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Pin bindings & lightweight boots for lift-served skiing?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hello

I ski probably 60/40 tour/lift-served. I currently have a 1 ski quiver of White Dot R98s fitted with Dynafit Radical 2 ST pin bindings and Dynafit TLT6 boots.

I think this is a great set up for touring and for off piste stuff accessed on skins but I am wondering whether itís a Ďgood ideaí to ski on a lightweight setup such as this when smashing it in resort and when off piste via the lifts, as obviously the pin bindings and boots arenít as robust as a heavier alpine boot and binding.

I love the skis but am wondering on the benefits of a second setup of alpine boot, second pair of skis and an alpine binding verus just skiing what I have everywhere.

The other thought was to Quiver Killer the White Dots and just buy a second set of boots and bindings, but thatís a lot of holes in my skis that Iím not keen for.

Any advice or thoughts?

Many thanks in advance
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@nosiesta, personally I dislike skiing on my pin bindings (Dynafit FT 12) despite using freeride boots and skis. Much prefer the Marker Griffons on my fat skis. The pins are great on the uphill but they ski completely differently on the down and I have no confidence in them in difficult terrain. Saying that Iím not in love with the skis (Countdown 107īs). Have my eyes on the Salomon S slab Shift bindings for next year....
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@BobinCH, +1, but KingPins. They do the job... But rather than move them to my new touring skis I put my old Barons on them while waiting for the Shifts (and that's saying something given just how much more effort they are going uphill). I really struggle to pinpoint exactly what the issue is but I just ski worse on any flavour of tech binding I've tried, and just really dislike the feel. I know other people are fine with them though.

But swapping out the Dynafits for the Shift when available would probably solve the OP's needs.
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@nosiesta, Re robustness, I kind of see your point, but never had a failure or premature wear issue.
As far as skiing goes, all my skis have pin bindings and I love the way they all ski, right up to Pettitor 120mm.....
Using Scarpa Maestrales and weigh 70kg fyi
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Iíve only done 20 days with new Dynafit Beasts fitted to my old skis, but itís a direct comparison and I donít feel much, if any, difference. Overall happy to use them everywhere.
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@nosiesta, Iíve only got Tech / Pin bindings on my skis now (Beast 16, Beast 14, Radical 2, Plum Guide).

The Radical 2ís you have are a massive step forward when compared to traditional TLT bindings which donít have elasticity in the heel and the rotating toe piece. My first tech bindings were the Plum Guides, and while light and great to skin on, they feed every vibration direct to your feet/legs. On the Beastís I donít even think about being on tech bindings when lím skiing.

For those suffering an obvious difference, when switching from alpine to a modern tech binding, take a look at your delta angle, as couple of degrees can make a big difference if you are sensitive to such things.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 27-03-18 8:14; edited 1 time in total
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@nosiesta, I used to ski Dukes on my Ranger 108ís and sold them about 5 years ago in favour of Beast 16ís which I really rated but heavy and rock solid under foot. They started to jam repeatedly and despite well greasing then I started to have issues until one day in Lech in January this year I broke the release mechanism and had to buy some New model Rad 2ís in resort at great expense!

Iím glad I did in hindsight, much lighter and equally rock solid underfoot. No issues skiing fast on piste, bumps etc on any terrain. I ski 118mm Ragnaroks CLís with them as my go to ski and with Dynafit Mercury pin boots (rear twin pins, front release).

For me itís all about the down not the up, but I do like a lightweight set up.

Stick with what youíve got is my advice, Iíve no issues at all and canít imaging wanting a clunky piste binding again. Things have definitely moved on.
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Do the Dynafit Radical 2's ski better than the Radical 1's ?

The Sally shifts look like a good one binding option for someone with touring and alpine boots. If the sole length of the alpine boots is sigficantly greater than the touring boots is there a fix to accomodate the extra boot length while still keeping the boot centre mount point the same?

Will the shifts work with Dynafit TLT6's?
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@DB, I think the Radical 2ís ski better than the 1ís, but there were a number of versions of the 1ís. The later ones had elasticity at the heel, but not the rotating toe. I never skied on a early Radical 1, but my 1ís had the elastic heel. When I switched skis I went to the 2ís, and they are less harsh on piste, but as expected feel pretty much the same in powder.
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@nosiesta, I'd stick with the Rad 2s. I use them in a similar way for resort piste skiing and they work well, even running gates.

That said, I suspect that regular checks for the forward pressure and pin\boot condition are a good idea. I was chatting to a chap whose boot inserts had worn prematurely and the heal pieces my Rad2s seem to drift (I mark the screw to keep an eye on it).
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Beast 14's and Scarpa Maestrale RS for all my skiing.

I can't tell the difference between that and my old Rossi/Look 14's and Head Raptor setup.

I am a bit crap though.
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DB wrote:


Will the shifts work with Dynafit TLT6's?


No, the toe and heel lugs on the TLT6 are too short.
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PLUM race and Roxa RX1's
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Thanks for all the input.

I guess my worry is that the rigours of resort skiing and lift-served off piste will wear the pins on the bindings and the inserts on the boots quickly. It does make me wonder how much of a difference I'd notice with an alpine binding/boot on the downhill too, given that the ski is only held on by those two small pins.

Shame the S-Lab don't fit the TLTs as love the boot and they're awesome for touring.
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The upsides are you get used to skiing on your touring stuff, itís lovely and light to hump around, plus walking around is a delight.
The downside is that every element not just the bindings arenít as robust and if youíre skiing a lot will wear out.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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I now do all my skiing on White Dot R98s fitted with Dynafit Radical 2 ST and find them great on piste, very solid and carve surprisingly well. Boots are Tecnica Cochise Pro light (with powerstrap). Sometimes it's nice to think if something else may be better, if only to reassure yourself that what you have is already perfect
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I've had problems skiing dynafits (Radical 1's) inbounds, always seems to happen when I ski with other snowheads. Embarassed

First problem was when skiing with Kooky - can't to this day work out what happend maybe the binding was iced up or I wasn't properly clicked in. I picked up a bit of speed and then all of a sudden I lost a ski and hit the deck. The ski brake was bent so badly that I had to spend a few minutes unbending it at the side of the piste before skiing on. Unnerving and embarassing.

Earlier this season met up with Scarpa, Flangesax, Robin S et all and my heel piece exploded
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=3149856&highlight=dynafit#3149856

On piste at speed and in heavy offpiece conditions my alpine boots are clearly much better but just not suitable for a ski tour.
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@DB, first problem sounds like ice in yer dimples. Do you do the Dynafit Dance when you clip in? Clip your toes then pick your foot up and wave it back and forth a few times. There's a little groove on the pins and this should dig away at the ice. If it's really bad, like you've walked through a stream ( Embarassed ), then use a penknife (or the little spike on the end of Dynafit leashes put there just for this purpose) first.

The second one seems not uncommon with early Radicals. The screw that adjusts the pressure on the main pin can come undone on its own. Once, on a return from La Femma, one of our party was skinning along quite happily when someone noticed that her heel was gone. One person was sent back along our tracks and eventually found all the bits - unharmed. We put them all back together and it was fine. On another occasion, while checking her bindings one evening, I noticed that one was very loose. Same problem.

I've also had a heel pop off in a fall. This was some time ago with one of the very early Dynafits when there was only one model. It was my first experience with them so had settings very low and there wasn't enough pressure to hold the heel on. Quick lesson in how to take them apart and put them together again.
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Just personally...
I have seen/heard about too many pin binding related knee damage/broken tib/fib to want to ski on them all the time.
I have a set of Vipecs which [apparently] have the best pin lateral release. They are a pain to get into but I feel much safer skiing them.

I met a Saloman ski rep in Le Fornet last week who gave me a pretty comprehensive demo of their new Shift binding. The toe piece will convert from a pin to an alpine binding with a flick of a switch. So you can skin up with pin and down with alpine. This seems like a pretty perfect [though expensive] solution. Yes it is slightly heavier than a superlight pin but really not by much. Holding the ski/binding in my hand it felt really light. Much lighter than my old Marker F12 AT bindings.
I will definitely buy a pair next time I upgrade my touring skis..... any skis actually.

I wish my Line Sick Day Tourists could miraculously turn into my Nordica Enforcers when transitioning from the up to down but hey .... maybe I should get my butler to carry them up to the top of the mountain for me ....... Toofy Grin
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Have skied on a quiver of one for past 6 seasons

3 sets of skis - changed skis roughly every two seasons because the Welsh ski conditions have smashed the bases. Stripped the wax.
2 sets of Dynafit TLT 5 boots - first pair are now my Brecon Beacons ski boots and still going strong
2 sets of Dynafit TLT ST bindings

Most of the skiing has been done in the very forgiving Hokkaido powder but also skied plenty of European resort, sidecountry, and backcountry.

Been averaging around 60 days each of the past 6 seasons

Very happy that the equipment is both robust enough and suitable for all conditions & terrain.

188cm, 95 kg (more like 110 kg fully kitted up), set my DIN to 5
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@Mike Pow, Iím amazed you can keep your skis on at such a light setting! Iím 172cm and 80kg fully kitted up and find any less than 6 and I step out of the toe and I usually have the heels on 8 to stop them falling off mid turn or landing off a small jump!
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Gordyjh wrote:
@Mike Pow, Iím amazed you can keep your skis on at such a light setting! Iím 172cm and 80kg fully kitted up and find any less than 6 and I step out of the toe and I usually have the heels on 8 to stop them falling off mid turn or landing off a small jump!


Combo of actiflex and low flex rating of the TLT 5 boot plus 5 DIN setting keeps me very honest, off my tongues and lateral.

Small margin of error otherwise it's double eject Superman style Wink Smile

Exhibit A

https://www.instagram.com/p/BP8bO-PgjYA/?taken-by=mikethesnow


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 29-03-18 11:18; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
ski on a quiver of one, too. Dynafit radical 2s. When in resort with the family, I'm normally on kid-collection duty at lunch time and I tend to notice a benefit in being able to lug my lighter-weight gear around with me whilst shepherding children.

I probably underestimated the benefit of a proper walk-mode when chasing after excited 4 year olds... wouldn't do it in my alpine boots now!

And of course, a cracking binding for my dedicated touring trips.

Certainly no signs of increased wear so far
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This was an interesting post. All you needed to know about bindings...

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/snow-sports/best-at-bindings


I've probably done well over 40 days on the Tecton this season with a fair amount of climbing on Black Crow Atris (not the lightest of touring skis but still some 1400m days), from light effortless powder of Japan to Euro crust n crud and a lot of piste bombing in between.

And as that review says Tecton is right up there.

Like the SnowHead's Strava roadbike group maybe we should have a SnowHeads ski touring group to see how much vert we are clocking up etc etc just that it would sort of put it into perspective as to who is doing what vs advice offered rolling eyes
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Good thread.

Skiied kingpins and beast 14 for last 4 years or so with Scarpa Freedom SLs - in and out of bounds and basically without issue.

Iím always marginally more cautious skiing with pin bindings (esp avoid venturing with friends to dick around in the Snow park or do anything that might involve rotating) because of knee and tib/fin horror stories mentioned above.

However, think all that is best practice anyway if youíre interested in a long and happy life on skis.

Plus you get to look all pro and backcountry and your mates canít nick your skis... so yea, I wouldnít worry.
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Weathercam wrote:
Like the SnowHead's Strava roadbike group maybe we should have a SnowHeads ski touring group to see how much vert we are clocking up etc etc just that it would sort of put it into perspective as to who is doing what vs advice offered rolling eyes


Is that so that you can feel superior because you ski tour more than most here?
As far as I'm aware from the replies to this thread there are two guys who ski Japan all season, another who also skis on a far higher level to you or I plus a guy who started up his own ski company.
I wouldn't start a peeing contest unless you want to get wet.
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Mike Pow wrote:

188cm, 95 kg (more like 110 kg fully kitted up), set my DIN to 5


I recall you posted some fabulous pics of the Cosmiques a while back. Please tell me you didnít have your bindings set at 5 😱
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Weathercam wrote:


Like the SnowHead's Strava roadbike group maybe we should have a SnowHeads ski touring group to see how much vert we are clocking up etc etc just that it would sort of put it into perspective as to who is doing what vs advice offered rolling eyes


Downhill vert would be the more appropriate metric in this case wink
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You know it makes sense.
Not that much downhill vert on those meadows he likes skiing 😉

Need decent bindings for this 🤣
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BobinCH wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:

188cm, 95 kg (more like 110 kg fully kitted up), set my DIN to 5


I recall you posted some fabulous pics of the Cosmiques a while back. Please tell me you didnít have your bindings set at 5 😱


For a reason I can't remember I had to rent skis that day.

The narrowest ski the guy in the shop would give me once he heard our plans was the Salomon Lord.

Great ski, kept me above it a bit more than I was used to but had a ball.

Set to 6

Conditions were very amenable though. No belay in, just side stepping.

Boot top to knee powder in the couloir.
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Cosmiques on some rented Lords. Ballsy 💪
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Hey guys,

Perhaps I can add a little to this conversation and yes I am biased but this is my honest personal opinion. First off I have skied pins on piste loads and never had an issue, but I do have some heavy WTR bindings for when things get a bit nuts.

The rubbish answer is I'm afraid, it depends... pin bindings are a little more sensitive than alpine bindings but yes, if they are set up right (inserts are so important, i recommend checking they are real Dynafit inserts) and your technique is semi clean, you can really push them on the pistes. I spent a weekend doing icy GS style turns on a pair of 175 gram Superlite 2.0s and no issues at all.

So 1 key point is that the lateral release forces (not torque, that's the same) on a pin bindings heel is much lower than an alpine binding's toe (that's a reason why they are much lighter). To demo this, put on a pin binding and smack the side of the ski into the snow, it'll probably release. But we don't often recreate this when we ski because we generally always have a force coming up from the base and the toe (which is laterally stiff) will take the brunt of the force.

A little breakdown...

Superlite 2.0 has an Alu toe piece, if you have bad technique and ski hard I wouldnt suggest pushing this one hard on piste, it wont thank you for hitting ice sideways, but if you are not only skiing with power not technique and will slow up through death cookies then it's my favourite binding which i use on my 98 mm wide touring skis through moguls, Brits prefer a beefier binding though.

Radical "1", this is a really solid toe piece, I trust it completely, and the power towers (which are not just step in aids) help to keep you in when you hit ice from the side, which is a great unique point of the Dynafits. Be aware that the cheaper ST radical TURN does not have these towers, and yes the names confuse me as well.

Rotation/Radical 2 - Pretty much the same toe piece as the Radical 1 with the towers but with the added advantage of the longer, more elastic release (and stronger heel spring) which means it will absorb larger hits on the pistes. I have this on the Beast 108s and i have really pushed them in bad snow wih absolutely no issues.

Just going to cover Dynafit bindings wink

Hope this helps.
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BobinCH wrote:
Cosmiques on some rented Lords. Ballsy 💪


Beggars can't be choosers Smile
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dulcamara wrote:
......Superlite 2.0 has an Alu toe piece, if you have bad technique and ski hard I wouldnt suggest pushing this one hard on piste, it wont thank you for hitting ice sideways, but if you are not only skiing with power not technique and will slow up through death cookies then it's my favourite binding which i use on my 98 mm wide touring skis through moguls, Brits prefer a beefier binding though......

Agree re the Superlite 2.0 being superb and yes, they're a hard sell in the UK which is a shame as the market is missing out. The biggest resistance (and rightly so in many instances) is the fixed vertical release which is too high for many people. I ground a bit of the back of my U forks to lower the release but I've got a torque tester so it's easy for me to do and I'd never do it for a customer in case the strength is compromised. The simple fix is for Dynafit to offer a choice of spare U forks with lower release values which I've asked Dynafit for on a number of occasions but have never received a reply. In fact you can't even get spare U forks for the Superlite 2.0 which is just poor. The new Marker Alpinist binding out in the Autumn has a choice of three vertical release U forks which should hopefully be a wake up call to Dynafit.

My favourite set-up is a Beast 14 with QK inserts that way you can drop a pair of Superlite 2.0 heels nicely within the Beasts heel mounting pattern so a quick heel swap will drop 460g per ski for distance stuff but still retain the super bomber elastic toe. Gives zero delta (with a Vulcan/Mercury boot) for those that want it but I like a couple of mm so I put a 2mm shim under the Superlite heel. It's the future, or rather it could have been until they discontinued the Beast rolling eyes
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[quote="spyderjon"]
dulcamara wrote:

My favourite set-up is a Beast 14 with QK inserts that way you can drop a pair of Superlite 2.0 heels nicely within the Beasts heel mounting pattern so a quick heel swap will drop 460g per ski for distance stuff but still retain the super bomber elastic toe. Gives zero delta (with a Vulcan/Mercury boot) for those that want it but I like a couple of mm so I put a 2mm shim under the Superlite heel. It's the future, or rather it could have been until they discontinued the Beast rolling eyes


Great idea! I'm going to look at this for next year I think. Love the way the beasts (and my black crows atris) ski so took them over my lighter skis on long day tours- but this would resolve that and probably make the ultimate one ski quiver...
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@spyderjon, Hi Jon, the Superlite 10 has a softer fork so perhaps that might be a safer option, but yeah you are right the there is no replacement forks on the market so that info probably doesn't help. I think the main reason it is not sold separately is because swapping it out is not straight forward and open to mistakes. You have to be sure that after hammering out the holding pin that, when you reinsert it there is a point where it slides in easily, you must remember to find that point and then turn it slightly before knocking it in.

This is because the pin is intentionally scored by the housing to hold it in place. If it is just reinserted then there is a chance it will work its way free. I guess it was a risk they weren't willing to take to let every punter have a go at it and then find they are falling out.



Quote:

My favourite set-up is a Beast 14 with QK inserts that way you can drop a pair of Superlite 2.0 heels nicely within the Beasts heel mounting pattern so a quick heel swap will drop 460g per ski


Obviously for Jon this is a great idea as he can test release functions on a machine, for others, please note that if you do this the side release value of the Superlite combo will be significantly lower (about 4-5 DIN less). Also (need to check this, but would make sense) i think the channel that defines the release in the heel of the superlite is not as wide as that in the bindings designed to work with the elastic toe pieces so while elasticity may be a little better it wont be like the Radical 2 or Rotation bindings.

My personal advice would be if you are going to do that trick, take your skis, boots and bindings to Jon and ask him to test them. Then just be aware that if something goes wrong, the claims department at Dynafit may laugh at you because there are a whole bunch of off-axis and pre-loaded release tests that the elastic bindings go through that yours wont.

Sorry I know that was a boring response and I sound like im being a massive pansy.... just a couple of things to consider.
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Oh and I personally wouldn't try that with some of the newer ones from other manufacturers, from what i have seen the elasticity on the ones coming out is much lower than the Dynafits. Doesn't necessarily mean they are less safe, just that they wont like the rotating toe piece at all.
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dulcamara wrote:
....... note that if you do this the side release value of the Superlite combo will be significantly lower (about 4-5 DIN less). Also (need to check this, but would make sense) i think the channel that defines the release in the heel of the superlite is not as wide as that in the bindings designed to work with the elastic toe pieces so while elasticity may be a little better it wont be like the Radical 2 or Rotation bindings.......

My lateral release force droped about 50-55Nm which at my bsl is nearly a couple of din. Couldn't see/measure any difference in the rotational elasticity before the heel 'let go'.

I see that the new for 18/19 ST Rotation 7 is mating the rotary toe with the old Rad (1) ST heel with the same 5.5mm boot/heel gap as the Superlite 2.0. I haven't got a spares list yet but my bet is that the part number for the heel is unchanged ergo a rotary toe is still good to go with a heel that has 5.5mm gap wink
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Usually the toe generates about DIN 4, which is lost on the rotating toe pieces and so the rear release is strengthened. But like i say, ill check.
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Seems like most of what can be said has been said but just to add my 2p, I currently run kingpins on Candide 3s as my one quiver ski. After the last couple of trips that haven't involved masses of touring, I'm considering getting quiver killers set up for a standard alpine binding as I've been having some pre release issues that aren't particularly confidence inspiring. Now I'm not sure if I've buggered up the binding or if it's just a trait of a binding that has all the release movement in just the heel but they've come off a few times doing nothing particularly strenuous. A couple of cases where doing a small jump on to firm off camber snow was enough for the kingpins to release where I'm pretty confident a normal binding would not have done. Generally they ski no differently (as far as I can tell anyway) to a normal alpine binding but having that worry in the back of your mind that they may just pop off for not much reason does make you think twice about things that wouldn't be an issue with an alpine binding. Not particularly fun.
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