 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jbob, Thanks for the link. I thought I knew a lot about climbing but realised I don't understand quite a lot about their terms. OK I can translate rappelling as abseiling, but what is "third- and fourth-class terrain"? I should really look up what a 5.10b grade is.
The UIAA publishes a lot on accidents and analysis - see for example http://www.theuiaa.org/safety-standards/research-information/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@johnE, I'm not a climber but I've heard climbers talking in the 5.X climbing difficulty terms. Also the well known climbing shoe manufacturer Five Ten, takes their name from it.
Try this grade conversion chart:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/comptable.html
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@johnE, class 3 would be a scramble and 4 an easy climb, so terrain where you might use a rope but not always. Accidents tend to happen because of complacency in less extreme terrain.
@PowderAdict, those are climbing grades, so what would fall in the class 5 category. These are the US grading classes, including lower levels.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| johnE wrote: |
I should really look up what a 5.10b grade is.
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If you have to look it up you probably want to avoid climbing it.
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@PowderAdict, Thanks I had a look and it maps to a VI+. To me that is a tough climb. @Thornyhill, Oddly I have never had an urge to climb in the USA but the link from @Scarlet, proved interesting reading
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@johnE, I’ve climbed in the states and enjoyed it very much. I have to say the grading can be a little capricious especially between different rock types. Also protection can be erratic, ie a bolt every 8 feet on HVS ground, then 100 foot run outs at the top on mild VS slabs.
But back to the report, do we in skiing where serious injury is maybe even more common than climbing although fatalities fewer, look at why we have so many trashed knees, and busted heads. I’m sure there will be some common factors at play.
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@jbob, It's an interesting article, and I agree with your point about post-accident analysis – we should always try and learn from incidents, and it's one reason why people like coroners have a job. I had an accident in an office a couple of weeks ago, not serious but it could have been if I was a larger person. I duly reported the incident, only to be told that "so and so did that last week"...I nearly hit the roof.
As a climber of 20 years, not one of those reasons surprises me. I've never been a fan of micro cams, though I can see they might provide some comfort at the desperate end of the spectrum (I don't climb at a level that would require such things), preferring more reliable nut placements. Swinging falls terrify me, and are the main reason I usually wear a helmet outdoors, but can be mitigated with double ropes. Dodgy abseils and failure to tie a knot in the end have been the cause of accidents since the beginning of time, as have people falling off easy terrain because they weren't roped up, and looking after your gear goes without saying – it may save your life.
I think what I'm trying to say it that with a bit of education, all those accidents are largely preventable and come down to complacency and laziness. I think the equivalent in skiing is off-piste, where people in the know are encouraged to obtain safety gear and *learn how to use it*. One group where this is problematic though, is among those who ski on piste and then follow tracks off to the side without consideration of potential dangers. Those who are not safe because they don't realise there is a danger. I think the dangers in climbing are more obvious to everyone, although you'll still get idiots who hurt themselves on scrambles because they didn't think that flip-flops were a poor choice of footwear.
Sorry, that's all a bit rambling. Hopefully there's a point in there somewhere  Are there really more climbing fatalities than skiers?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sorry, that's all a bit rambling. Hopefully there's a point in there somewhere rolling eyes Are there really more climbing fatalities than skiers?
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I seriusly doubt there are more climbing fatalities than skiing, but reading the Llanberis mountain rescue blog shows rambling is even more dangerous.
see https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/information-centre/incident-statistics
where it reveals 47 rock climbing incidents in the UK in 2013 (0 fatal), 82 mountain biking, (I am confused by that one there were 82 biking incidents but only 77 subjects), 1 snowboarding incident. However there were 649 rambling incidents (13 fatal). I know we should be looking at rate per participant hour but they are still revealing statistics
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I've never been a fan of micro cams, though I can see they might provide some comfort at the desperate end of the spectrum (I don't climb at a level that would require such things), preferring more reliable nut placements.
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Much as I agree I think preferring reliable nut placements to microcams is like saying you prefer eating a nice restaurant to pot noodles. You would only use a microcam if you didn't have reliable nut placements surely!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I know we should be looking at rate per participant hour but they are still revealing statistics
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Hmm I agree with the first bit but not with the second. And I definitely don't agree with this:
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but reading the Llanberis mountain rescue blog shows rambling is even more dangerous.
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And I do all of these activities.
"Rambling" (although I'd call it hillwalking personally) is much more popular not much more dangerous. It may be a bigger drain on mountain rescue resources as a result but that is not the same thing. At all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@jedster, oh definitely. But I have seen them appear on racks for no reason other than willy waving. As I said, at the desperate end of the spectrum, you take what you can get, but they are a last resort item really.
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@jedster,
I was really going back to:
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But back to the report, do we in skiing where serious injury is maybe even more common than climbing although fatalities fewer, look at why we have so many trashed knees, and busted heads. I’m sure there will be some common factors at play.
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and thought I would check just how many fatalities there actually were rock climbing. It appears that over 2012 and 2013 the lasat two years I could get info for there were actually zero rock climbing fatalities in the UK.
But then when @Scarlet, introduced rambling in his/her post I couldn't resist looking that one up as well.
My expereince in the mountains is that I often come across ill equiped walkers (Snowdon attracts them like a magnet) but very rarely do you see rock climbers ill equipped or being foolish.
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You know it makes sense.
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A friend of mine used to run a large outdoor centre for school kids. He would say that of the activities they did, climbing, canoeing, and hill walking he worried most about hill walking days as it was more difficult to control what the kids were doing. I regularly stay next door to the Llanberis mountain rescue post, they are incredibly busy especially in the summer, they do a fantastic job, I can’t see how if they keep getting busier they can continue as a volunteer service.
Back to skiing.
One of the common Ski injuries at least on Snowheads is trashed ACL, but what do we really know about how these happen. There are any number of possible causes; collisions, fitness, speed, faulty bindings, poorly set up bindings, worn out boots. Are some bindings safer than others, do we have any data. One of the things I see often is incorrect forward pressure, how significant is this. We just don’t know.
It’s quite hard to get decent information about skiing accidents. It’s in both the manufacturers and the resorts interests to keep it to themselves.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@jedster, oh definitely. But I have seen them appear on racks for no reason other than willy waving. As I said, at the desperate end of the spectrum, you take what you can get, but they are a last resort item really.
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yes I'm with you - any pitch that needs these things (or microwires for that matter) ceases to be enjoyable recreation in my book
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Poster: A snowHead
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@jedster, oh definitely. But I have seen them appear on racks for no reason other than willy waving. As I said, at the desperate end of the spectrum, you take what you can get, but they are a last resort item really.
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yes I'm with you - any pitch that needs these things (or microwires for that matter) ceases to be enjoyable recreation in my book
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My expereince in the mountains is that I often come across ill equiped walkers (Snowdon attracts them like a magnet) but very rarely do you see rock climbers ill equipped or being foolish.
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I take your point entirely although I still think climbing presents bigger risks to even competent climbers than hill walking does to foolish walkers. There are a couple of reasons - one is that you tend (at least when youngish) to push your climbing to a level where you are stretching your capabilities and the other is that dangers are ever present in climbing and a moment of carelessness can be fatal. Remember we have lost top climbers to such things as forgetting to tie stoppers at the bottom of abseil ropes and downclimbing easy ground solo.
I'm a little surprised that there have been so few fatalities recently but they do happen.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
| ... My expereince in the mountains is that I often come across ill equiped walkers (Snowdon attracts them like a magnet) but very rarely do you see rock climbers ill equipped or being foolish. |
I think you'll find that many of the "walker" statistics are broadly old people having heart attacks. I've attended a number of those, and the last time I looked at the stats it was a major issue. You need to correct the statistics for age and also time spent in the activity, plus the fact that climbers actually do the "walking" bit in order to get to the "climbing" bit.
Snowdon.... You also get people carrying ice gear in summer, or waving around rescue style radios. They're likely the people who build cairns on well defined tracks.
I am truly their enemy with my Tesco bag and failure to keep three points of contact at all times.
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I think that climbers generally aren't "ill equipped or being foolish" because their sport is obviously dangerous. If I'm soloing something and I slip, I die. If I'm walking and I slip, I get up again.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
think you'll find that many of the "walker" statistics are broadly old people having heart attacks.
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I suspect it is actually ill equiped people getting caught out by bad weather, but then I haven't got the statistics to hand. However, I did read a year a so ago that the biggest cause of death in the Austrian ski areas was cardiac arrest. It appears that being unfit at altitude is a much more serious problem than head injuries.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@jbob, my blinking memory is gone. I read a super article on the line this time last year about the most common causes of serious knee injuries in skiing, but can't for the life of me remember where it was.
Or was it the year before? Crud.
Anyway, I thought that I sent you it.
If I remember correctly the major factor was feebleness. Now of course everyone on Snowheads who has blown their ACL were in the hard charging bulgy thighed monster category. But there was a clear link between poor physical conditioning and these injuries.
The type of fall most linked to bust ACLs was slow, twisting, particularly falling backwards. Think Michael Owen in the 2006 World Cup but on skis.
Can't remember the rest, but what I took from it was get strong and (except for places where any fall might mean curtains), if losing it, flop down the hill. That's why you see me on my face so much.
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The type of fall most linked to bust ACLs was slow, twisting, particularly falling backwards.
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Which is why I'm a miserable grump with no sense of humour when people start horsing around in lift queues and nursery slopes. I've seen people do ACLs like that.
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| HammondR wrote: |
If I remember correctly the major factor was feebleness. Now of course everyone on Snowheads who has blown their ACL were in the hard charging bulgy thighed monster category. But there was a clear link between poor physical conditioning and these injuries.
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I'm not sure it's the direct link - most racers and park monkeys will blow out an ACL or more at some point during their careers as will rugby players etc. I think probably skiers at the beginner end of the spectrum probably have a greater incidence rate per ski day etc because of their propensity to have more awkward falls and the slow speed mechanics. I've certainly learnt that taking a hip fall rather than attempting a recovery from an odd backseat position is sometimes wise.
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| HammondR wrote: |
there was a clear link between poor physical conditioning and these injuries.
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When I did my injury last year (fractured pelvis and torn quadricep) the doctor did comment to me that if I had been in better shape on a general health and fitness front, my quads would have likely been a bit more elastic; and my bones a bit more bouncy. No guarantee of course that the injury wouldn't have occurred anyway but he did say it'd have been less likely and potentially less serious.
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