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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
My body's 48, my head's early twenties.Experienced gym user, from years gone by, thought it's be good to improve cardio, strengthen core and legs before skiing this year.

Squatting with light weights, watching my form, added another 10KG's and ping, my lower back went. I'm on Voltorol, Ibuprofen, hot water bottles and a massage chair. Skiing in under 4 weeks, and hoping it'll mend.

Any advice greatlly appreciated Happy
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@ralphster, osteopath or sports physio might get you mended sooner.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@ralphster, if it were me, I would go see a McTimonney chiropractor.

I did ďsomethingĒ to my back 8 days before going skiing. I wasnít able to drive or walk when I did it and obviously failed to play hockey the following day, saw he Doctor on the Monday who just offered pain killers (after checking wasnít anything he do do anything with). I asked him anything it chiropractors and was told the NHS donít recommend them but that his wife saw xxxx (his wife used to play for same hockey team I was playing for). Saw her on the Wednesday was skiing on the Saturday afternoon and the rest of the week with no issues.
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Got a physio house visit tomorrow night so hoping it'll help
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
If you think its muscular also go with local hot & cold treatment (alternating 10 mins if each).

Keep with the anti inflamatories. Get the max strength you can buy. But watch out about overdosing if using Voltarol and Ibuprofin at the same time.

And see physio asap.
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Thanks I will need to Google McTimonney Happy
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Personally, both chiropractic (e.g. McTimoney) and osteopathy come with baggage so I would avoid on principle.

A good sports physio, and ruling out any damage you might have done, e.g. to disks, would seem the sensible way forward to me.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
As someone who has battled back problems most of my life, this would be my advice:

- See an Osteopath who does adjustments/alignments...some just connect those pads that give a gentle current into the tender area (like a TENS machine) and piddle about for 45 mins.
- Only see a Chiropractor if you don't get sucked into their regime ie. Assessment/X Rays/Endless follow up appointments over the next few weeks and maintenance appointments for the rest of your life.
- If you see a Physio, try and find one that does Acupuncture/Dry Needling
- Check out to see if there is a good Physical Therapist (different to a Physio), especially one that is qualified in myofascial release/trigger point therapy.
- Sensible use of anti-infamitories
- Don't do any gym work that hurts - listen to your body. Your body takes time to heal, but try to keep gentle training going....possibly swimming.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 5-12-17 13:17; edited 1 time in total
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Thanks Old Fartbag. Forgot about swimming, might try that tonight.
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ralphster wrote:
Thanks Old Fartbag. Forgot about swimming, might try that tonight.

NB. Go easy....and remember that Freestyle/Front Crawl is often less sore on the back, than Breast Stroke.

Good luck....and you should be fine, if you don't over do it and give the inflammation in your back time to settle. When you've got yourself fit, it's very hard to watch your gains drain away, so the temptation is to push harder than is wise. Been there and got the T-Shirt.
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@under a new name, I agree about Chiropractors (it's not their technique I object to, but their business model - they can turn you into a "Crunch Junkie").

What baggage comes from Osteopathy, as they try to equip you with the tools to keep yourself healthy (in the same way that Physios do), so you don't become reliant on them to avoid pain?.....the opposite of Chiropractors.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 5-12-17 14:02; edited 1 time in total
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@ralphster, Been there, done that, got far too many T-shirts. I sympathise, I really do.

In my experience I'd suggest the following:
1. While your back is in spasm almost any movement will hurt like crazy. Lie down as much as possible for as long as it takes for the spasm to ease - about two days in my all-too-considerable experience. For years I followed the medical advice of 'keep moving' and I found that it was great advice, but only after the spasm goes. In the meantime, relax...
2. Use hot water bottles, tens machines, hot/cold etc. as you like. It doesn't make any difference, but it might keep you entertained.
3. Take the painkillers. Loads of them. Do NOT think that just because you can do without them then you can stop taking them. Once the spasm has eased then movement is good and being pain-free encourages you to move more.
4. Physios can definitely help to get things moving after a few days. Not much they can do until the spasm eases.
5. Chiropractors/osteopaths - Up to you, but personally I'd very strongly advise against. I'm not a fan of them anyway (a bunch of charlatans), but in this instance, the last thing you want is someone trying to manipulate joints. A friend went to see one for a similar back problem and ended up in more pain and with sciatica too.
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Body is 59, mind 18.
I did a fairly hard mtb ride on Thursday and on Friday pushed myself too hard (idiot) walking up a hill. Obviously I must have tweaked something without realising 'cos when I got home my back went into spasm with a vengeance!
I've 'popped things in my back before and for me a Chiropractor has done the trick but I only resort to that when I have to.
In this instance a mountain of Ibuprofen and plenty of rest did the trick and I was able to go for a gentle ride yesterday. Very Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've got one of those Homedics Shiatsu chairs in the ofice at the moment, not sure it'll do me any good, but entertaining and takes my mind off it. I did manage a 7 mile round walk/commute to work yesterday. Once I'm moving it's sort of ok, although any forward movement of the hips and I can feel it pinch. Serves me right trying to keep up with the younguns in the gym.

I tried a BodyPump class the other night, only bloke in there and I wasn't being outdone by the girl next to me with the weight she put on the bar......until I had to lift the bug above my head more than 20 times. Walked out, done in and with my tail between my legs Laughing
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@foxtrotzulu, Not wishing to be confrontational, but a few points:
- Osteopaths and Chiropractors are not the same and have very different philosophies.
- The training involved is considerable....so certainly not "Quacks"
- I have yet to be made worse by an Osteopath....but I go to a good one

Have you had a bad experience from an Osteopath, or are you going from anecdotal evidence?

I have actually been made worse by a Physio, who came with a good reputation...it's finding what works for you and finding someone who gets to know your own particular physiological quirks.

Be wary of anyone who keeps telling you they will get you better, if you don't see decent improvement after a few weeks and the pain lasts more than 6 months. Chances are, there is an underlying chronic problem, that requires a scan and proper medical intervention.

Sorry, this is not meant to be giving a lecture, but highlighting some thoughts that have been hard learned over 40 years....and culminated in Back Surgery.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 5-12-17 16:53; edited 1 time in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
a huge + 1 for a good McTimonney chiropractor - mine does wonders for me. Interestingly, I've learnt thru experience that I only ever have to see her when I have extended periods away from the gym. I have an issue with tilting my pelvis and as soon as I feel its out of alignment and book in straight away.
I've also had good success with spike mats - sorry the link is from our web site but there are plenty of others on the market.
https://www.mad-hq.com/product/yoga-mad-acupressure-bed-nails-aubergine
The Bed of Nails are used to induce a state of deep relaxation and dissolve tension - just lay on it and while being rather uncomfortable (painful) for the few minutes the rest of the time is so relaxing that I frequently fall asleep.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Old Fartbag,
Quote:

Not wishing to be confrontational, but a few points:
- Osteopaths and Chiropractors are not the same and have very different philosophies.
- The training involved is considerable....so certainly not "Quacks"
- I have yet to be made worse by an Osteopath....but I go to a good one

Have you had a bad experience from an Osteopath, or are you going from anecdotal evidence?


Also not wishing to be confrontational and, up to a point, I agree that it can be a question of 'what works for you'. I say 'up to a point' because most ailments get better of their own accord and it's very hard to know what it was that made you better unless you were somehow able to conduct your randomised control trial.

Osteopaths and chiropractors do indeed have different philosophies, but what they have in common is that neither of them seem to be grounded in evidence-based science. Have a look at this page... http://osteodoc.com/philosophy/


Quote:

- The training involved is considerable....so certainly not "Quacks"

The amount of training and the degree of quackery are completely unrelated. Homeopathy? Naturopathy?

I've never had a bad experience from a chiropractor, so I'm not going on anecdotal evidence. I tend to rely on the results of clinical trials and make my own judgements based upon the 'philosophy' of a treatment. Take cranial osteopathy as an example. The NHS state "Our results demonstrate, consistently with those of previous reviews, that methodologically strong evidence on the reliability of diagnostic procedures and the efficacy of techniques and therapeutic strategies in cranial osteopathy is almost non-existent". Then read about the philosophy and ask yourself if it makes sense. Can you feel the alleged pulsations (10-14 per minute) within your brain with your fingertips and can you detect abnormalities in the flows? No? Do you think someone else can, even if medical scanners cannot? Personally, I can't and it doesn't make much sense to me, so cranial osteopathy is not going to be on my list of treatments.

Now, I fully understand that this is just a personal perspective. I 'believe' in science and try to take a logical and scientific approach wherever I can. Some people get more comfort out of less scientific treatments and appreciate approaches that are more grounded in faith than evidence and that's entirely their prerogative.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
foxtrotzulu wrote:
I say 'up to a point' because most ailments get better of their own accord and it's very hard to know what it was that made you better unless you were somehow able to conduct your randomised control trial.

Some people get more comfort out of less scientific treatments and appreciate approaches that are more grounded in faith than evidence and that's entirely their prerogative.


I totally agree. IMO rest, painkillers, careful exercise and common sense are much more cost-effective!
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ralphster wrote:
My body's 48, my head's early twenties.Experienced gym user, from years gone by, thought it's be good to improve cardio, strengthen core and legs before skiing this year.

Squatting with light weights, watching my form, added another 10KG's and ping, my lower back went. I'm on Voltorol, Ibuprofen, hot water bottles and a massage chair. Skiing in under 4 weeks, and hoping it'll mend.

Any advice greatlly appreciated Happy


Good luck! You should have enough time to recover. Forget the weights, run a few miles or do some swimming.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@jellylegs, at 48 a well planned weights lifting regime should be an important and significant part of any training program (once injury free).
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@Old Fartbag, what FTZ said.

Further, Iíd ** run as far and fast as I could from any physio offering nonsense* such as acupuncture or needling.

* just my opinion of course, and the lack of any plausible mechanism of treatment, and the total lack of any evidence from well designed trials supporting any effect beyond placebo.

** you do what you like, of course. Not want8ng to provoke argument or thread drift, just my opinion.
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Pleas don't shoot me downralphster, but a similar thing happened to me when I went back to the gym after a few months off.

Yes, it was painful to the point of not being able to walk, but after a few days the pain subsided enough for me to go back to the gym

(No pain no gain)

and yes my back went ping again, but this time what ever was out of place went back into place..........

Since then, to avoid it happening again, I try and incorporate a few of the lesser used gym machines that focus on back and core to strengthen and keep supple these areas

I am not saying this method will work for you, I am saying don't panic just yet with 4 weeks to go.
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under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, what FTZ said.

Further, Iíd ** run as far and fast as I could from any physio offering nonsense* such as acupuncture or needling.

* just my opinion of course, and the lack of any plausible mechanism of treatment, and the total lack of any evidence from well designed trials supporting any effect beyond placebo.

** you do what you like, of course. Not want8ng to provoke argument or thread drift, just my opinion.

I think there is a lot of misconceptions floating about, regarding some of this:

Osteopathy is classed as a primary healthcare profession, which means that osteopaths can form diagnoses....and Doctors are increasingly prepared to make referrals to them.

Chiropractic is listed under NHS choices and is used by elite athletes, from tennis players, skiers and golfers (it has been estimated that 90% of world class Athletes use Chiropratic on a regular basis). Doctors are inclined to be sceptical and reluctant to make referrals.

Acupuncture is also listed under NHS choices....but is more controversial. It works for some and not for others.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 5-12-17 20:08; edited 1 time in total
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ralphster wrote:
My body's 48, my head's early twenties.Experienced gym user, from years gone by, thought it's be good to improve cardio, strengthen core and legs before skiing this year.

Squatting with light weights, watching my form, added another 10KG's and ping, my lower back went. I'm on Voltorol, Ibuprofen, hot water bottles and a massage chair. Skiing in under 4 weeks, and hoping it'll mend.

Any advice greatlly appreciated Happy


My experience (so not applicable to all) is that when my back has gone into spasm it seems to be protecting it from me doing further damage - if that makes sense?

Because the spasm is severe, pretty much the only thing you can do is heat / ibrupofen.

But - again, just my experience - in a week or so you should be ok.

You said you added another 10kg and it went ping? Well it sounds like you know what not to do - concentrate on some good stretching and strengthening your core ahead of the trip. You might not be ripping it up as much as you want, but at least you will get on the snow.


n.b. I once went into spasm in the changing rooms of the Lagon swimming pool in Tignes ! No last day for me and walking about like a half shut knife til I got home Madeye-Smiley Madeye-Smiley
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@Old Fartbag,

When you say that osteopathy is Ďclassed as a primary healthcare professioní, can you clarify. What exactly does that mean? I know that osteopaths consider themselves as a primary healthcare profession (probably because I read the same website as you), but I canít find any evidence to support it or even to define what the phrase actually means. Iím pretty sure the NHS doesnít regard it as a primary healthcare profession. It isnít widely available on the NHS.

Chiropractic may be listed on NHS choices. But then so is homeopathy. The fact that it is used by elite athletes, tennis players etc. means absolutely nothing Iím afraid.

Acupuncture is probably no more controversial than the other two. A little low grade evidence of some efficacy, but thatís about it. Personally, Iím more inclined to have a little faith in some acupuncture than the other two.

Returning to the matter in hand, there is some limited evidence that spinal manipulative therapy (whether performed by a physio, osteo, chiro, a masseur or the pet dog has some efficacy in cases of chronic back pain. The OP has acute back pain, not chronic.
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Maybe one thing we can agree on is that, once the initial episode has passed, Pilates or similar exercises can help to prevent recurrence.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@ralphster, Forgot to say that it should probably be OK in four weeks. After an episode my back is generally Ok in movement, but not so good sitting still.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@ralphster, My wife's back goes into severe spasm maybe once every two years. One time it was so bad we had to call the paramedics out. She's found through experience that when it does go into a bad spasm, pretty much the only thing that relieves/cures it, is Diazepam; as it relaxes the muscles. I'm not suggesting for one moment that rest and ibuprofen won't sort out your problem; I'm just saying that if it's really bad, Diazepam could help.

I did similar to you earlier this year. I went nuts trying to get fitter for my first SH Bash and kicked off sciatica. I can't take Ibuprofen because of a history of ulcers. Regular ice packs to my back, liberal amounts of Voltarol and resting as much as possible seems to have cured it for now. The main thing is I can ski ok. Well, by "ski" I mean - I throw myself down the CF.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Awdbugga wrote:
@ralphster, My wife's back goes into severe spasm maybe once every two years. One time it was so bad we had to call the paramedics out. She's found through experience that when it does go into a bad spasm, pretty much the only thing that relieves/cures it, is Diazepam; as it relaxes the muscles. I'm not suggesting for one moment that rest and ibuprofen won't sort out your problem; I'm just saying that if it's really bad, Diazepam could help.

Like you, my mind is writing cheques that my body can't cash. I did similar to you earlier this year. I went nuts trying to get fitter for my first SH Bash and kicked off sciatica. I can't take Ibuprofen because of a history of ulcers. Regular ice packs to my back, liberal amounts of Voltarol and resting as much as possible seems to have cured it for now. The main thing is I can ski ok. Well, by "ski" I mean - I throw myself down the CF.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@Old Fartbag,

When you say that osteopathy is Ďclassed as a primary healthcare professioní, can you clarify.


What I mean, is that they are considered mainstream and competent/qualified enough to be a first point of contact and can make a diagnosis, in the way a General Practitioner or Nurse Practitioner can. Can I definitely prove it to your satisfaction.....probably not.

Once the spasm has eased, manipulation can allow the area to heal more quickly. I'm speaking as someone who has tried Chiro, Osteo, Acupuncture, Physio, Physical T, Bowen Technique and even Faith Healing and Bach Flower Remedies. I have my views on all of them (no sh-t Shirlock), with the more way out ones doing eff all.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Old Fartbag, I know we are drifting this thread rather shamelessly, but I still donít understand what you mean when you say that osteos are considered competent/qualified to make a diagnosis. Anyone can make a diagnosis, itís perhaps just a question of whether that diagnosis will be accepted by others / by the NHS. Will drugs be prescribed or tests conducted on the basis of an osteoís diagnosis without a GP being involved? Who exactly considers them competent enough? Presumably itís written down somewhere.

Quote:

Once the spasm has eased, manipulation can allow the area to heal more quickly. I'm speaking as someone who has tried Chiro, Osteo, Acupuncture, Physio, Physical T, Bowen Technique and even Faith Healing and Bach Flower Remedies.
Thatís an awful lot of woo-woo poo-poo in one sentence! Iím impressed. Very Happy Seriously though, whatever works for you. Iíve got some magic beans if youíre interested Very Happy
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@foxtrotzulu, no evidence for acupuncture...

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/

@Old Fartbag, in the US, and only there, osteopaths can train using a modified version of a real medical degree that includes osteopathy, and there they can, in some states, prescribe.

Feck knows why.
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@under a new name, I always thought that Cochrane was mildly more positive than SBM on the subject of acupuncture but it seems I was wrong. 😀

As you say, no evidence for acupuncture. At least itís relatively harmless.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@foxtrotzulu, I don't know how else to put it. Their qualification is recognized as sufficient to make a referral to a GP. Further clarification will require asking an Osteopath. They cannot write proscriptions.

Their training is extensive: "An osteopath trained in the UK will have undertaken a 4 or 5 year degree ending in a BSc (Hons), BOst or similar (or a masters degree). These degrees concentrate on anatomy and physiology of the human body and include a large element (over 1000 hours) of practical work and clinical skills.
http://www.healthcentre.org.uk/osteopaths/osteopath-who-can-be.html

I also apologize to the OP for the thread drift - but it is kind of relevant.
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@ralphster, hope the back recovers soon! Once itís better Pilates is quite good for strengthening the supporting muscles around the back and teaches good form. I also do a body pump class for an all over work out as well as plyometric/cardio stuff for fitness. Important to ease into it to avoid trouble which is challenging for the competitive spirit!
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My late father-in-law was an Osteopath (and Podiatrist). It is a properly regulated profession, and a legally protected title / He practised spinal manipulation and physical therapy. Spinal manipulation is included in the NICE guidlines for lower back pain and sciatica.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Old Fartbag wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, I don't know how else to put it. Their qualification is recognized as sufficient to make a referral to a GP. Further clarification will require asking an Osteopath. They cannot write proscriptions.

Their training is extensive: "An osteopath trained in the UK will have undertaken a 4 or 5 year degree ending in a BSc (Hons), BOst or similar (or a masters degree). These degrees concentrate on anatomy and physiology of the human body and include a large element (over 1000 hours) of practical work and clinical skills.
http://www.healthcentre.org.uk/osteopaths/osteopath-who-can-be.html

I also apologize to the OP for the thread drift - but it is kind of relevant.

As ever, apologies for the thread drift, but weíre both enjoying this 😀

You say that their qualification is Ďsufficient to make a referral to a GP.í Forgive me for pointing it out, but you donít need a referral to a GP. Thatís sort of the point of a GP. Anyone can make a referral to a GP. It goes like this. ďYouíre looking a bit pants. Why donít you go and see a doctor?Ē ...... ďMmmm. Good idea, I think I willĒ.

Yes, Osteopaths have lots of training, but so what? Homeopaths have lots of training too. Iím not arguing that they havenít been trained. The question is trained in what? And is that training of any worth? The General Osteopathy Council lists 11 places to study osteopathy in the U.K. Seven of those are osteopathy colleges. The remaining four are universities. Two have closed their courses (I suspect as a result of the government crackdown on nonsense degrees and a massive drop in numbers) and the other two are not exactly first or second division. Iím not entirely sure that you can even get student finance for osteopathy degrees any more.
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@foxtrotzulu, Their training is such, that any such referral will be taken more seriously than "Mi mum says I have Necrotizing Fibromyalgia, or possibly Anal Glaucoma." Toofy Grin
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Lose weight.

Do yoga.

Eliminate salt.
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