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Technique: speed versus turns

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I like to make turns. I feel its the most enjoyable part of the experience. However, I ski with some friends who go noticeably quicker than I do, in part due to making fewer turns. I feel that they survive a particular run rather than skiing it well. Each to their own i suppose but i find it frustrating that I'm bring waited on, despite my head telling me that I'm a better skier than some of them. Do others find this? Or should i just straight line it more?
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Ski how you want to ski. Turning is good being in control is good it sounds like your friends are happy to have a breather while they wait for you.
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@Roguevfr, Why do you think that your friends are just surviving a run rather than skiing well? Also why do you think you are a better skier than some of them? I ask this because I am interested in understanding where you are coming from.

Remember you are skiing for enjoyment and you should do what you enjoy. Recreational skiing is not a competition so do what you like doing
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Rabbie wrote:
@Roguevfr, Why do you think that your friends are just surviving a run rather than skiing well? Also why do you think you are a better skier than some of them? I ask this because I am interested in understanding where you are coming from.


I feel like I'm enjoying the run and trying to make good turns and improve my skiing as I ski. "Getting down" isn't my idea of skiing well. Similar to being a good driver, or a skilled motorbike rider , making a skilled , controlled turn is where I find enjoyment.
I guess as per the straight lining thread, any damn fool can go fast in a straight line....
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@Roguevfr, I often feel the same way.
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Just take them on some steeper stuff with moguls. Job done.
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@Roguevfr, If you are enjoying the run then great. That's what it is all about. I am still not sure that your friends are just straight lining it. May just not being as careful as you but still enjoying themselves in a sensible way.
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I was once advised to start skiing a slope as if it's steeper than you believe it to be....get yourself in control and take it from there.

Learn how to generate speed from a turn and gradually up the ante....you will then be skiing faster (and in control) as the terrain gets more challenging/crowded. IME. People who ski very fast (and badly), pick terrain that is easy....or are just dangerous.
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You're skiing like a good snowboarder Toofy Grin Toofy Grin

It's all about having fun with your turns, not a race down! Very Happy
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Different folks, different strokes. Some people enjoy the satisfaction of focusing on their technique, some people enjoy the exhilaration of skiing quickly, some people just enjoy being out and active in the mountains. As long as people are skiing safely and not a danger to others then each to their own.

Don't worry about the others in your group. Just do what you enjoy and be glad you have a group of friends who feel the same and aren't judging you.
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In my normal ski clan, we always have a range of speeds in the group (some are more in control than others at those speeds), and we never have any qualms about waiting for the slower ones. It's tough for us recreational skiers to go all-out all-day (and I'm one of the fitter/better ones if I say so myself), so don't worry about your friends waiting for you, I'm sure they are enjoying the rest and the scenery!

Honestly we'd rather our group all have fun doing what they want than worrying about keeping up with us and getting stressed/feeling out of control
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Roguevfr,

I'm going to reveal a guilty secret!

There have been times when I have resented the possibility that some ski mates might be thinking they are better than me because they get down before me when I am making linked carves around the piste and they are skidding more directly down the piste.

Then I have got hold of myself and said "so what?" and let it go.
If they ask me for some feedback on their skiing then I may suggest a few tips for carving but otherwise I'll let them ski the way they want to.
But I don't change the way I'm skiing either.
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Kids are very guilty of this, sure they get down before you but are they in complete control? the need to be first drives them over the enjoyment
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Maybe I'll leave my well prepared and waxed skis behind and just jump on a pair of dry, unwaxed rentals and point them down the fall line without the worry of hitting warp 6.
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@Robin Agogo, +1
When all the off piste is tracked or rock hard, we just have fun with ollies, butters, slope-side 180s/360s, ice-grinds, garlands, alley-oops, hand-down carves, nose rolls etc.. any flat-track farter can go fast in a straight line.
It's all about having fun Smile
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@olderscot, nail on head!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I enjoy the sensation of speed and while I would like to ski better/prettier it’s a secondary consideration. I ski as fast as I reasonably can while staying fully in control.

As others have said... ski however you want to ski and in what ever way gives you enjoyment. (As long as I don’t have to wait for you while you are poncing about😀😀)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I often ski slower than I “need” to on moderate terrain for various reasons, including fun. It’s at those times I tend to notice reckless intermidiots the most. You know the type.... crap technique, vague directional control, ineffective brakes.... and yet all they can think about is getting to the bottom as fast as they dare. Usually in small packs of like minded fools.

Not suggesting your ski mates are of that stereotype, but sounds like they have at least some of those intermidiot tendencies, while you are trying to become a better skier. Maybe suggest more challenging terrain where your better technique and control will be obvious and they won’t be able to straight line?
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Oddly I didn't think the amount of turns you made made much difference to the time down the piste. It is the amount of times you stop for a little rest
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jedster wrote:
,

I'm going to reveal a guilty secret!

There have been times when I have resented the possibility that some ski mates might be thinking they are better than me because they get down before me when I am making linked carves around the piste and they are skidding more directly down the piste.


Same, actually. I ski fairly slowly on piste (at least until they're either lovely and slushy or very quiet) - I don't enjoy skiing fast on a firm surface where you don't have the resistance to stop fairly instantly when you slam the skis sideways or have a chance of losing the edge (as I think you mentioned in another post recently coming over a roller on hard corduroy and getting a ski rattled off?), and I do not trust that 90+% of the other skiers on the piste can stop as quickly as they should be able to or won't themselves lose an edge and slide unpredictably into me or my path. In those situations I just find where all the snow has been scraped off to and ski the little piles of soft like moguls, which I find much more fun than worrying about finding grip. I'm much happier skiing a big offpiste slope fast than the vast majority of pistes.

Saying that, a couple of weeks ago I tried a pair of slalom skis for the first time in years and now I want a pair Very Happy
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clarky999 wrote:
jedster wrote:
,

I'm going to reveal a guilty secret!

There have been times when I have resented the possibility that some ski mates might be thinking they are better than me because they get down before me when I am making linked carves around the piste and they are skidding more directly down the piste.


Same, actually. I ski fairly slowly on piste (at least until they're either lovely and slushy or very quiet) - I don't enjoy skiing fast on a firm surface where you don't have the resistance to stop fairly instantly when you slam the skis sideways or have a chance of losing the edge (as I think you mentioned in another post recently coming over a roller on hard corduroy and getting a ski rattled off?), and I do not trust that 90+% of the other skiers on the piste can stop as quickly as they should be able to or won't themselves lose an edge and slide unpredictably into me or my path. In those situations I just find where all the snow has been scraped off to and ski the little piles of soft like moguls, which I find much more fun than worrying about finding grip. I'm much happier skiing a big offpiste slope fast than the vast majority of pistes.

Saying that, a couple of weeks ago I tried a pair of slalom skis for the first time in years and now I want a pair Very Happy


This ie pretty much me. Though I have had the SL skis for longer. The adavantage of this approach is that you can pretty much destroy anyone on the slope when conditions start to get really cust up and corn moundy. While the speed merchants flounder with their shoulder truns you can pretty much blitz any line you like playing with GS radius and zip line bumps.
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100% this. I've taken to bringing a pair of SL skis to my daughters races since my incident with ice and my wide planks....what a difference. Night and Day (I know, I know, user error, not the gear, sure everyone can carve ice with 100mm skis)....but seriously so fast to edge on the SL skis, its brilliant.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
johnE wrote:
Oddly I didn't think the amount of turns you made made much difference to the time down the piste. It is the amount of times you stop for a little rest


Slalom versus downhill.
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i snowboard, but i'm guessing the same applies, but don't overlook that sometimes, especially when its compact snow (some call it ice Wink ) that speed is your friend.

the additional speed helps create the additional force needed to cut into the hard pack, when you're going slowly you simply skid across the surface unable to get an edge in Smile
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There is a different but related point. If two skiers to reach the bottom of a run simultaneously the one who has done the most turns has skied the fastest. I noticed this skiing with my son and a young French lad, some years ago. The latter did the classic mincing turns on very long, old (borrowed, like his rear entry boots) skis. My son was doing big carves. My son covered much more ground in the same time = was the faster skier. And getting better sensations.

They were both heaps faster than I was, needless to say.
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@clarky999,
Quote:

I don't enjoy skiing fast on a firm surface where you don't have the resistance to stop fairly instantly when you slam the skis sideways or have a chance of losing the edge (as I think you mentioned in another post recently coming over a roller on hard corduroy and getting a ski rattled off?), and I do not trust that 90+% of the other skiers on the piste can stop as quickly as they should be able to or won't themselves lose an edge and slide unpredictably into me or my path. In those situations I just find where all the snow has been scraped off to and ski the little piles of soft like moguls, which I find much more fun than worrying about finding grip

Yes - well put, me too. In situations where I am not confident that I can really hold an edge (ski the slow line fast) then I tend to slow down and ski pivotty turns in the fall line. When I lost that ski it was a bit of overconfidence - had been holding an edge very nicely on the gentler sections of a black despite the very hard snow but asked a bit much of myself to keep carving on the steepest section hence the skid and eject! Writing cheques I couldn't cash rolling eyes
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

I know, I know, user error, not the gear, sure everyone can carve ice with 100mm skis


TBH I've never seen someone carve proper linked turns on a icy piste of any steepness on 100mm skis. Sure I've seen people riding an edge on a rockhard blue run but making clean transitions and bending the ski into different turn shapes? I've not seen it. If the piste is soft it's a different story.
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Quote:

In situations where I am not confident that I can really hold an edge (ski the slow line fast) then I tend to slow down and ski pivotty turns in the fall line.


Exactly. Me too.

The secret of course is to make it look (to the less initiated) like you are carving perfect turns... Twisted Evil
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
jedster wrote:
Quote:

I know, I know, user error, not the gear, sure everyone can carve ice with 100mm skis


TBH I've never seen someone carve proper linked turns on a icy piste of any steepness on 100mm skis. Sure I've seen people riding an edge on a rockhard blue run but making clean transitions and bending the ski into different turn shapes? I've not seen it. If the piste is soft it's a different story.


Agreed and I certainly can't do it! Icy steep pistes are for me where I call it a day on 100 mm skis and get my dedicated carvers out. Luckily doesn't happen very often where I ski.
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jedster wrote:

TBH I've never seen someone carve proper linked turns on a icy piste of any steepness on 100mm skis. Sure I've seen people riding an edge on a rockhard blue run but making clean transitions and bending the ski into different turn shapes? I've not seen it. If the piste is soft it's a different story.


Thinking about slo-mos of WC SL racers, I don't think even they are, considering the wobbling going on as the ski flexes and vibrates...

Maybe Hirscher but I don't think he's human.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Roguevfr, like you i do many turns, often quite a distance across the piste and i get great satisfaction at dancing my own tune which i assume everyone else does to.

WRT straightliners, it's very plausible that you are indeed doing twice their distance. Think of an equilateral triangle ( 3 sides and 3 internal / external angles all equal). Now in your mind twist the triangle around so one of sides is vertical, this could represent the fall line. Starting from the top ( get me here?) If traveling along the other two lines to meet up with the straightliners going from top to bottom, then you have exactly done twice their distance... Laughing

I don't find myself being waited often, but if i have to uncomfortably bomb it straight down too often to keep up, i just say 'goodbye'. Skiing beyond a point where i can confidently control myself and know my bindings won't release or be a risk / fright to others etc isn't my thing. Motto this year was 'Skill not Speed' , it's my age i guess and i think it worked well...
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@T_Hee, blimey! You're putting in some brutal turns. Wink

I'd settle for a bit under pi / 2 times.
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@jedster, I didn't have the choice in Fernie. Cham 97s on ice running carving drills. It's perfectly possible to carve fat skis on ice, it just takes more effort and exaggerated angulation. AND a relaxed and supple suspension, stiffen up and you're toast Twisted Evil
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I ski quite regularly with some speedy skiers, most often with an instructor/guide. Usually I turn up at the beginning of a week and I am noticeably trying to hang onto the back of them. This is due to me doing zig zag turns which require a lot of effort and I don’t make much progress down the fall line. At this point the instructor has me follow him doing some nice S shapes, with particular reference to taking more time in the transition and transferring pressure more progressively; this results in me making faster progress down the hill, being more in control, using less energy and making better shaped turns.
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@altis,
Quote:

@T_Hee, blimey! You're putting in some brutal turns. Wink


Perhaps, tighter than most, faster than most to - but really this rough 'analysis' was only as an example to relative distances covered.

If i run a smoothing curve through a few of those 'equalateral triangles' , then TBH, it all seems reasonable to me.

If i go, almost straight down, when i could have easily put more turns in , for me, i'd berate myself for almost wasting a run - but then, that's me! wink Laughing

ps. but i have learnt the importance of straightening up descents ( and do but could be better) in proportion to bump heights .


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 4-03-18 12:33; edited 1 time in total
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@DavidYacht

,
Quote:

At this point the instructor has me follow him doing some nice S shapes, with particular reference to taking more time in the transition and transferring pressure more progressively; this results in me making faster progress down the hill, being more in control, using less energy and making better shaped turns.



yep, almost effortless and MORE fun to i'm sure!
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Quote:


@jedster, I didn't have the choice in Fernie. Cham 97s on ice running carving drills. It's perfectly possible to carve fat skis on ice, it just takes more effort and exaggerated angulation. AND a relaxed and supple suspension, stiffen up and you're toast


I think we'd need to get into a debate about what we both mean by really carving a ski - e.g., linking tightly carved turns in which you are really bending the ski, crossing under between the turns, putting the skis back down on the the opposite edge delicately and gently - if you managed that on ice I'm full of admiration.
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