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Query re Alrberg off-piste routes

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Let's agree this is absurdism, the next stage of every online forum.

Yes, Schindlerkar is much flatter.
Must be because Austria is so close to Italy with all its earthquakes.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Never mind, I managed to buy 2 maps, specifically covering most of the Arlberg region off-piste routes other than the Sonnenkopf one(nesingatal), both available on amazon, so got my answer.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
& a book on Avy safety?

Nah that's just a scam by the huge Avy book industry rather trust my bro a ski instructor who skis in jeans and tells me April is completely safe.
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
& just to show how reliable your bro's cockwomble advice is. This is St Anton in April and a very popular off piste slope that almost everyone skis unguided. That's 200+ people in probelines etc and one heli with heat imaging. Anyone under it is very dead

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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
& a book on Avy safety?

Nah that's just a scam by the huge Avy book industry rather trust my bro a ski instructor who skis in jeans and tells me April is completely safe.
I naturally suspect you of being the author of such a book, just a 1 man con-trick, not an industry conspiracy.Hmmm, books are never good for me re learning. I could always do a 2-day avalanche-safety-awareness course in Innsbruck. At the moment, I am, at most, going to be skiing 1 day a year on my own off-piste(in safe areas!), with the rest devoted to open group-off-piste-training and next year is wholly devoted to private ski-guiding.I only plan to go off-piste on my own or with others in later years once I have (re)gained some experience off-piste re better ski-technique etc.OK, I'll consider reading a book on the subject by that stage.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
I don't often get to this stage but you really are a frikkin idiot with the comprehension and intuition of a turnip if you aren't a troll. No wonder books aren't good for you. Asking advice on internet forums isn't working out too well either.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I should mention that many ski-guides have ended up dying in avalanches, so there is a random factor. More to the point, my brother was skiing in Cervinia at the time with hard-packed snow, of which there was not much left it being late April, so massive shelves of snow coming off behind/around him was simply not a possibility.

Oh, more realistic online comments re off-piste dangers:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-25550111

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/advice/Michael-Schumacher-ski-accident-how-to-avoid-risks-off-piste/
Here'a thread from this very forum which is a lot more level-headed about the subject, pointing out how ridiculous it is to exaggerate the off-piste dangers:-

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=87323&sid=ea554090ec0358f7f272f243687a3560

It seems that this forum is just now going through a panicky, extreme "health-and-safety"-focused notion, no doubt due to a prevalence of ski-teachers/ski-authors etc. onboard.Hope this changes in future. One does want at least some support, after all - after all, I was not suggesting I was skiing off-piste without any guidance at all. All I had said, previously, was that I wanted to tell the private ski-instructor where to go - naturally, I would expect him to change the route if weather/avalanche-danger changed, and would comply.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
More data from online:-
My own experience of a serious accident off-piste in France came 18 years ago while accompanied by a guide. A friend was killed and I was seriously injured in a fall in a steep couloir.

It taught me a serious lesson. In the final analysis when you venture off-piste you must be aware that, even though you have a guide, it’s entirely your call. To hand over all responsibility for your safety to someone else can have fatal consequences.

But most skiing holidaymakers don’t leave the prepared pistes and the chance of being injured remains extremely small.

The risk overall of injury has remained unchanged in recent years at around 2.5 per thousand skiers. In simple terms this means that for every 1,000 skiers on the mountain two or three of them will require some form of medical treatment.

The chance of dying in a ski accident remains very low – for every 1.4 million people who buy a lift ticket and spend part or all of the day on the mountains, one death can be expected. For snowboarders the risk of death is significantly less than skiers."

and:-

"Resorts complain that inexperienced skiers often ignore warning signs and ski in deep snow close to a prepared piste because it’s inviting and easy for them to do so. Most avalanches triggered by skiers happen within sight of a piste."
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rolling eyes
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@CromCruach, you are correct that offpiste skiing can be done very safely, but only if you know how to evaluate and mitigate the risks - and you are clearly demonstrating you don't have the slightest concept of the processes involved.

The very fact of the 'random' (hard to predict is more accurate) nature is why just going off on any old route you've done before without thought as to why particularly zones/aspects/altitudes are hazardous on that day or even hour is not a good idea.

Equally it is precisely the not so extreme moderate slopes of 30-40° degrees that are most likely to slide, and you only need one little pocket in the wrong place to go to kill you.

I believe this is Cervinia, and it looks like spring conditions (though also a bit of a freak!):



Someone died in this little pocket right next to the lifts at Stubai 3 years ago:



Again, it is perfectly possible for you as a holiday skier to safely ski offpiste solo, but rather than just worrying about route navigation you need to educate yourself on terrain management and snow science/avalanche mechanics so you know WHY routes are safe or otherwise and can actually make a considered judgement on the risks you are taking.

Start here: https://utahavalanchecenter.org/tutorials

Then read this (borrow it form a library if you don't want to fall foul of the dastardly coven of avalanche education authors): https://www.amazon.com/Staying-Alive-Avalanche-Terrain-Tremper/dp/1594850844?tag=amz07b-21
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
clarky999 wrote:

I believe this is Cervinia, and it looks like spring conditions (though also a bit of a freak!):





See what he means about them grooming everything flat - didn't even leave corduroy wink
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Err, in Cervinia in c.1992 late April, there was somewhat less snow than that..........Point being, if you don't have a massive shelf of snow hanging over you, who cares? More to the point, I already stated that I was taking some precautions. The objection was to my doing off-piste skiing after some training, and then doing so on my own. That seems absurd...
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@clarky999, have to say there but for the grace of God... I would probably have been caught by the Stubai slide. And the Cervinia one is just bizarre. There must have been at least 100 people down that stretch before it slid.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Steilhang, agreed on both counts!

The Cervinia (I'm 99% sure that's Cervinia, though it's been posted and attributed to a number of resorts over the years) is a total freak. The Stubai one was really really unlucky. The person involved somehow dropped their ski at the bottom of the lift and it ran down into the little hollow. When they walked down to collect it the lip just slipped and buried them.

Seems to have been several events like that at Stubai in the last few years. Someone (fully equipped) was pulled out of this unconscious after being buried for 13 minutes. Just goes to show you don't need a "massive shelf of snow above you", and I doubt most of us would think twice before skiing it.

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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@CromCruach,

May I ask how old you are and how many weeks of skiing you have done.

I ask because you mention that you were "involved" in an incident 18 years ago when your friend was killed. Where exactly did this incident happen?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
[quote="CromCruach"][quote="Dave of the Marmottes"]& a book on Avy safety?
At the moment, I am, at most, going to be skiing 1 day a year on my own off-piste(in safe areas!)

just to clarify I'm far from a moutain guide and don't think ill evrt know enough about snow pack, weather effect, terrain effect and snow types that contribute to avalanches.
so for the avoidance of any doubt what exactly is a safe off piste area?
snow conditions     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sorry, the reference to "18 years ago" was not a personal one but taken from the Internet from some article by a skier/journalist with on- and-off-piste experience.

I'm 45 and have been skiing for either 1 or 2 weeks almost every single year since the age of 6(except for last year).

"Safe off-piste area". Admittedly, it all depends on one's definition. I would define "safe" as the deep snow off-piste not being too deep, certainly not above boot level, and the gradient not being too steep. I usually prefer skiing in or near the tracks made by previous skiiers, anyway, so depth is hardly ever an issue. Anyway, I also have only done off-piste areas on my own which I did, decades ago, with a ski-teacher, always following the same path made by the ski-teacher, unless numerous tracks in a less steep part of the off-piste route indicate a perhaps easier route(ski-teacher sometimes like to show off). In the past, I would use normal skis, but, naturally, now I know about wider, off-piste skis, I will use them in future. I also take heed of avalanche-danger signals, usually, but the ski-teachers, in my teenage years, just ignored them, so....
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@CromCruach, top of boot 12"ish???? not too steep 30*ish??? I'm not here to lecture anyone or claim to know loads about avi's but that's steep enough and deep enough to kill you. a slab 12" deep 10 meters crown 10 meters long. that's 30m3 (if my calcs are correct) in a terrain trap on you're own. you wouldn't be found untill the summer.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Well, it's better to be scared than to be overconfident, I guess. I have noticed occasional online mention of avalanches in past off-piste terrain that I have skied on. No idea re measurements, but this is the sort of thing I mean:-

https://qpr2l7.imagenii.com/static2.verbinet.com/image_uploader/photos/a7/large/off-piste-ski-hiver-yves-garneau-39-jpg.jpg?f=q(v=.Cool&auth=8014f1737f048f8c47792c91f1c0c538fc94540c

http://www.lech-zuers.at/website/uploads/images/02/1440x675/herausforderungen-abseits-der-piste-in-lech-zuers-am-arlberg--1-.jpg?v=1

http://www.skiadventure.eu/wp-content/uploads/off-piste-guiding-arlberg.jpg
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I think there is another older Sh thread that you can find using the search function that has alot of the off piste routes in St Anton listed as you initially requested.

While we're on search functions, with the level of 'mountain craft awareness' your posts illustrate, it was likely you were going to be utilising a far more serious kind of search function sooner rather than later. So I'm glad to hear you're doing the 5 day course, it will be money well spent for all. I only wish I could attend the first day myself... Wink

Safe skiing dude!!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
This is a great description of a trip exploring many of the Arlberg off piste routes :

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=74877

More info here :
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=135273

Enjoy!!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
If you really want to get off Piste in Arlberg

You need to do some hiking Lechtalen Alp

Arlberg
Dawin

http://www.skitours-paradise.com/tour/lechtaler_alpen/arlberg/bergleskopf
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
clarky999 wrote:
@CromCruach, you are correct that offpiste skiing can be done very safely, but only if you know how to evaluate and mitigate the risks - and you are clearly demonstrating you don't have the slightest concept of the processes involved.

The very fact of the 'random' (hard to predict is more accurate) nature is why just going off on any old route you've done before without thought as to why particularly zones/aspects/altitudes are hazardous on that day or even hour is not a good idea.

Equally it is precisely the not so extreme moderate slopes of 30-40° degrees that are most likely to slide, and you only need one little pocket in the wrong place to go to kill you.

I believe this is Cervinia, and it looks like spring conditions (though also a bit of a freak!):



Someone died in this little pocket right next to the lifts at Stubai 3 years ago:



Again, it is perfectly possible for you as a holiday skier to safely ski offpiste solo, but rather than just worrying about route navigation you need to educate yourself on terrain management and snow science/avalanche mechanics so you know WHY routes are safe or otherwise and can actually make a considered judgement on the risks you are taking.

Start here: https://utahavalanchecenter.org/tutorials

Then read this (borrow it form a library if you don't want to fall foul of the dastardly coven of avalanche education authors): https://www.amazon.com/Staying-Alive-Avalanche-Terrain-Tremper/dp/1594850844?tag=amz07b-21


Just reading the Bruce Temper book. It's fascinating. Thanks for the suggestion of the Utah resource. I'll have a look at that as well.

(I want to start skiing off piste, but want to be able to make informed judgements about the safety of routes and areas before I set off. It's interesting to me that the OP feels that having skied a route previously and the presence of other tracks are an indication that it's safe - most avalanche incidents I've read about note that others had skied the route already that day.)
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