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Snokart luggage and British Airways attitude

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
For anyone with either the Kart 6 or Kart 3 from Snokart (the ones that attach together so should count as one piece of checked luggage provided it's all within size and weight limits), I had quite the unpleasant experience with BA staff at Venice Marco Polo airport. The two check-in staff for BA insisted that I had to separate the pieces and pay extra checked luggage charges. When I asked when this policy had changed, I was informed that this had always been the policy. I responded that I had used this luggage with BA previously on other flights to go skiing to different countries and had never had a problem.

I was then informed that I had never done this from Venice. I pointed out that I had done this same trip last year at around this time of year and had flown from Venice Marco Polo and not been forced to separate my luggage into multiple pieces. I asked them to check my frequent traveller history as this lists all my flights. I was politely informed that madame (apparently I'm now a madame) was quite mistaken about this as this only gives details of points. Also, madame was mistaken about travelling with her Snokart luggage from Venice Marco Polo previously. Both staff also clarified that they were not calling me a liar and did not consider me to be a liar. So glad to have cleared that up.

Anyway, if you've got the Kart 6 or Kart 3, I suggest getting confirmation in writing before travelling that the airline will accept them as designed to only count as one piece of checked luggage. Or ditch the Kart 6/Kart 3.
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Some British Airways staff do seem to be a bit up their own jacksie about being superior human beings but I'd have thought that Venice was an out station and you were probably dealing with Servisair or similar. Unless you've got high exec club status its probably not worth the effort taking it further but it seems to me the staff were outside their authority. Fair enough if you'd taped 2 bags together but not if they are an integrated piece. What next? insist people don't use the expansion gusset on their wheelies etc?
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Worth a tweet, BA are responsive on twitter and at least youíll get a definitive answer on their stance going forward.
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BA...

BryanAir
no idea who Bryan is though
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@Dave of the Marmottes, yes, I was surprised by the attitude as I've never been treated like that by BA staff before. You're probably correct that they were something else like Servisair as I did think the uniform looked different.

@vjmehra, thanks for the suggestion. Guess I'd better get twitter account! Wink


@Mr.Egg, what we need is snowHead Airways. Hey @admin..... Laughing
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snow name wrote:

@Mr.Egg, what we need is snowHead Airways. Hey @admin..... Laughing


Really? Flights scheduled when he gets round to it, every passenger trying to take 2 tonnes of skis and teabags/bacon/smelly candles, emotional support snakes, 30 backpacks/iPads left on every plane, people turning up the wrong day for flights and the pilots and engineers trying to argue they don't want us in the EU.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, good point and well made. Although I never pack teabags or bacon but I admit to taking ptex candles and they may well be smelly.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
emotional support snakes

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So back to this! I'm going to be honest and say first of all, 50 euros additional baggage charge doesn't exactly break the bank. But that's 50 euros I could spend in Spyderjon's shop...! However, the fact that both British Airways check in staff lied to me about their baggage policy pissed me off mightily so I pursued this with BA's incompetent customer relations.

I sent several detailed emails via BA's online webform explaining the issue and the fact that Snokart luggage is designed to be zipped together. I sent links to the exact luggage I use. I pointed out in writing several times that the published BA policy does not state anywhere that it will not accept checked luggage that is zipped together.

The first person I dealt with pretty much copy and pasted a standard response and said that additional baggage charges must be paid when you have more than one piece of checked luggage. After a couple of such messages, I asked that my complaint be escalated to someone more senior than her who was capable of reading and understanding what I had written.

The second agent - as bad as the first. Also he thought it was ok to lie to me in writing and say that due to data protection laws blah blah blah. You're telling me the UK's data protection laws extend to cover staff in Venice who are unlikely to be employed by a UK entity but probably an Italian subsidiary co or even a third party? Something tells me the UK data protection laws aren't automatically applicable in a foreign jurisdiction. Clearly the second customer relations agent inhabits a different world to the rest of us. Again, I had to ask for my complaint to be escalated internally.

By the way, British Airways customer relations takes several weeks to respond to each webform message. They are in no hurry to resolve customer complaints. Presumably a number of customers give up by this point as the money is certainly not worth the continual chasing that must be done. Furthermore, as the majority of replies (despite a couple of them being quite lengthy copy and paste jobs!) actually ignore the point about luggage being zipped together, Customer Relations staff are clearly trained to ignore and sidestep the crux of a customer complaint. Usually I am strictly non-contentious. But sometimes, I can be a stubborn, ornery beeatch. Hence I kept pursuing this.

Nearly three months later and the third agent has finally got round to looking at my complaint. She says that she has actually looked at the Snokart website (it only took three months!) and can see the dimensions do meet BA baggage policy. Refund to be issued in due course.

I was charged £45.76. Refund received of £45.08. Typical I guess.

@vjmehra, I did tweet BA - thanks for the tip. The twitter team initially insisted they are unable to do anything to progress a complaint as this must be dealt with by the customer relations team. Although they do respond to negative tweets with direct messages. After 2 months 3 weeks of regular tweeting about the incompetence of BA, the twitter team finally said they would take ownership of my case but by this point, I think the third customer relations agent was finally looking into it.

So if anyone pursues a complaint about BA first, note the customer relations staff are trained to waste your time for as long as possible and not to address the crux of your complaint. Secondly, if you use the online webform to communicate, you will never receive a copy of the message or acknowledgement it was sent. I'd suggest copying and pasting your messages into a word doc with a note of the date and time submitted for each. Thirdly, um, well if you pursue a complaint it's probably best if it isn't about the money but about the principle. If I hadn't been treated like poo-poo in Venice, I doubt that I would have pursued this so vigorously or via the multiple platforms I used.
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snow name, nice result, eventually Toofy Grin

You have kept and printed off the relevant message from BA staff saying the luggage does meet their baggage policy to show at the desk next time they try this ? Toofy Grin
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@snow name, itís probably EU rules on data protection, but wahay, soon you wonít have that trouble and they probably refunded you in the Euros you paid, hence Fd difference.

Well done for sticking with it though, I would have too. One bag. Which fit.

The fact it might separate is none of their business.
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snow name wrote:
... BA [...] customer relations staff are trained to waste your time for as long as possible and not to address the crux of your complaint....


That is also my own experience with that airline: they really are paying their staff (not very much - many of them are based in poor parts of the world) to fob you off.

My personal recourse has been direct legal action. They're happy to steal stuff from you, but once they know you won't let them get away with it they settle immediately and without fuss.

Good to hear you nailed them.
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My thoughts:

1. With any airline, you will get a different experience depending on which airport you go to. The people behind the counter may have a BA uniform on but likely actually work for the company running the airport. So not necessarily singing off the same song sheet.

2. In my blunt opinion, SnoKart bags are definitely '2 bags joining together' and not 'one bag separating in two'. So I am reasonably inclined to say just because it happens to have some QR clips sewn on in matching places, that shouldn't exempt you from the baggage rules that the rest of us have to play to.
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@snow name,

1. Why didnít you follow up the suggestion to use Twitter? I doubt that the way you got your money back was worth the hassle and time you had to put in.
2. dp has a point about Snowcart being strap to get he luggage. If you get away with it normally be grateful, but it is hard to fault a baggage check in agent who does not agree with you.
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dp wrote:
My thoughts:

1. With any airline, you will get a different experience depending on which airport you go to. The people behind the counter may have a BA uniform on but likely actually work for the company running the airport. So not necessarily singing off the same song sheet.

2. In my blunt opinion, SnoKart bags are definitely '2 bags joining together' and not 'one bag separating in two'. So I am reasonably inclined to say just because it happens to have some QR clips sewn on in matching places, that shouldn't exempt you from the baggage rules that the rest of us have to play to.


If it zips together to form one unit then it shouldn't really be an issue as long as its within the weight restrictions & requires no special handling care.
If its modular by desig, then it should not be counted as separate luggage.
As for the brand.. after seeing my mates ski boot bag fail last 2x trips, im going to stick with my dakine roller
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@snow name, I can see why the check-in staff asked you to separate it. But looking at the Snokart website, it zips together and it designed to be transported as one piece, so you got the right decision IMO. +1 nice job on following through to the end, and not be fobbed off by a cut and paste from the T&C which doesnít address the question.

I doubt the douchebag double and a douchebag hugger attached would be treated as one piece, but I think thatís fair as itís more designed to attach for convience. Iím always at the 20-23kg limit anyway with my ski bag once filled.
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philwig wrote:

My personal recourse has been direct legal action. They're happy to steal stuff from you, but once they know you won't let them get away with it they settle immediately and without fuss.


Do you do this via the small claims court (only did this once on a totally different issue - an eBay seller that refused to refund me, after I had returned the item, and we went through the complaints procedure which had ruled in my favour. It was very effective in this case)? Just wondering if the court wouldnít ask why you didnít go through the complaints procedure first?
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@Themasterpiece, I helped Mrs a make a successful small claim in court. It was worth the effort - but IMV would not have been worthwhile for a claim of less than £1k.
A complaint on Twitter seems a far more sensible approach in this case ( or clicked together cases wink ).
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@achilles, he did tweet

. After 2 months 3 weeks of regular tweeting about the incompetence of BA, the twitter team finally said they would take ownership of my case but by this point, I think the third customer relations agent was finally looking into it.
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@holidayloverxx, ah - thanks.
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Themasterpiece wrote:
... Do you do this via the small claims court (only did this once on a totally different issue - an eBay seller that refused to refund me, after I had returned the item, and we went through the complaints procedure which had ruled in my favour. It was very effective in this case)? Just wondering if the court wouldnít ask why you didnít go through the complaints procedure first?
I think it's "a small claim in the county court". It does actually matter - if you're discussing with an adversary, you want to get the terminology precisely correct especially if they have legal people.

My most recent trouble with BA was them refusing to pay my direct expenses because I didn't have receipts, following a 24 hour delay. I did not know when I incurred the costs that I was going to need to prove I'd done so, hence this felt like them adding insult to injury. My expenses were relatively cheap as I had to sleep on the floor.

I politely suggested that the judge at the Cambridge County Court would probably not believe their suggestion that I could possibly live at Heathrow for 24 hours without incurring any expenses, and that I'd be happy to accept whatever damages she would allocate to me. They paid my claim in full by return.

I can also see that getting BA to pay via the "bad PR" approach may work, but the justice system is also quick and effective if you've got them bang to rights.
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@dp, @achilles, Snokart luggage actually zip together to form one piece and aren't simply strapped together. Snokart market the luggage on the fact that as long as you meet the size and weight requirements, it's supposed to be accepted as one piece of checked luggage. @dp - I was adhering to the same baggage rules as everyone else hence the refund finally being made. It isn't against the BA baggage policy to have luggage that zips together provided it meets the size and weight requirement, which is why I've never had a problem flying with BA from Gatwick, Heathrow, Munich, Geneva and once before from Venice.

@under a new name, you're probably right about the data protection point. As for the difference in amount - I'd already told them how much the refund should have been so I think it's more carelessness on their part rather than fluctuating exchange rates.

@philwig, well done! Glad to hear you got things sorted without going through the hassle of legal proceedings.
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@snow name, I'm currently looking for new luggage and the SnoKart is high on the list. My only issue is weight for each piece. Unless I travel First or Business, if I combine the bags I'm going to be well overweight . . . though it may help if my carry-on is a proper hernia bag.

Really starting to consider shipping kit to destination rather than carry . . . actually I've just had a business idea Madeye-Smiley
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Masque wrote:
@snow name, I'm currently looking for new luggage and the SnoKart is high on the list. My only issue is weight for each piece. Unless I travel First or Business, if I combine the bags I'm going to be well overweight . . . though it may help if my carry-on is a proper hernia bag.

Really starting to consider shipping kit to destination rather than carry . . . actually I've just had a business idea Madeye-Smiley


snokart is wee wee poor quality. 3 flights my mates boot bag managed - he had to buy a new bag to bring his boots home!
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snow name wrote:
@dp, @achilles, Snokart luggage actually zip together to form one piece and aren't simply strapped together. Snokart market the luggage on the fact that as long as you meet the size and weight requirements, it's supposed to be accepted as one piece of checked luggage. @dp - I was adhering to the same baggage rules as everyone else hence the refund finally being made. It isn't against the BA baggage policy to have luggage that zips together provided it meets the size and weight requirement, which is why I've never had a problem flying with BA from Gatwick, Heathrow, Munich, Geneva and once before from Venice.


I wasn't really suggesting that you weren't adhering to the rules, so much as that the rules shouldn't necessarily tolerate zip-together luggage about being one piece. Because it creates the question of where to draw the line. It means if everyone took their suitcases to a tailor and had mirrored zips sewn on all their bags, could everyone check two bags in and call it one - because their luggage is "modular"? Or does it have to be designed from manufacture to be modular, etc etc?

But then I think may be I am wrong in that thought. The airport operator processes baggage so presumably charges each bag processed back to the airline. So if the handlers only need to handle one piece, and providing the airport only processes one bag-tag, the airline is only being charged for one article and therefore maybe it is totally reasonable for that article to be comprised of numerous parts, joined together. I think really as long as the resulting article fits within the dimensions and weight limits and is handled and tagged as a single item, you can probably call it a single article of luggage.

[opinion changed]

as an aside, I agree with the others in that the SnoKart luggage I've seen has all been well on it's way to knackered. Generally speaking I think you can't go far wrong with Dakine luggage, but if you want something a bit bigger, I have an Evoc roller bag which easily does 4-5 pairs of skis, or 2 pairs plus clothes etc.
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Quote:

I agree with the others in that the SnoKart luggage I've seen has all been well on it's way to knackered. Generally speaking I think you can't go far wrong with Dakine luggage

I have an original Dakine Split Roller that is now over 20 years old and still going strong. It must have done 100+ trips summer and winter, or to put it another way about £1 per trip. Also have a smaller one for weekends and that is fairly recent but I would say not quite as robust as the old stuff.

I looked at SnoKart out of curiosity and am of the opinion its all a bit desperate and daft. Reminds me of the sad travel jacket I saw on Dragons' Den that could take about 20kg of stuff in all its pockets, just to get around checking a bag.
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Pruman wrote:

I looked at SnoKart out of curiosity and am of the opinion its all a bit desperate and daft. Reminds me of the sad travel jacket I saw on Dragons' Den that could take about 20kg of stuff in all its pockets, just to get around checking a bag.


I have to say I disagree on that front. SnoKart luggage, by design, would be ideal for me. If the quality I've witnessed didn't seem so bad, I'd be all over it. For short trips, I pack all my luggage into a double ski roller and the problem with doing so is that double ski rollers make excellent bags for packing skis in but aren't so great as suitcases - they're impractical in the hotel room and take up way too much floor space, especially when you opt for the triple/quad arrangements on the bashes! My current measure is to take a collapsible holdall (it weighs very little and packs down tiny) and once I've got my skis and equipment out, move all my clothes into the holdall and then stash the ski roller under the bed. But it would clearly be way easier if I could just separate the bags, stash the ski bag, and keep the suitcase component.

As a second note, there is also the fact that you spend lots of moolah on your ski luggage and use it for 3-4 weeks a year. The SnoKart thing gives you a rolling suitcase which you can use all year round, and then add a ski bag onto during the season. And then there's also the bonus that if you just want to take skis to the fridge for an evening, you've got a compact ski bag when you take the suitcase component away. I, on the other hand, bought a separate ski bag for little trips like that, because my double roller bag is too big for a chill factorE locker.

So I really can see the benefit of modular ski luggage. It'd just be nice if somebody could make some with a functional QC process attached too.
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@dp, thanks for the clarification. I see where you're coming from now. Even zipped together, the total weight for BA still has to be no more than 23kg for one bag. I think that might be a more important factor for an airline as surely they calculate the amount of fuel for a flight based on projected weight of the plane?

@Masque, although I love the design of my Snokart luggage, as others have said, it does not last well. I've two seam rips (the longest is 20cm long) on the outside of the wheelie bag. Ok, so one seam rip may have been my fault for overpacking but the other was definitely caused in transit. I think it's done about five or six trips only since November 2016. Luckily I have a sewing machine and both rips are easy to repair. I've also broken two of the buckles but again, easy to replace those myself.

The other issue with Snokart luggage is the weight when empty. I only ever use the ski bag and the wheelie base bag together due to baggage weight limitations. Together these weigh 6.5kg when empty. I've never needed to use the third bag but if I did, the total empty weight would be 8.5kg.

Snokart luggage also seems to be overpriced when compared to other brands. When I got my Kart 6, Snow & Rock had reduced it by £80. A friend had also given me Snow & Rock voucher for my birthday to help with the cost. I wouldn't pay full price for it.

On the other hand, when you're not particularly tall (I'm 5'1") and have very little by way of actual muscles, lugging one full ski bag around on public transport or even walking to the tube station is difficult and darn awkward as it's bulky and taller than me. Whereas with my Snokart, I find it easier to jump on and off different trains because then I have the two bags separated. The ski bag just has my skis, poles and salopettes, so it's relatively easy to carry with the shoulder strap whilst pulling along the (possibly overfull) wheelie bag. Then I just zip the two together at the airport.

I can see myself collapsing at the airport if I ever had to use @dp's Evoc bag. Unless the boy came with it to carry it Blush
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snow name wrote:
@dp, thanks for the clarification. I see where you're coming from now. Even zipped together, the total weight for BA still has to be no more than 23kg for one bag. I think that might be a more important factor for an airline as surely they calculate the amount of fuel for a flight based on projected weight of the plane?


I don't want to open a can of worms here but obviously they can't really do a projected weight of the aircraft since they don't know what the people weigh, and the weight of the people is more significant than the weight of the luggage. A plane full of DPs is obviously going to be somewhat heavier than a plane full of snow names.

Like I said before (and hence why my opinion changed), I should imagine the airport operator charges the airline per bag and that charge is based on the number of baggage tags which get scanned through the airport. Therefore, as long as you only have one tag, the airline only get charged for one bag. So yeah I guess you could try strapping normal bags together, the airline could have good grounds to refuse it on the principle that it's not secure. So when you have 'modular' luggage like SnoKart, I should think that can be considered strong and secure enough to hold together through whatever the flight and the handlers at either end might throw at it. As you rightfully point out, the weight limit doesn't change regardless of how many bags you strap together.

snow name wrote:
although I love the design of my Snokart luggage, as others have said, it does not last well. I've two seam rips (the longest is 20cm long) on the outside of the wheelie bag. Ok, so one seam rip may have been my fault for overpacking but the other was definitely caused in transit. I think it's done about five or six trips only since November 2016. Luckily I have a sewing machine and both rips are easy to repair. I've also broken two of the buckles but again, easy to replace those myself.


That's really shoddy it has to be said. Whether it was your fault or not, it shouldn't rip from over packing. Ski bags in airports are always going to be treated more harshly than regular luggage - they're large and awkward to carry, which will always mean that they get manhandled a lot less carefully. So ski bags ought to be produced to higher quality than regular luggage, where that certainly sounds like it's lower.

Quote:
I can see myself collapsing at the airport if I ever had to use @dp's Evoc bag. Unless the boy came with it to carry it Blush


Safe to say I am not offering myself for sale to carry your luggage. Madeye-Smiley
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dp wrote:

I don't want to open a can of worms here but obviously they can't really do a projected weight of the aircraft since they don't know what the people weigh, and the weight of the people is more significant than the weight of the luggage. A plane full of DPs is obviously going to be somewhat heavier than a plane full of snow names.


I'm not going to touch your can of worms as it sounds like you know more than me about this. I just figured they took an average person's weight but can't say I've ever bothered to find out.

dp wrote:


Safe to say I am not offering myself for sale to carry your luggage. Madeye-Smiley


That's fine, you can do it for free. If you change your mind, I've drafted an ad for you - "For sale: one Evoc bag, used, with a dp carrier (who may be used, unused or possibly inbetween)."
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@snow name, the reason it's a can of worms is that no shortage of people hold the point of view that you should get a maximum gross weight allowance, where your body weight, baggage weight and cabin bag weight are totalled together.

But it mainly works for people who think that being tall, fat or a bit of both is somehow your choice and that whether genetic or through poor life decisions, it should be penalised when flying.
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Back in 2009 there was place at Heathrow where you could get your multiple bags pallet wrapped together so they went as one, to avoid the multiple bag charges. I assume that is no longer allowed Sad
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dp wrote:
But it mainly works for people who think that being tall, fat or a bit of both is somehow your choice and that whether genetic or through poor life decisions, it should be penalised when flying.

It's physics.

You're not penalized by people, you're penalized by physics.

It's the same when it comes to cycling uphill. It takes more energy hauling the mass up any vertical distance. So even if you've made all the right choices in life and have massive muscle for your height/weight, you're going to have to spend more energy get to get up...
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@abc, I understand the physics part when it comes to cycling uphill. That's just something you have to deal with, and you take the rough with the smooth and appreciate to the days you have to get things down off high shelves or watch a concert stood in a crowd of people who, unlike you, can't actually see the stage.

But it's not physics whether the airline charge you more for being big. The existing policy works, the planes still go up and they still come down, so any change would be led by people, not physics.
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I have a couple of super cheap rucksack style, cabin baggage sized bags, that are just the right size for the kids to pack a week's clothes into. They happen to have compression straps with buckles, that means I can put them back to back and make one bundle. Ryanair had no problem accepting this for checked in luggage a couple of years ago.

You get what you pay for. Oh, hang on.
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