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Which skis for BASI level 1 and 2?

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Poster: A snowHead
skimottaret wrote:
@Little Martin, good effort chipping in on a thread while on an exam, bon chance !!


Hear hear! Thanks everyone for the input. I'll let you know how I get on
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Little Martin, good luck, by now I hope you have a handle if you are pass/fail!

For 166cm length what weight/height are you?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Little Martin, good luck, hope it's going well.
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Passed my level 2!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@kitenski, 165cm about 70kg
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@edited


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 10-03-18 15:53; edited 1 time in total
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Little Martin wrote:
Passed my level 2!

Congratulatons!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Little Martin, nice one Cool Cool Cool You have made great progress since I first saw you ski, Very good work getting your L2 so soon after starting your pro training ! (hope our Instructor FastTrack course back in 2015 helped ) snowHead snowHead
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Little Martin wrote:
Passed my level 2!


Fantastic, well done, enjoy tonight!!
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@Little Martin, Well done!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Just for info, today I bought some Dalbello Lupo AT 120s, and Dynastar Speedzones 12 in 174. It's my birthday next week, or at least, that's my excuse.

Now, about that BASI thing...
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret wrote:
@Little Martin, nice one Cool Cool Cool You have made great progress since I first saw you ski, Very good work getting your L2 so soon after starting your pro training ! (hope our Instructor FastTrack course back in 2015 helped ) snowHead snowHead


Thanks, yes I remember the fast track, definitely helped back for my L1.

I shamefully admit I didn't prepare much for the L2, I definitely could have done with some short turn work prior to the course. Still just over 4 years (3rd Feb 2014!) since putting skis on for the first time, apparently I'm still doing well Wink

I'm now considering if L3 is doable, both time and commitments (thanks to Mrs LM for letting me do my L2 at short notice) probably won't let me get it done in any sensible time frame, and give me the chance to train properly.

(sorry for hijacking the thread...)
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've just noticed that BASI have added some reviews of skis from the forthcoming 2018/19 ranges they consider suitable to their website..
https://www.basi.org.uk/BASI/Home_Page_News/The_best_skis_for_Level_1_and_2_courses.aspx

Interesting that the video above suggests that the speedzone 14 would also be suitable for L3, something he doesn't say of any of the other skis reviewed.

On a personal level I can confirm that the speedzone 14 was an excellent choice for passing L2 Very Happy Our trainer was on the Speedzone 16.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
TUbaski, Good review by BASI on the skis, thanks for sharing.. Dynastar gets the nod for L3 duties as well which says something doesnt it Wink

Great result on your L2 pass, musta been the skis Toofy Grin
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Update on progress.

The boots were great, even though the BASI trainer looked at the rocker soles and pin inserts askance. He needn't have worried, they were both stiff and responsive. The skis were also great, although short turns in the confined space of a snowdome might have been easier on a slightly shorter ski. I'm consoling myself with the fact that the longer size should be more suited to level 2 in the Alps Smile
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Chamcham, Well done!
I think you'll find the 12's perfect for your L2. I'd agree that the 174 with its 15m radius is a little bigger than ideal for the fridge,
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Tubaski, Thanks. Looking forward to the next step.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Chamcham, yeh I did a refresher indoor and my turn radius was noticeably different then those on short slalom skis. The trainer acknowledged the fact and was fine about it.
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@kitenski, It's interesting that a certain amount of leeway is given. Was that a level 1 or 2 refresher course? I get the impression there's less leeway the further up the scale you go.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Chamcham, L2 refresher, I still was doing the task to the required standard, which is the important bit!
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@Chamcham, Interesting you say that... looking at the PIAs for level 3/4 (shorts) It says... "Piste focussed skis that are well serviced, 13 – 25m" and "Correct approach to account for equipment and snow conditions e.g. bullet ice aim for precision and less speed, GS skis make turns with greater vertical distance, SL skis more towards slalom end of the spectrum". (emphasis mine) So in theory they should still make allowances.
I'd be interested to know whether that is reflected in reality, but my guess is the 'less leeway' would be in selecting inappropriate equipment in the first place (e.g. wide powder skis). There was a lad on my L2 that did it on a touring setup, and despite some jokey comments from the trainer about having battleships strapped to his feet there was no suggestion he should change (he was skiing them better than most of the rest of us were skiing our piste skis) - I think it was suggested to him that it wouldn't be appropriate to turn up to a L3 tech on them though...

@kitenski, are the refreshers/ CPDs assessed? I thought not.
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I'd like to butt in (Sorry) to correct what the trainer said in that presentation. BASI Skis for L1 and L2 (Well done to @Tubaski and whoever else found that on the marvelous BASI website).

Why Correct this particular BASI Trainer? Because He talks about "Turn Radius" of a ski.
This is BASI talking down to us poor mortals to make it "simpler".
(Beware when they do this).
However:
Skis do not have a "Turn Radius"! What he's really talking about is the fixed "Sidecut radius", that is built-in to the design of the edge.
You can correctly refer to this as the Ski's Radius.
But calling this the "Turn Radius" is misleading, and makes many people think that this is the only radius the ski will carve.

In a beginner "parkNride" single-diameter semicircular arc carved turn, the maximum radius you can expect the ski to carve is one that is approximately equal to the Sidecut Radius.

But You'll fail Piste Performance if you don't (BASI-Speak) "Get Something Out Of The Turn" / "Work The Ski".
This means: never park the ski on an edge-angle and ride it round on a single semicircle of constant radius.

The actual instantaneous carve Turn Radius that results at any point in the turn (when you carve a turn) is a function of the amount of edge-angle applied at any point.
The edge-angle applied in a skillful turn should never rest constant. The more the angle: The tighter the radius of the carved track.
(There are other threads that discuss this, but the radius of the bend on the ski is approximately Rbend= Rsidecut * Cosine(Edge angle)., and that bend should always be changing.

Why does this matter?
It affects the choice of ski.
A Slalom SideCut Radius is about 11m. As soon as you touch the edge - Whoosh, you get grip and you are in to the turn. It's all over too quickly.
Beginner/ Intermediates love them because they parkNride so well.

However:
A "Cheater" Giant Slalom ski with a Sidecut Radius of 18 to 23 metres, allows much more control of grip at the top of the turn, with the wonderful control of turn-shape that this gives you. (They are called "Cheater GS" because full-on 30m GS Competition skis are too much to handle!).

The longer SideCut Radius of the GS Ski allows you to fix the edge into the ice at the top of the turn in the Build phase, with minimal pressure applied, without much turning occurring while you are getting an amazing edge-grip.
Only then, as you wind-on the angle faster and faster in the Work Phase, you will grip a tightening arc of an ellipse all the way to the tightest part of the turn at the flow-line. Then: Once you have established your new direction, you get off the outside edge and flatten the skis to Release forward speed into the new turn.

You do that because in a skillful turn, you don't want to get Edge-Trapped which is what happens if you hold on to the outside edge after the flow-line. This results in the traverse of shame whilst you have to slow-down in the fight to release the old trapped turn.

All that is hard enough to do on a GS ski, but it's too much to expect to be able to achieve on a slalom-cut ski that whips you into a tight turn straight away.
Getting this early grip and resultant skidless carve high up in the turn is the mark of the expert. On the contrary, you'll see most skiers not hooking up the carve until the flowline. The very point where you should be releasing!

Remember that the biggest radius you can carve is a close approximation to the ski's SideCut Radius. The smallest radius you can carve is down to you, but I've seen tracks tightening to a minimum of about 2m made by a GS skier on 27m skis .


Now, a BASI Trainer in an exam won't tell you about all that detail. The trainer will insist on talking about A (single) radius of turn (long or short). Once you know, you'll be able to interpret what the Trainer is on about.
You'll know that all turns are finessed: from an establishment of grip at the top, to a tightest part at the flow-line, back to a larger radius for the crossover.
As you progress to L3, the Trainer won't go into much detail on the "Input" side i.e. steering elements.
At L3-L4 It's all about an "Output" requirement i.e. corridor-width, speed and turn-size.

I would advise not mentioning this during an exam. The trainer generally likes to briskly be about their business and doesn't like people asking challenging questions about accuracy.
If you are asked to perform a parkNride turn, just say "Coming Up" and try your best!

BASI may well issue offpiste skis for the variables and steeps (Check this). So don't worry about taking your fatties to an assessment course. Take piste skis and ensure they are well sharpened and waxed every day.

@ Little Martin: Well done on your progress so far, and greetings to @skimottaret!


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 28-08-18 10:15; edited 1 time in total
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@SkiPresto, surely, for values of carve=0 the maximum radius a ski will carve is infinite (a straight line) and any value from there down to the tightest the skier can manage by combination of edge angle and pressure.

Your - not unreasonable formula - ignores the torsional flex on the ski and is only (IMO) valid for the most rigid elements underfoot (and assumes perfect edge hold).

While I agree that a "cheater" ski would be a good choice, I don't recall my Nordica Dobermann SL-Rs (RD slaloms) ever letting me park'n'ride Shocked - typically lack of positive control resulted in a rapid unintentional dismount!! Twisted Evil
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Hi @under a new name.
I agree with you: In the limits, the simple approximation will become arguable.
One could argue that if the angle of inclination is zero, then no carving is occurring, as the edge will not be engaged.

Is someone who is skiing on Carving skis always actually carving effectively? The answer is "No, hardly ever"!


The only reason I included the formula for the approximate output radius was to give the relationship between edge angle and the bend in the ski that results.
Torsional flex undoubtedly occurs, and may or may not have some effect, but I'm describing an approximation to establish an inverse relationship between output radius of bend and the angle of tilt.

I do find that people insist on a level of precision that is far too many decimal places more than is required to show the principle.
Many take the approximation too literally. The simple formula only claims to approximate to the bending of a beam. That's quite a way from how that bent ski behaves on various snow conditions.
The principle is that:
1) The SideCut Radius of a ski is invariant and cannot vary. It is definitely not the "Turning Radius".
2) The Radius of the turn (Turning Radius) is an output that is totally variable, and is a function of the amount of edge angle applied by the skier.
The two should not (Except in the United States of America, where strangeness seems to abound) be seen as the same thing!

Many people, even at the top in BASI simply cannot see the problem in incorrectly referring to a ski's SideCut Radius as its "Turning Radius". (The ski has an infinity of different bend radii upon which to turn).
I see it as a fundamental to our concept of how a ski turns. Some of them see it as something we don't need to worry our pretty little heads about. It is referred to only obliquely, and in coded terms. This is much easier for them to avoid arguments.
To some of them, the SideCut is semicircular. Ergo: You make semicircular turns of r=Rsc. QED. Any questions No Questions Thank you very much!

Footnote:
Obviously, the simple (two-point suspension) model breaks down if the ski is weighted preferentially on the tip or the tail so that a cantilever (Single point of suspension) occurs. This dramatically reduces the carve-turn radius that is possible to make.
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@SkiPresto,
Quote:

I see it as a fundamental to our concept of how a ski turns.


Absolutely. When I was hosting, clients used to ask either "how does a ski turn" or "what do you mean by "letting the skis do the work"?" (being in the days of old school skis) - and I'd tear curves of a beer mat or whatever to shape )( and use that as a crude model.

Quote:

a level of precision that is far too many decimal places more than is required


This, or indeed a level of precision beyond the level that can actually be measured...

Quote:

Footnote:
the simple (two-point suspension) model breaks down if the ski is weighted preferentially on the tip or the tail so that ... reduces the carve-turn radius that is possible to make


?? explaining the benefit of typically moving centre of mass from tip to tail through the turn ?
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Yes, indeed. Look for images of GS racers at the end of the turn. Fresh air under the tips.
Here's an image of Pinturault last season.

At that moment, he's about to engage the uphill edge of his old inside ski, then roll them both over through the flats and hook up into the new turn.
The end of the last turn, on his 30m Rsidecut skis, has been tightened by what I explain using a school ruler hanging over the desk to illustrate the cantilever, or single-point of suspension.

It's carving, but only off the tails, meaning the radius of the output is unlimited by the fore-part of the ski.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
To test this, I bought a new pair of season 2016-2017 35m R Sidecut, L=195 skis from a fellow who was leaving the British GS Team to take up Skier-Cross. They are lovely to ski on when there's nobody else about. You definitely have to ski them old-school: fore-middle-aft.

They carve beautifully, and are soft enough to bend at sensible speeds. I could use them for Masters SG skis.


OK, Back to BASI Exams! The principle is the same throughout.
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@SkiPresto, I have a lovely pair of 191 Rossi “numbered” GSs. A truly lovely ski but they do need a bit of “clear air”...

A bit trickier and more demanding oddly than my 203 SGs.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Tubaski wrote:
On a personal level I can confirm that the speedzone 14 was an excellent choice for passing L2 Very Happy Our trainer was on the Speedzone 16.


I may be being a little dim, but there doesn't appear to be a Speedzone 16 on the Dynastar website, I can see the Speedzone 14 Pro but no 16?
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@galpinos, its been rebranded as the SpeedMaster SL which makes more sense as it sits better in the Master series of skis which are all detuned race skis. The 16 was/is a soft slalom ski and 67 underfoot IIRC whereas all the other Speedzone skis have a bigger sidecut radius and are wider underfoot.

http://www.insideoutskiing.com/resources/cat_dynastar_1819_GB.pdf
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