I agree with most, yes you are the culpable party unfortunately as he is further down the slope and moving in a fairly predictable manner. The correct move would be to turn left and behind him.... as the camera can see him, it means you should have been aware of him too. Well done for posting as it will raise awareness to others. I nearly caused a similar crash when a lady cut across me this year but I was going quickly and had to quickly turn behind her...in hindsight I should have seen that her turns would take her across my intended path.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Legend +2
Whether you have the right of way or not, it still hurts when there is a collision.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
IMO it's not the OP's 'fault' per se, but the OP could have done more to prevent the crash.
I think the tell-tale part of the video is at 00:02 where you look to your left and you see him. As soon as you saw him, and recognised that you were going to go past him, you should have been keeping tabs on his location throughout the pass.
With regards to the 'downhill skier' rule... it's not simply a case of who is downhill of who at time of impact. The point is more that at the start of the pass, he was downhill of you... so throughout the pass you are responsible for ensuring it's done safely. At the point when he hit you, he hit the back of your skis so yes technically at the moment of impact you were indeed the downhill skier!! But like I said it doesn't work that way and IMO people do try to take the 'downhill skier' rule a bit too literally sometimes.
I think clearly the OP is taking a responsible mature stance about this but the lesson to learn is that just because you might ski a predictable, consistent line; it doesn't mean others will too. Some people really do ski all over the shop because they suck, but remember also that at any time, the person in front of you might be a good skier and still have to go wide to avoid an obstacle, or a fallen person, or a lump of ice... which you can't see because you're 50ft behind them.
Just take it as a lesson... people are not predictable or consistent (that's why man invented machines... well that and being lazy) and when passing somebody, remember to keep them in your vision until you're properly past them.
As I said in another thread recently... there are rules for downhill skiers, rules for rejoining pistes... but the rules is not a physical barrier that will stop you getting hurt. The only thing which will stop you getting hurt is you. You have to ski with an attitude of proactively avoiding incidents... not just skiing within the rules.
IMO it's not the OP's 'fault' per se, but the OP could have done more to prevent the crash.
+1
Just my 2p's worth.. Seems the rules are not quite on OP's side, alas the other skier doesn't seem unpredictable from the clip, but he does seem to come out of nowhere. You follow a fairly straight line (albeit moving to the left), but he comes at you like a torpedo from the opposite side of the piste. An empty piste. More like the type of collision you'd expect on a busy piste trying to avoid others.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
like moths to a flame.
how two people alone on a piste can hit each other is a mystery to me.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I would echo the comments that you don't seem to look around at all, neither when you set off nor when skiing. Being more aware of who is around you and what they are doing will be beneficial in stopping these "slightly in the wrong" style collisions.
After all it is free
After all it is free
100% the OPs fault. I'm amazed there's any equivocation.
The other skier holds a reasonably consistent line, but even if he didn't, the FIS rules are quite clear that the uphill skier has to give enough space for any deliberate or inadvertent manoeuvre. The OP didn't make any adjustment to accommodate him at all, which is quite curious; both sight and sound should have alerted him to the developing situation.
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Hi @CallumDA, you took him out I'm afraid, the collision happened 6 seconds after your started off without looking around, on a fairly empty piste, so its a reminder of how quickly things can go wrong and it could have been worse for both of you.
Always check before moving off, and give the downhill skier plenty of room to make his / her turn.
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Sorry @CallumDA I think you should have been more aware of the state of the other skier.
I would like to think that I could have avoided that one.
I have a feeling that the other skier is not that proficient and has little confidence.
The slope doesen't look very steep, but that could just be the camera.
I must own up to having a similar crash, when the guy in front made a very sudden turn to the left after chasing down the main fall line for several minutes. He just didn't imagine that anyone could have been on so fast on his tail.
I cracked a couple of his ribs and I was pretty beaten up as well.
@CallumDA, did we once meet in Sorrento ?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
DrLawn wrote:
@CallumDA, did we once meet in Sorrento ?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@DrLawn, I've never been to Sorrento so must be someone else!
Thanks again for all the feedback. I just want to add that I do try to be as careful as possible. I didn't look over in the first place because I heard or saw the other skier, I looked over just to check. When I saw him I just made the wrong split-second judgement assuming that he was well on his way and I was still going slower than him. Literally two seconds later he is back in my field of vision and I'm starting to avoid him.
Next time I'll back off a bit and keep the other skier in my field of vision for a bit longer.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Legend. wrote:
Really nice to see someone actually questioning themselves rather than finger pointing at the time when they were wronged. Quite refreshing, so good job Callum.
Just need to be a little more observant is all, keep looking around. It is an accident and not due to massive negligence of either party, but yeah as the uphill skiier you should have kept out of his path which does look quite hard to predict so even more caution required.
Spot on post. I agree that to revisit where there has been a problem is very healthy.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've looked again at This video, and the skier looks like he is going to make a turn rather than continue with the travers ...
the pole is positioned as though he is just about to turn ... but it just dosen't happen..
I think we have all got to be on our guard no matter if we are up or down hill.
I saw a video on here the other day someone had taken racing down a piste I think it was in Garmisch ...
It scared the nuts off me watching the video, I thought he's bound to crash into one of these people.
He was perhaps in full control, but you never know which way that other skier is going to Jink.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Let's face it, neither party were demonstrating any spatial awareness or forward thinking. The curse of many helmeted/goggled people in my experience. And worse when playing tunes or talking to the office.
Both had time to take avoiding action.
Uphill skier (CallumDA) at fault in the eyes of the law because courts do go by the FIS Rules so, had it been a more serious outcome, he would have been guilty m'lud.
And that was a wide, empty piste - gawd 'elp us. I imagine people on this forum are most likely to know the rules but out there it's a lottery.
But respect for posting it and asking though, not many would be brave enough.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@CallumDA, I sort of have some empathy as a few years back I had a similar collision which I too caught on Cam and have posted on here but I think we differ in that you actually clocked the skier and knew he was there so you should have been aware, and you were both in control.
In my defense even though I was the uphill skier he came out of line of sight skiing uphill into me as he was out of control and presumably trying to slow down.
Really nice to see someone actually questioning themselves rather than finger pointing at the time when they were wronged. Quite refreshing, so good job Callum.
+1 Even if it has made a least a few of us re-think, it can only be a good thing
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hi @CallumDA .. that's OK the skiing is crap in Sorrento anyway ...
It must have been another Callum Snowhead ...
Its odd how you meet people splashing away in a pool in +30C and you end up talking about ski holidays.
We have to learn from our mistakes .. being contrite helps.
If it's about "one of us" then all of a sudden everyone are so into well it's hard to tell, probably it's not your fault, that guy had enough of time to change his direction etc. If someone would posted this video which would be recorded by someone not member of this forum, everyone would jump on "idiot who goes straight down".
But to original question. Yes it's your and only your fault if we go by the rules. There's no doubt, there's no "it's hard to tell". It's simple. You came from top, you hit skier infront of you who was lower then you. End of discussion.
On the other side, I hate people who need whole damn course for themself, so if we forget the rules, I would say that guy traversing course from one edge to the other without taking care of anything, deserves what he got.
But either way, you could have avoid this. You had enough space to react on this, and you could turn away.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 26-02-18 14:48; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
eddiethebus wrote:
like moths to a flame.
how two people alone on a piste can hit each other is a mystery to me.
Far from a mystery.
it’s rare one has an empty piste all to oneself. It’s only right to make use of all of it when one has the opportunity!
The problem arise when 2 skier of different speed happens to need to pass one another.
I was once taken out on an “empty” piste just like that. The bloke who knocked me over (actually he hit my binding and separated me from one of my skis) admitted to me afterward he misjudged how wide my turns were because he didn’t think I would use up nearly the whole width of the piste, which was precisely what I was doing: enjoying a rare moment of having the piste “all to myself”! Only that I wasn’t alone Not when this second bloke came along.
After all it is free
After all it is free
It would be interesting if OP's reactions would be different if the other skier was a snowboarder who is much more likely to traverse, more unpredictable and more likely too be on blind side.
Indeed it would be equally interesting if the comments/opinions on this thread would be different if it was a snowboarder traversing rather than a skier in the first video.
Its not black and white but the guy with the bloody nose had good reason to be aggrieved.
This vid probably isn't exact example but it's similar to something I have noticed - some folk who ski short predictable arcs often don't allow for someone below them who is 'carving' big wide arcs (skier or boarder) and then get p**d that the downhill skier who may have originally been on other side of the piste cut their line.
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dozofoz wrote:
It would be interesting if OP's reactions would be different if the other skier was a snowboarder who is much more likely to traverse, more unpredictable and more likely too be on blind side.
Indeed it would be equally interesting if the comments/opinions on this thread would be different if it was a snowboarder traversing rather than a skier in the first video.
Its not black and white but the guy with the bloody nose had good reason to be aggrieved.
This vid probably isn't exact example but it's similar to something I have noticed - some folk who ski short predictable arcs often don't allow for someone below them who is 'carving' big wide arcs (skier or boarder) and then get p**d that the downhill skier who may have originally been on other side of the piste cut their line.
OP had tunnel vision. He clocked the other guy & never looked at him again until he hit him.
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I agree with the majority.
As an aside, at a famous crossing point in Tignes when I had to do a café stop as the downhill skier the French lady invoked 'priorite a droite' (the French traffic rule in some villages where the car on the right has priority even if it is not the main route). A heated discussion followed re the rules!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Mr.Egg, yeah you are probably correct, watching it again, it is pretty B&W - OP didn't seem consider other skiers on piste or at least didn't consider their unpredictability. My point was about carvers traversing the piste but its equally applicable to beginners I guess.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
primoz wrote:
If it's about "one of us" then all of a sudden everyone are so into well it's hard to tell, probably it's not your fault, that guy had enough of time to change his direction etc.
Up to your post 27 people said it was Callum at fault; even if some were sympathetic about avoiding traversing skiers.
6 said the other guy (for traversing across from nowhere) and 4 were not sure (due to the camera angle etc).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Got to agree with @primoz and @davidof's other 27 people that the OP is at fault (as the uphill and overtaking skier).
Don't think @CallumDA should lose that much sleep over it though, it certainly wasn't reckless or stupid behaviour that caused it, maybe just a smidge too little cautiousness.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Agree with @dp too that there is a lot more to analysing who's to blame (if anyone) in an accident than just who's 'uphill' at any given split second.
For me I view the 'uphill' skier as being the one who's overtaking or generally travelling faster. Ergo if I'm having a ball practicing carved (after a fashion) piste wide turns at mach10 then I'm mindful of approaching (but actually slower travelling) skiers coming more directly down the fall line from above me. The person coming down wants to 'get past' me more than they want to 'overtake' me. My desire to use the width of the piste is creating a situation not dissimilar to two pistes merging or crossing, where everyone needs to be aware and take some of the responsibility for collision avoidance.
Also as a more experienced skier I reckon I've got more responsibility for collision avoidance than a novice. Even putting aside the fact that more days on snow probably means I'll be the overtaking skier, surely the greater experience means I have a better chance of predicting a possible collision scenario, and the greater skills to leverage in order to avoid it. So If I can do more about it I then I have more responsibility to do just that and avoid it.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Tend to agree with MidgetBiker about the whole speed vs trajectory thing.
FIS (2016) makes no mention of an uphill skier - curious as to why people think uphill = guilty ?
FIS mentions overtaking in the context of skiers travelling in the same direction.
These skiers are not travelling in the same direction, one is going pretty much down the fall-line, the other pretty much across the slope.
FIS rules 1,2,3 and 5 are probably more relevant in this situation.
That being said once the OP was aware of the other skier, then the OP should have taken reasonable measures to avoid the collision, which does not appear to have been the case, and the OP seems to have set off without checking uphill and downhill, so put me with the other 27 in the Kangaroo court.
Fair play to the OP for posting this and promoting discussion - be careful out there.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
Agree with @dp too that there is a lot more to analysing who's to blame (if anyone) in an accident than just who's 'uphill' at any given split second.
For me I view the 'uphill' skier as being the one who's overtaking or generally travelling faster. Ergo if I'm having a ball practicing carved (after a fashion) piste wide turns at mach10 then I'm mindful of approaching (but actually slower travelling) skiers coming more directly down the fall line from above me. The person coming down wants to 'get past' me more than they want to 'overtake' me. My desire to use the width of the piste is creating a situation not dissimilar to two pistes merging or crossing, where everyone needs to be aware and take some of the responsibility for collision avoidance.
Also as a more experienced skier I reckon I've got more responsibility for collision avoidance than a novice. Even putting aside the fact that more days on snow probably means I'll be the overtaking skier, surely the greater experience means I have a better chance of predicting a possible collision scenario, and the greater skills to leverage in order to avoid it. So If I can do more about it I then I have more responsibility to do just that and avoid it.
_________________
good post - often means you need to put in some shoulder checks to be alert to what is heading down the fall line above you
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
FIS (2016) makes no mention of an uphill skier - curious as to why people think uphill = guilty ?
I would guess it's rule 3.
3. Choice of route
A skier or snowboarder coming from behind must choose his route in such
a way that he does not endanger skiers or snowboarders ahead.
In pretty much all cases 'behind' will mean uphill since we tend to ski downhill (with a few exceptions where it could get more complicated)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@zikomo, Hardly 'locked into a turn' as he is just starting to initiate a pole plant to start his next turn moments before the collision.
Some responses talk about "wanting to pass", "making the pass". I'd barely picked up much speed when I looked over. I was absolutely not expecting, or intending to pass. The two things I knew were that the other guy already had enough speed to overtake me and was already in front of me.
I assumed that the other guy would be well ahead of me when I looked over just two seconds later. I know next time I'm in the same situation I'll just slow down but we have to make split second decisions all the time out there and I hope the answer isn't always "slow down to be sure". Should we always slow down when someone passes us just in case they start traversing the piste sharply almost immediately after they pass?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 26-02-18 17:09; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
dp wrote:
there are rules for downhill skiers, rules for rejoining pistes... but the rules is not a physical barrier that will stop you getting hurt. The only thing which will stop you getting hurt is you. You have to ski with an attitude of proactively avoiding incidents... not just skiing within the rules.
+1
Too many people are too stuck up with rules!
It's much better to AVOID collisions than being within the rules and injured.
That, I hope is the goal of the OP posting the video: what he should have done differently in a situation like that to avoid the collision.
We do sometimes let our guard down when the piste is empty. And with the greater speed we typically go when the piste is empty, there's actually a bigger risk of high speed collision.
In this case, the OP is the only one who has view of the other skier, it's really to his own benefit that he keep track of where the other skier was and the direction he was heading so he can react properly. There're also line choices he could use to REDUCE the chance of collision. Those would help in the future for his own enjoyment.
Definitely a positive for asking the question. I think some of the posters are being a bit harsh on you though.
I think it’s clearly a 50/50 in terms of blame according to the rules. At the time the collision happened you were clearly parallel as neither of you was the downhill skier and the collision was a side to side impact.
As such, provided you gave him space, which you did, whilst he was the downhill skier once you are parallel the onus is then on both of you to be aware of surroundings and give each other space.
Now this is based on my viewing of the video, of course, and angles are hard to judge but I think these are the pertinent facts.
So, if it’s a 50/50 you are both at fault for failing to observe and give each other space. He’s clearly not looking since the piste probably WAS clear last time he looked and set his line for the traverse and you didn’t see that his line would impact yours in time and take avoiding action.
The lesson I’d pick out of it - partly since I’ve nearly had the same accident a couple of times - is not an FIS rule one but a common sense one. Don’t share equal priority on a slope unless the other skier is clearly observant and capable of skiing the fall line. Anyone traversing needs to be given a lot of space AND you should expect them to be unpredictable. They may look as if they are about to turn but then not do so because they hit a bump or catch an edge at the start of the turn - meaning they continue into the space you were planning to use to get past !
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@CallumDA,
If people are carving big turns then they can cross the piste at high speed, even coming back up the hill. This is a natural part of advanced skiing and you should always be alert to the possibility that a fast moving skier is skiing that kind of line. It is not what I would describe as a traverse but that is a bit somantic.
Quote:
Should we always slow down when someone passes us just in case they start straversing the piste sharply almost immediately after they pass?
I don't think you necessarily need to slow down, you do need to think about whether there is a collision point ahead if the skier continues with their carved arc and whether you need to take evasive action.
@midgetbiker's post makes the additional point that if you are carving big arcs it also makes sense for you to be cognisant of these collision risks but that doesn't alter the fact that the prime responsibility lies with the skier behind (generally uphill).
After all it is free
After all it is free
I'm not going to pass judgement. All I will say, is that if you get "T-Boned" while tracking down one side of the Piste (making predictable turns), it is not unnatural to feel that you were in the right (or at least, not in the wrong)....even if it may not be the case (and I'm still not allocating blame).
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 26-02-18 18:08; edited 1 time in total
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Blackblade wrote:
... I think it’s clearly a 50/50 in terms of blame according to the rules. At the time the collision happened you were clearly parallel as neither of you was the downhill skier and the collision was a side to side impact.
As such, provided you gave him space, which you did, whilst he was the downhill skier once you are parallel the onus is then on both of you to be aware of surroundings and give each other space.....
This can't be right. It is reasonable to expect skiers to check a 180 degree downhill arc of vision; but they don't have to check uphill, although more prudent skiers may do so. The other skier was initially downhill, so may not even have known the OP was approaching. The OP knows that the downhill skier is there, so has to be 100% responsible for avoiding a collision.
jedster wrote:
If people are carving big turns then they can cross the piste at high speed, even coming back up the hill. This is a natural part of advanced skiing and you should always be alert to the possibility that a fast moving skier is skiing that kind of line.
Although anyone causing a collision because they are going "uphill" is likely to be at fault - FIS Rule 5.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
ecureuil wrote:
This can't be right. It is reasonable to expect skiers to check a 180 degree downhill arc of vision; but they don't have to check uphill, although more prudent skiers may do so. The other skier was initially downhill, so may not even have known the OP was approaching. The OP knows that the downhill skier is there, so has to be 100% responsible for avoiding a collision. .
No, it should be 180 degree in the direction of travel!
So if the skier is traversing across the piste, "uphill" is part of that 180 degree!
BTW, that also applies for skier carving big arcs.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Not when this second bloke came along.
