical skis of similar width, especially hire skis with typically heavyweight bindings. My BC Atris feel like a lot of load on my feet and they are far from agile when compared with a 100 mm AM ski and yet they don't make skiing powder night and day easier and in many cases they are actually harder to ski.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Oh, one thing about twip tips. I do a lot of forest skiing and have a penchant for rocky gullies so I often have to back up a little to adjust line round obstacles. When I started off piste adventures (On Rossi B2's with a massive 78mm underfoot) I often found that the back of the ski would run under the snow and get stuck when I did this. Switching to the Enforcers made a massive difference with this, and also seemed to not get hung up when making slower speed turns in crusty snow as a straight backed ski would.

Anyhow, OP... just demo when you hire, swap and change, and if you spot a manufacturers demo day on the mountain try as many as you can.

As an aside, this season I took a pair of 65mm race GS skis out in easy terrained fluffy powder. I remained upright but by god they made me work. Swapped back to the fatter rully rockered skis and was back in the playground Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Quote:

And heís probably skiing slowly so the only way he can turn is to lean back to get the tips out the snow and force his way round or snow ploughing


as we are supposed to be talking about technique here can I just point out that while I know where you are coming from, statements like this tend to mislead beginners in powder. Even on an all mountain 80mm waist ski it is perfectly possible to turn without leaning back - indeed much easier to do so. Afterall plenty of us learned to do that on 60mm waist skis!

1. you need to be patient to allow the ski to build a base
2. you need to compress/flex your knees as you are building the base
3. you need to extend and pivot off the base

If the snow is really wet and heavy and you are really "underskied" for your weight (e.g. on slalom skis) and your tips are diving when you are straightlining then you can PULL UP ON YOUR TOES using the small muscles on the front of you shins to help the tips plane without shifting your weight back which ALWAYS reduces your ability to steer the skis. Leaning back in powder is WRONG.
snow conditions     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hi, OP back again.

First, thanks for all the replies. I wasn't expecting this thread to run for so long but I'm pleased that I seemed to have sparked an interesting discussion that will hopefully be useful to others.

A lot of you have recommended trying out the fatter powder skis. I'll certainly bear that in mind next time I'm away if I'm lucky enough to get some decent powder again. One question though. How do the really fat skis perform on the piste? Even on a good powder day I'm still likely to be spending at least 50% of my time on the piste.

Regardless of the skis though I still think that a lot of the problems were down to my technique. I was skiing with a couple of others who were also on all-mountain or piste skis and they seemed to handle the off-piste slightly better than I did. So probably also worth me investing in a lesson in off-piste skiing next time if conditions are right?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@jedster, you are, of course, right. I was describing what I suspect heís feeling and not what he should do. Your tips will help him whatever the skis. Probably having the confidence to ski a bit faster will help too although it will feel counter intuitive to him.

I donít mean to undervalue technique or the obvious benefits of a clearly very talented and committed instructor like @Mike Pow. I love the fact that heís worked out a method that works for him and his students, and by God from those videos you have to envy his students!!!

Also appreciate @uktrailmonster, that iím making big assumptions - mainly wrong ones it seems 😜 - and am surprised about your experience with the Atris and 90Eights. Mine (albeit with 100Eights) was the opposite, although I wasnít a huge fan of the Atris, but due to feeling less pop than some other similar skis (Blizzard Rustler 12 was my favorite that day). Fully agree that weight plays a big part in my love for the DPS Lotus. They are just so much easier to ski everywhere than the 193 Volkl Shiros they replaced. As I said before, ski technology evolves faster than you think and I think DPS are one of the ones pushing the boundaries - everyone should try the Wailer, and if you like the Wailer try and find a pair of a Lotus 124. Not cheap but worth every penny.

What is clear from this thread is that there are skis in all width classes that work well off piste. Shape, construction, weight, length in addition to width provide different on snow feel. As per Scarpa, and others, the best advice is to try as many as you can when you have the chance. Most good ski hire shops allow you to change several times. BUT donít rule out the super fat skis! It was a chance test of a massive pair of Volkl Kuros (132mm) on a big powder day in Engelberg many years ago that simply blew me away as to the fun of skiing a fully rockered powder beast. I bought a pair and skied them everywhere for 5 years before breaking them. Even bought skins for them - although it was madness. Nothing better than finding those skis you just click with! I have had 5 loves in my ski life: K2 Seth Morissonís, Dynastar Legend Pros, Volkl Kuros, DPS Wailers and now DPS Lotus 124.

Good thread. The OP, if heís still lurking, must be utterly confused 🤣🤣🤣
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
kitenski wrote:
out of interest, what width would you put on for kids mucking around to the sides of pistes after fresh snow?? I'm away this New Year with my 18 year old and 15 year old, but fairly light and athletic and I'd be interesting in hiring them a wider set if the conditions pan out....


Wailers? Soul 7ís? Or actually probably better would be Faction 3.0ís - very popular with the park rats here. Off piste lesson 1 should be a showing of Candide in ďone of those daysĒ
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@SlipnSlide, if theyíve got a bit of camber and sidecut, even the fat skis are pretty good on piste these days, especially on a powder day when the snow is soft. Where they will struggle will be on hard pack or ice. Surprised you need a lesson after all the tips on here. Should keep you going for a month 🤣🤣🤣
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BobinCH wrote:

Also appreciate @uktrailmonster, that iím making big assumptions - mainly wrong ones it seems 😜 - and am surprised about your experience with the Atris and 90Eights. Mine (albeit with 100Eights) was the opposite, although I wasnít a huge fan of the Atris, but due to feeling less pop than some other similar skis (Blizzard Rustler 12 was my favorite that day). Fully agree that weight plays a big part in my love for the DPS Lotus. They are just so much easier to ski everywhere than the 193 Volkl Shiros they replaced. As I said before, ski technology evolves faster than you think and I think DPS are one of the ones pushing the boundaries - everyone should try the Wailer, and if you like the Wailer try and find a pair of a Lotus 124. Not cheap but worth every penny.


I've never tried the 100Eights, but they are fully rockered compared to just mildly rockered tips/tails on the 90Eight. The 90Eight is very lightweight and super nimble for its size. Also has a very nice flex pattern i.e. quite forgiving, but can hold a decent edge at speed too. For a 98 mm ski, it feels more like an 80 mm ski on piste in terms of its edge to edge speed and yet has that confidence inspiring feel of a wider platform. After skiing on them most of last season I sold my dedicated piste carvers (Movement Le Fer) as they weren't getting any more use and I actually preferred skiing the 90Eight on piste in almost all conditions (although ice is virtually non-existent in BC). I would have absolutely no reservation in recommending the 90Eight for anyone looking for a true 50/50 ski. Maybe in Europe the heavier/stiffer Mantra would be a better bet for crud-busting in difficult conditions, but in soft BC snow the 90Eight is almost perfect as a one-quiver ski. It has no quirks or obvious downsides and very intuitive to use. As a full-on powder ski it wouldn't be my first choice, but it can go anywhere without making life difficult. Very rarely last season did I feel the need for a wider more powder-oriented ski (even though I had one that I really enjoyed) and this season my experience with the latest Atris didn't make me feel any different. The DPS Wailer is a ski I would really like to try, but not so easy where I ski. I see the odd pair around on the hill and have chatted to people using them on the chair and they all seem very positive indeed. I guess it's a different and pretty unique take on the concept of an AM ski. For off-piste tight tree line skiing, my Line SFBs are still very much the benchmark as they are ultra-playful in deep snow and quite a lot of fun in soft on-piste conditions too.
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BobinCH wrote:
kitenski wrote:
out of interest, what width would you put on for kids mucking around to the sides of pistes after fresh snow?? I'm away this New Year with my 18 year old and 15 year old, but fairly light and athletic and I'd be interesting in hiring them a wider set if the conditions pan out....


Wailers? Soul 7ís? Or actually probably better would be Faction 3.0ís - very popular with the park rats here. Off piste lesson 1 should be a showing of Candide in ďone of those daysĒ


Add Line Sir Francis Bacons to that list as they are super playful and very easy to ski. The current version is 104 mm underfoot, which is a good compromise for on/off piste.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
BobinCH wrote:
@SlipnSlide, if theyíve got a bit of camber and sidecut, even the fat skis are pretty good on piste these days, especially on a powder day when the snow is soft. Where they will struggle will be on hard pack or ice. Surprised you need a lesson after all the tips on here. Should keep you going for a month 🤣🤣🤣


+1 The key is soft snow, which it should be if there is any powder around. Just don't expect them to perform like a full on slalom ski and they are fine. If you like to carve medium and large radius turns from a centred stance then I actually prefer them to shorter more piste dedicated skis. But if you go much over 100 mm they can start to load up your knees as you crank them over on edge. Depending on your fitness, agility and skill level it may or may not be an issue. Obviously you can choose to ski them more on their bases, but that won't do your on-piste technique any favours. As you appear to be looking for a true 50/50 ski I would start by looking at the 90-100 mm AM category. The Volkl 90Eight would be a safe bet, but there are plenty of very similar alternatives from the big mainstream brands like Nordica, Salomon, Head, Atomic etc. There has never been such a great selection of AM skis to choose from! Demo if you can of course.
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Woa, back up a bit here guys, not many folk can carve a slalom ski properly, let alone talking about carving on 100m+ skis!

@SlipnSlide, everything is a compromise with skis, if you are hiring then I'd be swopping based on the conditions and expecting compromises depending on what I chose.

A 65mm underfoot slalom ski will rock on icy firm pistes and generally suck in deep fresh snow (sweeping generalisation). A >110mm soft rockered off piste ski will eat up heavy powder and generally suck on firm icy pistes.

Horses for courses, and why the "all mountain" ski sells so well (but also why many snowheads have multiple sets of skis)
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

Wailers? Soul 7ís? Or actually probably better would be Faction 3.0ís - very popular with the park rats here. Off piste lesson 1 should be a showing of Candide in ďone of those daysĒ


My kids will get a pair of wailers when they raise the money to pay for their own Very Happy Very Happy

My sense on kids skis is that most of us are unlikely to be buying them a "quiver" and often their low weight (not if you have a 17 year old second row natch!) actually makes a one ski quiver more viable. Also they are likely improving their technique more rapidly than their parents so need a tool for that too. All of which means that something at the narrow end of freeride with a bit of side cut makes more sense than an out and out powder ski. For those reasons I would buy something similar but a bit narrower than all the skis you suggest. If we are talking about renting for a powder day then your suggestions look bang on.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I had a chance to try some 112 Wailers (foundation construction i believe) this season in boot deep fresh, I have to say I loved them! and seemed to flatter my skiing more that my r.108s.

Both skied fine on piste in softish snow, but I obviously can;t ski them like I do by Brahmas.
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kitenski wrote:
Woa, back up a bit here guys, not many folk can carve a slalom ski properly, let alone talking about carving on 100m+ skis!



If we stick to sub 100 mm AM skis rather than true super-wide powder skis, I would argue that some of the latest crop of AM skis can actually be more fun and less demanding to carve on-piste than full-on slalom skis. Obviously it depends on the conditions (ice is a rarity where I ski) and what radius turns you wish to be carving. If you intend to carve out slalom radius turns on an icy black piste, then obviously a race carver is the best tool for the job. But I personally have more fun carving out medium and large radius turns on perfectly groomed red pistes with wider and longer AM skis. I find them more versatile and easier to ski on all day than more highly tuned piste specific skis. Anyway I've owned both and got rid of the more racey end of my quiver in recent years. I'm actually down to a quiver of 2 this season, the narrowest at 98 mm. Only if I was skiing icy pistes regularly would I want for something narrower, which I realise is probably a lot of people.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
kitenski wrote:

Horses for courses, and why the "all mountain" ski sells so well (but also why many snowheads have multiple sets of skis)


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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