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....more....is pole planting necessary...take 2...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Right...small coda to the other thread.

For the annual 5-day weekend with two close friends, I don't harry them with constant 'do this', 'do that', mainly because they would kill me and leave my cold body on the hill.

Instead, I watch them for the first day, then give ONE bit of technique which I then nag about for the remaining four days. This way, their technique improves and I stay alive. Handy.

This last trip, I thought that one thing would make a quantum change in their skiing. The conditions were difficult - good underfoot, although banked and choppy after the first 48hrs of light powder - terrible viz. I could see that both of them were getting in the back seat. OK...so I taught them to stop not by making a hockey-stop (using tails)but by turning the upper body straight down the fall line, squatting hard and fast, and using 'hands forward and down'. This stopped them with the FRONT of their edges. The angulation and uphill shoulder around, with the shoulders square to the fall-line immediately and automatically increases the angle of both skis. Your head is thinking 'hands forward and down' but the effect is to increase the angulation under your feet. I showed them standing still that this action automatically translates right through the hips to the feet and then to the edges. Hands round and down - and then edges just do it without any conscious process.

They then used this when stopping every time and in every place. The thing is, the hockey stop using tails may be fast and fun, but it is COMPLETELY different to stopping with front edges, and COMPLETELY hopeless on steeps, since it puts you in the back seat, you shoot off into the next turn, and then, being in the back seat, you are a passenger. In contrast, stopping with FRONT and underfoot edge means you are in exactly the right position on steeps to reduce speed AND be ready for the next turn. In the front seat - driver not passenger.

The good thing - even in clag, on chopped ground, the two of them were hard-driving competently down each slope - much easier on Ant's damaged knee - and Oliver was suddenly charging, but in complete control on steeps. From then on, no hockey stops, since this would be an unconscious fall-back on steeps, and just wrong. The new approach become unconscious very quickly, and they had a ball. Job done.
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@valais2, Thank you for that tip. I will put it into practice next week on the BB bash.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@valais2, great explanation of how to avoid hockey stop turns. Itís a habit I need to get out of.
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"hockey stop using tails may be fast and fun"

Puzzled Puzzled

Why would you do this? it just sounds like poor technique.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@under a new name, ...uann... my son loves doing them in order to cover me with snow ... but unlike plateau intermediates he only uses them for this purpose ... but re op I noticed that my two int colleagues were using tail stops on steep ground and getting into significant trouble ... stopping them using this for normal stops broke a deep habit
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As well as avoiding doing them, I'd also avoid using the ugly name 'hockey stops'! Much prefer the elegance and control of an uphill christie!! Very Happy (We Learned to Ski- 1973!!!)
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under a new name wrote:
"hockey stop using tails may be fast and fun"

Puzzled Puzzled

Why would you do this? it just sounds like poor technique.


Because it's one of the most fun moves you can do on skis (the goal is to not actually stop mind)!

We call it the tail slash not hockey stop though wink



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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@clarky999, oh, in those circumstances... for sure.

But not as a stopping manouevre on piste, surely!
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@clarky999, ..bloody show off...........(envy).......
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under a new name wrote:


But not as a stopping manouevre on piste, surely!


Only if there's a snowboarder sitting down wink

valais2 haha #sorrynotsorry wink Two different days in Ischgl last season, one of my a mate and one of a mate by me. TBH both make the conditions look a lot better than they really were... The ski media would really struggle without the slash/faketurn!
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Any chance of a video of what is being described in the OP? I'm having trouble visualizing the movement from the description but definitely think it's something that would benefit my skiing.
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@Fastpaws, +1
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Fastpaws wrote:
Any chance of a video of what is being described in the OP? I'm having trouble visualizing the movement from the description but definitely think it's something that would benefit my skiing.


So glad you asked this. I've been hunting youtube & suchlike for a demo, not found what I think it is - I might be very wrong though.
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@Fastpaws, @Paul334, @kittya,

I think this is what is being described:


http://youtube.com/v/0e7-mNDgIXw
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
huntleth wrote:
@Fastpaws, @Paul334, @kittya,

I think this is what is being described:


I don't think so huntleth as the point of the OP is to avoid hockey stopping.
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Why are you lot still using poles anyway? You're spending your hard-earned on kit you don't need! FREE YOUR HANDS SHEEPLE!
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@Fastpaws, did you watch the video? Maybe I have misunderstood but it describes stopping by keeping your body pointed down the fall line and rotating the skis, which sounds like what you're after.
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huntleth wrote:
@Fastpaws, did you watch the video? Maybe I have misunderstood but it describes stopping by keeping your body pointed down the fall line and rotating the skis, which sounds like what you're after.

Yes, I have watched the video. Darren Turner's series is very good and I've seen them all.
The video linked is about how to hockey stop and the OP is specifically about avoiding hockey stopping by digging in your front edges as opposed to the tails. Specifically:
Quote:
so I taught them to stop not by making a hockey-stop (using tails)but by turning the upper body straight down the fall line, squatting hard and fast, and using 'hands forward and down'
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Ok, to me that is exactly what's being described but I guess I am misunderstanding. I guess I would like to see a video of this movement as well then Smile
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It's specifically the angulation & stopping with front edges. I'm struggling to visualise the movement, don't think I've seen it (or not recognised it if I have).

Not been successful in finding any examples of a non hockey / non snow plough style stop on internets - a still pic of the final position (stopped) might be helpful?
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@kittya, @Fastpaws, ...ok..

See the finishing position in this ... not what you want on a steep slope, ready to be forward and well-positioned for the next turn...


http://youtube.com/v/RZO7_B7hXbE

And love the guy walking In the background
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@valais2, looked reasonably centred to me.

Given hockey stops are usually done on ice skates... centred is what you want.
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@under a new name, up to a point Lord Copper ... I think heís in the back seat with skis forward of his centre line -ie leaning into the hill ... bet if you put a pressure meter in the boots the pressure would be on the rear cuff of the boot .. well I would contrast it with this:


http://youtube.com/v/wOGg8faQRdk

Where heís almost stopping completely, but with good rotation and body curled over the skis ... and a pressure meter would show hard pressure in the front of the boot

Whadya think uann?

I think itís seemingly subtle but makes a big difference in practice - interesting watching where the spray of snow comes from: mainly tails or mainly front edges
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I don't know, but the big images there of Ischgl look like schmear turns to me. As a photographer I'd say they're pretty common. For maximum points you can ride through your own cloud.
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If you are really off balance to an appreciable degree, youíll end up in all sorts of a mess. I think the camera angle is deceptive.

It also occurs to me that mostly snow will naturally spray from the back of the skis as they swing round so Iím unconvinced itís a diagnostic.
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philwig wrote:
For maximum points you can ride through your own cloud.
Cloudburst Turns. Easy to get horribly wrong Laughing
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Yup, braking (to a stop or not) by crushing the shovel edges into the snow whilst remaining anticipated all good when you're in too hot in steep deep powder. It takes a fine sense of balance to not go over the handlebars though.
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@shep, ...yerse...I think there's a real difference in stopping on the shovels and stopping on the tails...it's subtle in many ways, but then so many things in moving from poor to good technique are subtle....
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@shep, or, indeed, omitting to realise thereís a road in front of you.

I wish iíd had a camera...

@valais2, I donít think itís that subtle!
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Yes, I find a double eject faceplant onto a forestry track by far the most effective stopping manoeuvre off piste. Quite painful tho Embarassed Skullie
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I've got a lot of time for the guy in the videos in the orange jacket and black sallies, I've seen lots of his videos and they seem very good - he seems a fine skier to me.
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@valais2, now that I've read your post for the umpteenth time I've finally realised that by "front edges" you don't actually mean the edges facing down the hill. Which sounded like the scariest stopping technique known to man.
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@valais2, thank you. The second video explains that very well. His pole demo of positioning works for my tiny brain...
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I'm going to choose to interpret "front edge" as the downhill edge since that makes for a much more amusing image!

Sounds like you taught your buds to add separation to their skiing which is a good thing Smile
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Valkyrie wrote:
@valais2, now that I've read your post for the umpteenth time I've finally realised that by "front edges" you don't actually mean the edges facing down the hill. Which sounded like the scariest stopping technique known to man.


I still have no idea what he means
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@kittya, thanks ... I think that's right.

@MoonfireSpam, & Valkyrie it would indeed be interesting to try to stop on downhill edges ... GAPPPPOW...face plant.

Nope, I meant more pressure on the forward section of the ski than aft. You can stop in the back seat with more pressure on the rear section - hence a nice spray of snow and ar=e rotated more round to the front. A classic hockey stop. Or you can stop in a 'separated' position with more pressure on the fore part of the ski - which gets you in a great forward position for smooth linked turns on steeps.
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So you mean finishing the turn countered, head looking downhill, pressure more on the balls of the feet as opposed to slamming the skis sideways looking in the direction of the skis to the side of the piste with the weight more on the heels and in the backseat?
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@DB, er..yes.

Now why couldn't I have said it that succinctly and clearly...
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@DB, thanks, now this thread makes sense to me!
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@valais2, No idea, I don't have an answer for everything but that won't stop me arguing about it on the internet. wink

@rob@rar, No probs makes a change me being able to explain something to you. Very Happy


For those who are still puzzled I think this is what this thread is about.

There's more than one way to ski. On the terrain he's skiing in this clip I would rather carve (read attempt to), I would use skiing with a heavy counter on steeper slopes or on slopes with limited space (e.g Chutes / couloirs) i.e. Short turns with limited space where too much speed would cause me problems.


http://youtube.com/v/YlRyavRBzes


Another clip on the same theme from Warren, this is where a strong blocking pole plant really helps.

http://youtube.com/v/_BoHnTFZHL0


This on the other hand is carving short turns which is seen as the better technique if you have more space and it's not too steep. (Wish I could ski as well as this) Too steep and you go into carve warp speed which works for people such as Marcel Hirscher but mere mortals wouldn't have the skill to contain the speed.

http://youtube.com/v/vCL3XU78GDA


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 7-02-18 15:55; edited 7 times in total
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