 Poster: A snowHead
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eEvans, you are quite right, it is certainly a "cultural" thing. For example, I don't think there is a massive pumping of money into grassroots sport in the US by the government, but there is a rich tradition of support of local school teams and clubs, by local firms and companies. Also good tax breaks for doing so.
I'm afraid in Britain there is still a vestige of the attitude that it is not "seemly" to be seen to be trying too hard at sport. Maybe not quite as bad as in the "Chariots of Fire" era, when Harold Abraham was criticised for using a "professional" trainer. But there's still a hint of it there, especially in the social classes which run Britain via the Civil Service (Eton, Oxford, etc).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, indeed, I know several friends with children who attend schools that discourage competitive sports - presumably becuase the head master / mistress always lost when they were at school, and thus think that by preventing the kids from suffering a similar experience the kids will grow up to be more , I dunno, rounded. Whereas wat we really need is for kids to leanr how to try bloody hard to win.
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nbt, On the nose, my teachers hated my competitve nature in the classroom and during P.E. however i was a golden child when i represented the school or county. I hate teachers and the power the hold to abuse. ALL OF YOU! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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nbt, yes, while at the same time learning how to lose gracefully (which is what most will have to do much of the time, after all)
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good point PG.
As the yanks say thought, second place is first loser
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PG, Simple, DON'T LOSE. You can't lose.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, true
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm sorry but I disagree, sport for children should mainly be about participation rather than competition. Otherwise you are likely to put the less gifted ones off sport completely.
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Kramer, surely that depends on how it is handled. The two aren't incompatible. Participation for some, and they can be made to feel good about it, competition for others - and most kids are competitive.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, I don't dispute that Eddie had courage. To switch from being an Alpine ski-racer, using Alpine equipment, to using Nordic jumping equipment (soft boots, heel-lift bindings, wide skis) must have been very tough at the relatively late age of his early 20s. Having tried to do just some small jumps on my telemark skis recently gives some idea of how tough.
As far as the next generation is concerned, the only thing that might save it is the London 2012 Games, but that will only happen with a concerted push and encouragement from the whole of British society.
nbt, actually I have to say I was very impressed with Jeremy Bloom's interview after he got on his tails in the moguls and only managed 6th. Stuff along the lines of "The sun will still rise in the morning, I have still had a great experience here, now I'm moving on to the next challenge." The lesson here is: "try as hard as you can to win, but if you don't, be aware that just because you failed on the day, you are not a totally worthless person." Kramer, perhaps that is a lesson that children can learn early on in the relatively cocooned world of school sports, rather than have it suddenly hit them out in the real world, where we cannot avoid having real winners and losers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What I have heard about "Eddie the Eagle" is from a SCGB rep who said that:
"Eddie was basically a ski bum - he went from resort to resort in a camper van. He worked on the lifts in return for a lift pass. Eventually he got a to a resort where they wouldn't offer him a job. He had no money to move on so had to take whatever skiing was free.
The only 'free' skiing was the ski-jump. So that is what he did. Starting off on small jumps, wokrked his way up. The key element here is that he went from a novice to representing the UK at the olympics in just a few years. Must ski jumpers start far far younger."
The guy is a exceptional skier with courage and commitment. What pissed of officials is that he got all the media attention instead of the Bell brothers who I believe did rather well in their events but were passed over by the media in favour of the 'guy in the big glasses. He also held the amateur speed skiing record as well as clearing something like 10 double decker buses.
Everybody claims that 'it is the taking part' in the olympics - or has that changed ?
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Isn't the Olympics supposed to be about your Countries best competing against the worlds best?
Eddie was our best.
And so is Zoe (the snowboarder who crashed out twice in the boarder cross) - well actually she was very unlucky and was knocked out by other riders.
Well done for even being there!
Meg
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm new here so be gentle with me!
I always had huge admiration for Eddie for what he did and I still do.
I can understand some of the points being made here. But at the end of the day, Eddie was allowed to compete so fair play to him. Who knows, if there had been better funding available to him then maybe he would have done much better. We'll never know. He tried, he had courage and I know a lot of people took up snosports as a result so it can't be all bad.
Snowleopard, I read about your story in the Glasgow Herald around November time and also have huge admiration for you. Keep ski-ing and having fun! I used to work with Dave Jacobs when he was in Scotland years ago, so when you see him next, tell him Abi says hi!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| hodsonb wrote: |
| "Eddie was basically a ski bum |
A little unkind; he actually was a very good dry-slope racer (top 20 at the All-England Championships) and also an instructor at Gloucester dry ski slope.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Martin Bell, IIRC he bagged a West Country Junior Race Title, in his youth.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's only one way to guarantee losing - that's to send nobody to compete.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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simon - you might want to explain to them about the aussie gold won in ice skating last olympics by a guy who was "non-competetive" even in his own standings he knew the others could out skate him.... so he sat back thinking that if just one of the other three fell he MIGHT get a medal.... they ALL fell & he won the gold!
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Some of us seem to be in danger of taking sport a bit too seriously. The only justification I can think of for paying people out of public funds to compete is that they encourage others, necessarily of lower (generally much lower) ability to take up sport (the only other reasons for sport are fun for the particpants and for the spectators, and they can all pay for their own fun as far as I'm concerned, just like I do).
The danger of the 'there's no point in participating if you're not going to win' approach (to put it crudely) is that it provides a disincentive to all of us who haven't a snowball's chance of winning anything. The likes of EtE encourage people to believe that however crap they are, it's worth a bash (I doubt that many people took up ski jumping following his example, but they may have been encouraged to participate in a sport for the sake of doing so rather than in the expectation of glory).
It's great to have top sportsmen and women about, but if that is only as a result of ridiculous amounts of cash being spent on them, to say nothing of the damage many of them do to themselves by overtraining (most runners seem to spend half their time with strained fetlocks or whatever, or they can't run because they have a bit of a sniffle), what's the point?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| richmond wrote: |
| The only justification I can think of for paying people out of public funds to compete is that they encourage others, necessarily of lower (generally much lower) ability to take up sport (the only other reasons for sport are fun for the particpants and for the spectators, and they can all pay for their own fun as far as I'm concerned, just like I do). |
The other real reason, like it or not, is that sport has become an extension of diplomacy, helping to project a particular image of a nation-state to the rest of the world. As Uruguayans say: "other nations have history, we have futbol". Governments fund sport to improve their own image at home and their country's image abroad. (As I mentioned in the "Simon Bates" thread, I do question whether this is what sport / the Olympics SHOULD be about.)
After the EtE phenomenon, the BOA made a conscious decision that it no longer wanted to project the image of the "quirky, eccentric British loser" abroad. Whether this decision was right or wrong is not for me to say. It may or may not have helped London win the 2012 Olympic bid - impossible to say for sure.
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Martin Bell, I suspect that Seb Coe more or less won the London 2012 bid single handed (although he says not). He had everyone's respect (even the PM)! 
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Interestingly, in the same year that Eddie "flew" in the Olympics, Seb failed to qualify for the 1500m in the summer Games, because he was not amongst the top 3 in Britain.
Perhaps that's an argument for simply letting the best in each event compete, irrespective of whatever piece of earth their mother happened to be situated on when they were born...
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I believe the IOC should set a qualifying standard for each event, each country should then be allowed to take the maximum number of qualifying athletes the the numbers for each country would perhaps have to reflect population of each country. To one country to exclude a competitor because they may be embarrassed by their performance stinks. Funding sport in this country needs a major overhaul. More focus on recognising talent younger and providing the correct school and college environment for talent to develop along side academic education.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sun 26-02-06 11:14; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Russell, hear hear. Like the Sports Etudes sections of French schools. Fat chance though - the poor things might hurt themselves, skin a knee and then the parents would sue the schools and we'd be back to square one. I don't think schools dare to encourage real sports these days. they're terrified of law suits, and anyway believe children shouldn't be allowed to fail! 
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
| richmond wrote: |
| The only justification I can think of for paying people out of public funds to compete is that they encourage others, necessarily of lower (generally much lower) ability to take up sport (the only other reasons for sport are fun for the particpants and for the spectators, and they can all pay for their own fun as far as I'm concerned, just like I do). |
The other real reason, like it or not, is that sport has become an extension of diplomacy, helping to project a particular image of a nation-state to the rest of the world. As Uruguayans say: "other nations have history, we have futbol". Governments fund sport to improve their own image at home and their country's image abroad. (As I mentioned in the "Simon Bates" thread, I do question whether this is what sport / the Olympics SHOULD be about.)
After the EtE phenomenon, the BOA made a conscious decision that it no longer wanted to project the image of the "quirky, eccentric British loser" abroad. Whether this decision was right or wrong is not for me to say. It may or may not have helped London win the 2012 Olympic bid - impossible to say for sure. |
Good point. I'd say on that basis that EtE was a good thing. Even though UK didn't have a prayer of winning, and almost certainly never will, EtE had a decent go, had a laugh and gave everyone else a laugh. Seems a pretty decent image to me, and doesn't suggest that we're a bunch of cheery losers (to anyone with half a brain cell).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| easiski wrote: |
| I don't think schools dare to encourage real sports these days. they're terrified of law suits... |
It's easy to overplay this trend but the statistics suggest that it's no so black and white. There are around 800,000 sport/leisure injuries in schools every year. Many of these injuries will occur in the playground, but this still leaves lots and lots of injuries while playing competitive sport.
Sure, some schools are anti-sport because of the risks involved or because they disapprove of competition, but my sense is that the trend is moving in the other direction.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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This is worth a read http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/02/25/happiness/index_np.html (you'll need to click through a brief ad to get the full text but it doesn't add crap to your computer system).
I think there is a corollary in schools sport in the perceived sense that having losers is bad for the education system. That premise has spread right through the curriculum ... one problem with that is the way that the 'curriculum' has become, over time, extraordinarily narrow in the attempt to formulate, measure and quantify results. We're taking the vast and varied range of children's attributes, abilities and interests and forcing them through one small measurement criteria in the attempt to say 'look how clever we are as a nation' ... and failing abysmally.
As a child I was lucky enough to go to a school that had an x-gymnast as part of the PE team and I went on to compete at schools county and national level and to have been inspired by a mad geography teacher to allowed huge amounts of time climbing up and falling down mountains. All these opportunities are lost to today's kids that are being pushed into technological syllabi in the hope that our international education status will be enhanced.
In the meantime all the practical skills that support our life infrastructure and the guidance that supports our sports infrastructure gets blown to the wind.
Our children have enormous strengths, abilities and desires and because of centralised education management that's eliminated good formal sports education(guidance) our kids are finding their own outlets for their energies ... just look at the current Nike ad campaign to see how this works.
The school next to me has dropped all winter sports activities and all gymnastic activities. It has no after school sports program and has openly acknowledged that this is because funding is required to be directed to 'core skills' ... Currently core skills do not include health and fitness
We are the engineers of our own failings. The world of competition is a hard place if we don't instill the will or desire to compete then all we'll have is the occasional gifted practitioner that raises public interest and then fades to obscurity as a TV pundit (many apologies to those I'm insulting) it needs a fundamental rethink of how we look at and take the time to find our children's natural strengths and then nurture them.
Which is more important, our pensions or our children's future?
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I,ve been in Austria the past month & been watching the ski jumping in a local bar. Just tuning into Germans/Dutch & others conversations Eddie the Eagle was mentioned 
I do hope they make that movie of his life that should show up a few official people for what they are.
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You know it makes sense.
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There are two reasons why many state schools don't do sports, neither of which have anything to do with a dislike of competition. One is lack of facilities; the Tories started selling off playing fields and the current lot are continuing to do so(while paying lip service to encouraging more sport). Some schools have never had access to decent facilities. The second, at least at primary in schools, is that the national curriculum has provided precious little time for sports, although I believe that there will be more time for schools to set their own curriculum in future. Even so there will be many demands on what time the national curriculum leaves.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
| Which is more important, our pensions or our children's future? |
Tricky. I was hoping that both could be provided, since I regard them both as essential.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| richmond wrote: |
| paying lip service to encouraging more sport |
Pretty expensive lip service given that £1.5bn is being spent on school sport between 2003 and 2008...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why are playing fields still being sold off? I'm sure that you'll find that what is being given with one hand will be taken away with the other.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Martin Bell, Eddie the (WRETCHED) Eagle is all a red herring - bless him. Personally I don't think Team GB can hide behind the fact that we are not an Alpine nation. Though congratulations are in order to all our athletes who took part in the Olympic Games - you did your best!
Let's face it we might have done better. There are many disciplines in the Olympics which don't rely on snow in your back yard, for instance all the speed skating, figure skating, ice hockey, curling, snowboarding, aerials, etc. All of which we potentially have the facilities for the training.
What do we need to do to have a credible team at the next Olympics? Money would help no doubt. The media could do loads more. We have good coverage of alpine events on C4. Whatever happened to skating though - when I was a youngster 35 years ago the National and World Championships were "must watch" on the TV. In those days we spawned John Currie, Robin Cousins, and Torvill and Dean. Not any more I am sorry to say, although there is a glimmer of hope for the future with the ice dancing of the Kerrs.
Don't blame the hapless cash starved athletes, it is the governing authorities and the government which need the wake up call.
Let's hope there is some vision for the future to give our athletes half a chance for Vancouver in 2010. Turin 2006 was not the best for GB. All very depressing at the moment!
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Before I arrived at my secondary school in 2001 they used to run ski trips - nope it's too dangerous now. My new geography teacher used to take kids on proper adventure field trips, so i asked him if we could do it - nope, too dangerous now.
It does my head in! We're all wrapped in cotton wool!
It's the parents too, my mum won't let me go to Scunthorpe because 'it's not a very nice place' well my mate hangs out there and no-one's killed/raped her yet! Everyone wraps us in cotton wool!
I have got RSI thru sailing (and guitar), dodgy knees frm sailing and skiing, dodgy elbows from a rollerblading accident, but so what? I'm having fun, and it aint stopped me! I've learnt how far to go, how I can push myself, I've got exercise, got a life, know something outside of the screen! Why can't all the stupid adults out there see the real truths?!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DAVID SNELL wrote: |
| Let's face it we might have done better. There are many disciplines in the Olympics which don't rely on snow in your back yard, for instance all the speed skating, figure skating, ice hockey, curling, snowboarding, aerials, etc. All of which we potentially have the facilities for the training. |
Add short-track speed-skating, where we were actually very successful - just before it became a full Olympic sport! (The most successful British athlete at Calgary 1988 was not myself, nor Eddie, but a short-track speed-skater called Wilf O'Reilly, who won two golds - "demonstration sport" golds though...)
All of the above can be trained on indoor ice or on plastic ramps into water, so, yes, we have absolutely no excuse not to do well at them. But the problem is recruitment - getting just a few talented kids into that type of sport, instead of them all going to football (or rugby if they're posh).
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Martin Bell, Don't you think the press are also partly to blame? they either ignore our winter sport athletes completely, or build them up to unrealistic levels and then slag them off when they don't get medals. This idea that if you're not in the top 3 in the world you're a failure is ridiculous. I thought I guys did pretty well on the Alpine front. Very respectable results compared with their WC results, and should all get very good press. That would encourage youngsters to continue with their sports.
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| Quote: |
getting just a few talented kids into that type of sport, instead of them all going to football (or rugby if they're posh).
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I was having exactly this conversation with my 10 year old yesterday - he hates football and rugby, loves skiing and climbing and has only gained the respect of his games teacher by letting slip that he needed the afternoon off school to race ... until then, he was dismissed as an asthmatic games-dodger. For children to get involved in minority sport, they need the financial and time commitment of parents, and the saturation of football/rugby in schools (and local, easily accessible clubs) at least ensures that children have access to some sort of sporting activity ... and football/rugby need minimal equipment so a game can be set up, spontaneously. For those who don't like team games and don't have indulgent committed parents, it's not much help of course. The 10 year old would like to see individual sports (climbing, skiing, skating, diving, cycling etc) represented in school games lessons, but until that day, it's up to the parents to make it happen.
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poma, Absolutely - I always hated team games, much preferred individual sports - then no-one can claim your glory can they? Schools shoud wake up - anyway playing footbal is much more injurious than skiing statisically (I've heard). I imagine rugby is worse - as for a cricket ball hitting you anywhere .... the mind boggles - very nasty!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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poma - my baby brother "traded" the sports teacher at school.... said he was happy to do sport - as long as it was the type he wanted to do....
School did not think it wanted to install a rock climbing wall and white water canoeing was out of the question on the school premises... So they compromised on canoe polo... he and a few mates would happily sit in their mini kayak things in the pool and practice doing eskimo rolls etc.... while everyone else played football....
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