 Poster: A snowHead
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I should be grateful for some advice. I purchased a pair of 177 K2 Coomba skis, which are 114 mm under foot and have a 23 m radius, in the hope of improving my off-piste capabilities. I have previously been skiing on a pair 166 Solomon BBR 8.9s, which are 88 mm under foot and have 11.5 m radius. The Coombas provide a fantastic amount of float and are very light in comparison to the BBRs. However, while I am finding it easier to ski long, sweeping turns in powder with the Coombas, and can still to do fairly quick edge to edge transitions on piste, I am finding it harder to make tight turns on steeper, off-piste slopes and tracks. Is this to be expected due to the shape and/or length of the ski or is it more likely to be a case of my poor technique? If it is the former, can you please advise what type/length of ski might suit me better? Otherwise, can you possibly suggest what I might be doing wrong? I am 5’ 6” and weigh 10 ½ stone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Mike S,
I think it is more technical.
Short turns in powder are more about pivoting the ski than "carving" it using the shape/radius.
The usual reason why people struggle to get skis round quickly in the powder is that they have their weight to far back rather than centred as a result they have to force the skis round.
I'd suggest the following:
1. find a fairly gentle powder field and set off in a straight line
2. flex and extend your legs without trying to turn, try to get into an easy unhurried rhythm and stay centred, weight on the balls/centre of your feet not the heels
3. when you are comfortable, as you extend push your tails round into a turn - you are trying to get a feel for how effortless the unweighted push is
4. link turns by flexing after the push ready to extend again and make a second turn
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks @jedster for your quick reply and advice. Good to know that it's not the equipment at fault. I'll try your suggestions and persevere.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Mike S, I’m 6’ and the same weight as you, I ski on 184-190cm skis with 112-148 underfoot. My easiest turning skis in powder/trees are the biggest 190cm 148mm waist skis, because they have full reverse camber, with only a 40cm running edge under foot. This means I can turn them with my ankles in powder, and perform multiple 360 spins on piste without effort.
I was checking for the profile of the 114mm Comba and it appears to be a traditional camber with rocker, which as you mention is great for all mountain and gentle turns in powder. The more extreme the reverse camber you have the easier they ski will be to turn in powder.
By powder, I mean you are skiing in the soft snow layer, not on the base underneath.
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@jedster, +1. Exactly what Husky Dave had me doing on the PSB this year and it worked like a dream.
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@PowderAdict, 148mm under foot and 40cm effective edge? I am intrigued. What ski is that?
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@SnowPenguin, DPS Spoon
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| altis wrote: |
| Nothing to do with radius of the skis: ... |
 Stamp on one foot like that in the powder I'm interested in and you'll find something unhelpful happens.
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Thanks to you all for your further input. I think that the 'pivot' is the first thing that I need to master before I progress to the 'pedal hop'. However, I appreciate the useful and interesting video. I have read about the DPS Spoons. They look intriguing and the design principle sounds logical. I shall have to see if I can give them a go. I'll try to keep out of @Philwig's way! Need to get out and hit the powder this morning 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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(I meant: your foot will sink and you will fall over)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I was just using the video to demonstrate that it is perfectly possible to make your skis turn with a radius shorter than their design. Those ancient skis were pretty straight.
On very easy gradient powder ski the fall line while bouncing up and down. Try to keep the bounces slow and even. Then introduce turning by twisting your upper body on the up-bounce. On the down-bounce tighten your core to unwind the twist - exactly as in the video above. Some people call this anticipating the turn.
Timing and balance is everything so practice on an easy gradient first. It’s hard work maintaining the bounce but this gets easier with steeper ground as the slope helps out. In really steep powder the sensation is one of cloud surfing - not that I’ve ever tried that but that’s what I imagine it’s like.
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| Quote: |
On very easy gradient powder ski the fall line while bouncing up and down. Try to keep the bounces slow and even. Then introduce turning by twisting your upper body on the up-bounce. On the down-bounce tighten your core to unwind the twist - exactly as in the video above. Some people call this anticipating the turn.
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+1 that is what I was saying, point about anticipation is a useful addition.
the other thing I have told people that has been an "aha!" relates to the "slow and even". Once you begin to get a feel for it, try waiting that fraction of a second longer than you think you should at the end of the turn when you are flexed before extending. It is the antithesis of forcing the skis around. Seems to really help getting the effortless tempo.
Another thing that a good friend suggested to me which I find very helpful is that when you are in tight terrain (trees, bushes, gullies etc) stay low and flexed between turns (he calls it the "ready position"). It means you are always able to extend and turn in an instant if you need to.
Actually think this thread covers nearly all the key points I know about skiing powder.
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You know it makes sense.
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I found this morning that Skiing in steep, tight trees magically makes the skis turn a bit tighter when needed 
If you are in deepish snow try pushing down through both heels in the bottom of the turn, resisting the forces that build up as you follow the arc of the turn. This will bend the skis more, tightening the turn. It also gives you a solid platform at the end of the turn you can use to start the next turn, either by bouncing up a little or by pulling your feet up. When your skis are light in the transition you can then point / twist them in to the new turn, creating as much of a steering angle as you need to shape the next turn. Or just head to the nearest tight trees and throw yourself in...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's a bit of both but if you're on Coombas it ain't the skis.
I'm really not sure about consciously trying to bounce. The "bounce" in modern modern powder skiing IMV is a reaction to the terrain and the kick from the skis rather than consciously heaving oneself about in contrast to old skool skiing on inappropriately skinny skiing where the bounce was part and parcel of being able to porpoise the skis to make those anal Powder 8s. Put it like this watch someone like McConkey or Morrison or Rahlves skiing powder and see how much bouncing they are doing (pillow lines excepted).
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
Agreed but if we are talking about learning to get the feel and realise what it is like not to have to force the skis then it is a helpful progression in my experience
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm I think the point in powder is to be planing - which means you need to be moving at a certain lick dependent on snow depth, consistency and gradient. If you are travelling below that speed you are "anchored" which is where the bounce comes in I think to mobilise the skis. But I think it should only be a transitional phase in skill acquisition and not a final technique IMV.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| I'm really not sure about consciously trying to bounce. |
If you're skiing a more open pitch I'd agree, but for a tighter line (through choice, or through trees) then releasing the pressure at the end of the turn to allow you to more easily create a steering angle in to the next turn is a good thing, surely? Releasing that pressure can be done by pulling the feet up or by a little pop off the platform from the previous turn. Perhaps a matter of semantics whether you'd call that a bounce or not, but I'm not talking about an exaggerated and continuous up-unweighting to create old school short radius 'powder 8' turns.
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Yeah I don't think of that as a bounce. You obviously have to do the equivalent of edge change which if I think at all I think of as banking one way then banking another. And that's where I fail talking about skiing because it's hard to describe what that is because in true powder its a weightless experience and the crack cocaine of the ski world.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yep - I think we are talking about the same thing. The bounce comes from releasing the flex (and the pressure on the skis) rather than flinging your upper body upwards. As you say Dave, when you are travelling fast enough to plane you can just bank over but I think people who are struggling to get the skis around aren’t at that point yet.
Btw perhaps one other relevant tactic when it gets steeper and you are setting off: making a slight turn AWAY from the fall line to give yourself some steering angle to compress against so that you can then release more pressure to carry you all the way through the fall line when you commit to the first proper turn.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Yeah I don't think of that as a bounce. You obviously have to do the equivalent of edge change which if I think at all I think of as banking one way then banking another. |
This might be a semantic difference again, but I'm hesitant to talk about banking as (1) it's easy to overdo it and end up with too much weight on the inside ski; and (2) I think just banking from one side to another makes it more difficult to influence the shape of the turn, which is what the OP asked about. Obviously we have to tip the skis from one side to another as we transition from one turn to another, but if we rely mainly on banking we are miss out on using the other steering elements of twisting / steering the skis and actively bending the skis. What I mean is probably best illustrated with a photo sequence:
First 2 frames show build up of pressure at the end of the turn (getting deeper in the snow).
Frames 3 and 4 show a release of that pressure, although not a pronounced "up" (so no "bounce")
Between frames 4 and 5 the skis are light (they come up to the top of the snow) and they are steered slightly to start the new turn (a steering angle is created by twisting the skis in to a new direction)
Frames 6 onwards involve another build up of pressure as the skis follow the turn, increasingly bending to tighten the turn, enabling a release of pressure to start the new turn.
The turn is a bit more active than just banking from one side to another to create the new turn, using the range of steering elements to shape the turn.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Btw perhaps one other relevant tactic when it gets steeper and you are setting off: making a slight turn AWAY from the fall line to give yourself some steering angle to compress against so that you can then release more pressure to carry you all the way through the fall line when you commit to the first proper turn. |
Yes, and not just for the first turn. Sometimes I do that if it's steep and I need a tight turn, so a little 'punch' at the end of the turn gives you something more to work with as you start the next turn. Was doing that a lot today.
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@rob@rar, Ah but you've just illustrated with a pic of someone in a wide open powder field who should be maching it (not in the tight squirrelly trees we were talking about
Plus the LeMaster style of analysis is pretty useless for powder unless we draw in what is happening below the snow on the photo.
Not that you are wrong of course. I just think that rather than being edged my skis are banked against the snow - I unconsiously perform some wizardry and they are banked in a different direction. Depending on context that wizardry might be all sorts of things from a heft round a solid pole plant to a powder carve with pivots, slarves, slashes in-between.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| I just think that rather than being edged my skis are banked against the snow |
Yes, absolutely, but as well as being banked they also bend. The more we influence how much they are banked (although I confess to an aversion to that term) and how much they bend the better able we are to influence how tight the radius of the turn is.
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| I unconsiously perform some wizardry and they are banked in a different direction. Depending on context that wizardry might be all sorts of things from a heft round a solid pole plant to a powder carve with pivots, slarves, slashes in-between. |
Yes, that's what I trying to get at, deconstructing the 'wizardry'. We can do more at transition than just bank, and then we can do more around the rest of the turn than just stick with the radius of the banked ski. If you want to tighten a turn you can change the blend of rotation, tipping / banking and influence the pressure. I'm certain the Coombas will make a tighter radius by bending them a bit more in the turn, and by adding more steering angle at the start of the turn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@kitenski, many thanks for the photographic skills
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm pleased to report that following your advice that I got on much better today. This was both in regard to pivoting my skis and achieving some jump turns. I wasn't skiing in the lightest of powder but this seemed to help me, as I didn't feel that my weight distribution was quite so critical as in the really light, soft powder. I still struggled a bit on some steep, narrow tracks, where I still had difficulty getting in enough quick turns to take the edge off my speed. However, I managed to ski down from Meribel to Brides les Bains, through (and over!) the trees, which was fun. Thank you for your further discussion and insight on the techniques. I think that I have already discovered that as @jedster suggests that 'starting off by making a slight turn away from the fall line', on the steeper slopes, and staying 'low and flexed' in tight terrain certainly helps. I also believe that rob@rar's observation that 'trees magically make skis turn a little bit tighter' and @Dave of the Marmottes 'unconciously performed wizardry' do come into play. The Force be with you! 
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You know it makes sense.
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@Mike S, out of interest, if you were to imagine a similiar tight line on the piste, on the same skis could you control your speed with making quick turns??
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@kitenski No, probably not on the Coombas. No problem with my BBRs or 160 K2 Chargers. The Coombas are 177 and seemed almost as long as the width of the tracks. I didn't feel able to kick my heels around to brake before starting the next turn - if that makes sense!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Mike S, I just do lots of little semi pivot turns on tight tracks, even on long fat skis it scrubs off a fair bit of speed. Plus using the bumps on the terrain to push against helps.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thank you @Scarpa for your advice. I think that a more controlled pivot turn is something that I need to practice.
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