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Edge angles

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I think this thread contains the best and worst of advice.

Best - technical explanation of what base and edge angles achieve.
Worst - creating a fear that it makes a huge hill of beans of difference to the average developing skier
If you ski skis and you feel you are struggling for grip or something is off - the tune may be the factor, in which case you look at it.
Most days however in most skiing the average skier would be hard pushed to know what angles they are running and it probably wouldn't make much difference. I'm only really motivated to look at my edges when I've hit something or am conspicuously struggling for grip. If I do they get a bog standard 88 (which is what my file guide says too)
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Got to say that I’m confused why the angle given on the guide is apparently the ‘wrong’ way of writing it. Seems simple to me to refer to side edge as 88 and base as 1 than to say 2, 1 and leave ambiguity as to what that actually means. Particularly as file guides for edges all seem to be stated as 87 or 89 or similar. Before I read this thread I thought I was clear on what edge I ran, but I’ve had to run it through in my mind a few tones now! Laughing
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
^ and the confusion doesn't help ease the "fear that it makes a huge hill of beans of difference to the average developing skier". One of the main reasons (IMO) that @Awdbugga opened this thread in the first place was the fear that a 90 degree angle compared to an 89 degree might make a big difference to him. Hopefully, he's now reassured it won't - at least until he's reached the level where he's throwing himself down the Swiss Wall Toofy Grin
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MikeM wrote:
at least until he's reached the level where he's throwing himself down the Swiss Wall Toofy Grin


You don’t carve down the Swiss wall?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Themasterpiece wrote:
MikeM wrote:
at least until he's reached the level where he's throwing himself down the Swiss Wall Toofy Grin


You don’t carve down the Swiss wall?


Bugg*r that... I won't go near the damn thing these days, I've gotten far too old and sensible. Much prefer to just take the lift down and watch everyone else make their way down... one way or the other.. Toofy Grin
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MikeM wrote:
^ and the confusion doesn't help ease the "fear that it makes a huge hill of beans of difference to the average developing skier". One of the main reasons (IMO) that @Awdbugga opened this thread in the first place was the fear that a 90 degree angle compared to an 89 degree might make a big difference to him. Hopefully, he's now reassured it won't - at least until he's reached the level where he's throwing himself down the Swiss Wall Toofy Grin


You're right about my lack of knowledge based fear about 90 versus 89. Given the tuners only go from 85 to 90 a mere six degree difference; I was unsure if a change of even 1 degree; which equates to a 17% difference within the range variance of the tuning tool would make a noticeable difference. At my level, probably not. Although I'm glad some here think it amusing that I might enjoy one of the "sensations" of skiing on ice with skis with less edge. Twisted Evil Very Happy

As to the Swiss Wall; I can manage a Swiss Roll and that's about it. I've already dropped myself in it big time on here by saying my goal in Arabba is to hopefully have a crack at Marmolada on my last day there; naively forgetting the effect that altitude has; that I've only ever skied in the CF never in the mountains; and also overlooking the fact it's one hell of a loooong red run. The blind optimism of a newbie laid bare for all to see. rolling eyes Puzzled
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I'd be interested to hear if any Snowboarders have tried putting a sharper edge through the rear contact point to help with carving on firm conditions; as a surfer I'm talking "roundhouse cutback" type carves here. Directional board of course.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Awdbugga, by the last day you won't notice the altitude. You won't necessary be acclimatised, but you'll be used to skiing at altitude. You'll also be amazed how your skiing improves when the runs are longer than a minute Wink
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@MikeM, just be aware that if you try 87 degrees you may notice that the skis are a bit less forgivable, if you engage the tips they tend to grab quite decisively. Some people like that feeling of instant control, some others set the ends of the ski at 88 and have it 87 in the middle. Some detune the tips and tails (very slight blunting with a rubber gummi stone). I find that on rockered skis I can never get the ends quite as sharp as the middle of the ski so in effect that happens naturally.
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SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
Got to say that I’m confused why the angle given on the guide is apparently the ‘wrong’ way of writing it. Seems simple to me to refer to side edge as 88 and base as 1 than to say 2, 1 and leave ambiguity as to what that actually means. Particularly as file guides for edges all seem to be stated as 87 or 89 or similar.
This might get complicated but I'm going to give it a go anyway. Laughing

It's not wrong as long as you are as clear as you have suggested. The problem comes because: a) most people are not that specific/knowledgeable b) most ski servicing machines can't produce it.

For example, Joe Punter walks into an average ski shop and says "My skis don't have much grip. I've heard that an 88 degree edge angle is good, can you put that on my skis, please?". Seems reasonable enough, right?

Trouble is, that 88 degree angle is ambiguous. It could mean 88 Side Angle measured from the Horizontal or it could mean 88 degree Internal (at the tip). If the tech assumes the latter, it can be created in different ways. It could be 0 Base, 88 Side (0,2) or 1 Base, 87 Side (1,3) or any combination in-between. It's further complicated by the fact that most ski service machines can't produce anything other than a 0 degree Base Angle anyway. Therefore, if you have a full service with a base grind, you're going to end up with the 0,2 option.

The difference in characteristics between 0,2 and 1,3 are more than noticeable, even to a novice skier. The 0,2 engages the edge immediately you put any tilt on the ski. This may initially make the ski feel grippy because the edge engages early but because the edge is also sharper than normal (let's assume normal is 90 degrees internal) it's more likely to feel snatchy, twitchy or hooky, even on a flat path. i.e. It has TOO MUCH grip. If you're a better skier using higher edge angles, it will break away at a lower inclination angle and probably very suddenly, destroying your confidence.

The 1,3 on the other hand will likely feel smooth, progressive and grippy with a higher threshold before it breaks away. It may also be too grippy if your skill level isn't up to it but it will be much more manageable than the 0,2 version. But most ski machines can't produce 1,3 so it's moot, it has to be done by hand. To the novice skier, these differences may be no more than, "I like this ski, it's easy to manage" or "I don't like this ski, it's hard to control" but it's not the ski, it's the edge tune.

IME, the standard setting in most French ski shops is 0,0. 90 degrees internal but not offset from the base like the most common factory setting of 1,1. This is deemed to be the best compromise if you can't change the base angle. Early grip but not too much grip. Basically good at low inclination angles and shallow slopes. Less good on steeper slopes and carving. Ideal for low skill level holiday skiers on Blue runs. I've heard many people say that their skis have never felt the same after the first service as they did when they were new (blaming the ski tech for a bad service) but it's the change from a 1 degree base angle to 0 base that changes the characteristics so fundamentally.

The 1,2 that I use is the factory setting for my everyday skis (Kastle MX83). I've toyed with the idea of 1,3 for them, particularly early season, but they have so much more grip than any other ski I've ever been on that I don't think I can be bothered with maintaining a sharper edge tip. Kastle put 1,3 on their RX (race-derived) skis at the factory which perhaps illustrates the difference between perceived skill levels for the relevant angles but it's also due to the ski width underfoot - a narrower ski is easier to tip to an angle where it will break away than a fat ski so the sharper tip counteracts that. That's why you hear of pro racers setting their skis at as much as 1,5 - they tip their skis over so much further than the rest of us that that kind of side angle is the only way they can maintain grip through the turn.
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For a novice skier, @Awdbugga's threads are very enlightening! I do my skis myself with tools supplied by Spyderjon, so hadn't ever put much thought into the angles. You live and learn.
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@Raceplate, I don't know any racers that would use as big a base bevel as 1 degree. The standard where I buy skis is 0.5.

I have also never heard of 88 or whatever describing the internal angle, base bevels are nearly always fractions of a degree and file guides are only available in whole degrees, you want the machine to match your file guide.
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I've tried setting my skis to 87 degrees but if I get a service when I'm on holiday they always seem to come back set to 88. This has happened in various resorts and regardless of how carefully I've explained what I want. So now I just leave them at 88.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Tom Doc wrote:
For a novice skier, @Awdbugga's threads are very enlightening! I do my skis myself with tools supplied by Spyderjon, so hadn't ever put much thought into the angles. You live and learn.


It's cos I'm a numbnuts Puzzled and people have to explain things to me in very simple terms. Toofy Grin
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rjs wrote:
@Raceplate, I don't know any racers that would use as big a base bevel as 1 degree. The standard where I buy skis is 0.5.
Won't argue with that, you know far more about racing than I ever will. My point was meant to be more about the side edge being 85 which you would never put on a recreational ski as it would be too grabby.

rjs wrote:
I have also never heard of 88 or whatever describing the internal angle, base bevels are nearly always fractions of a degree and file guides are only available in whole degrees, you want the machine to match your file guide.
Think this is a 'horses for courses' argument. I've always thought of edge angles as the angle at the tip rather than the variation from vertical or horizontal. To me that's the most logical way and the base angle is the amount that the tip is offset from flat. But different people think differently - I'm sure I'm not the only one.

The amount of confusion caused earlier by Rossi's 88 and 2 email answer illustrates how easily things can be misinterpreted. Took me a long time to realise what a difference the offset makes - i.e. the base angle. The point you've made above just reinforces it.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
@Awdbugga, by the last day you won't notice the altitude. You won't necessary be acclimatised, but you'll be used to skiing at altitude. You'll also be amazed how your skiing improves when the runs are longer than a minute Wink


I hope you're right Snoodles. My mate thinks I'm nuts for even remotely thinking of giving Marmolada a go. If your skiing improves the longer the runs; from the sounds of it I'll be a freakin expert at the end of Marmolada, cos admin says it's relentlessly long. snowHead Toofy Grin Anyway if I bottle it or can't do it, I'll just blame it on my sciatica. Ready made excuse numero uno.
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Honestly think everyone is over complicating it. If you hire ski's or have them shop serviced, in most cases you'll get what you're given so the only point of reading these threads is to see "what you could have won". I had to hire some a couple of years back after a binding failure. The edge settings were never discussed. Nor were they when I used to have my own ski's serviced. At the time I had no idea about edge angles, would have assumed they were all the same anyway. It was the guy doing the servicing to know what was correct, that is what I am paying him for right.

If you service your own ski's and are "a punter" then it's real simple. Don't touch the base edges - most set to 1 coming out the factory. And set the side edge to between 1 and 3 depending on how hard you carve and/or how fast you ski and/or how much grip you want. It's not the end of the world either way - you'll just find it a bit more "edgy" at 3 - naturally...

If you service your own ski's and ara "a pro" then you'll just be sitting there laughing.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

everyone is over complicating it


This.

If you are good and sensitive enough to notice and care, your tech will be taking care of your skis appropriately.

If you don't have your own tech...you're not good enough to notice or care.
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@under a new name, I think it counts if you are your own tech too Toofy Grin
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The 2016/17 Salomon Tech Alpine Manual has 1 degree base angle for performance on piste, otherwise 1.3 - 1.5 degrees. Side angle 2 - 2.5 degrees for all.
Previous editions 1.5 degree base and 2.5 degree side for all.
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@colinstone, all Salomons come 1,2. Just 'cause it's in a tech manual doesn't mean it's true.

If you phone Amer they'll tell you that all Atomics are 1,2 when they're actually 1,3.
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