 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mooney058 wrote: |
also bearing in mind that dirt/gravel roads are non existent in Europe? Speeds and road surface conditions are differnt on a dirt road and on asphalt.
Driving to conditions and beeing equiped for conditions are equally important |
Wouldn't have thought the road surface makes much difference when it's covered in snow and ice?
I've never actually used winter tyres, so can't comment on how effective they are, but do know that me and a couple of thousand of my neighbours manage to drive on sketchy snow covered roads every day with very little drama, by taking it easy. There's always the odd idiot that is the exception - nearly always tourists in rental cars.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| hang11 wrote: |
| mooney058 wrote: |
also bearing in mind that dirt/gravel roads are non existent in Europe? Speeds and road surface conditions are differnt on a dirt road and on asphalt.
Driving to conditions and beeing equiped for conditions are equally important |
Wouldn't have thought the road surface makes much difference when it's covered in snow and ice?
I've never actually used winter tyres, so can't comment on how effective they are, but do know that me and a couple of thousand of my neighbours manage to drive on sketchy snow covered roads every day with very little drama, by taking it easy. There's always the odd idiot that is the exception - nearly always tourists in rental cars. |
Funny enough, saw lots of idiots on summer tyres blocking traffic and causing accidents. Saw cars spinning in front of me both on a mountain road and on highways.
Just like summer tyres is not an insurance from accident in summer, same applies to winter tyres in winter. But accidents/deaths caused by inadequate equipment are not rare unfortunately
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@hang11, having experienced both I can say the difference on snow is enormous. But the main point is that the difference on tarmac in both wet and dry conditions is also enormous, and will make the difference between you rear ending the guy in front or not.
The other thing is that here at least your insurer will linely not pay up, and the police will chuck the book at you...
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"Carnage on the access roads"
"Nobody uses winter tyres"
2+2=4?
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I went out looking for some snow socks the other day for 155/65-14 tyres. Could not find any of that size. The closest I got to was 155/70-14.
Now I'm wondering whether those will fit as it still the same diameter and width of tyre.
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Over the 13 years we have lived in the mountains we have evolved our tyres / chains / socks strategy, and we have gotten thru the last 4 winters with studs on the 2wd, and always just used M&S rated tyres on the Defender / Duster / Forrester / Freelander. Without ever fitting chains on any of the 4x4, and only in the 2wd before we went down the studs route. ( There was 20 cm of unploughed snow on our road this AM when I left, and everything was fine).
We got caught out last winter when the snow came in October, and we had not put the winter tyres on the 4x4, and it slid all over the shop. I worked as a driver for a few winters and was previously very sniffy about the merits of socks, and very pro-chains ( not fancy fit self- tightening ones which can ice up, but the ones that you tighten up after driving 20m or so.)
When we got caught out, in an out if character moment of panic, I bought some socks as a stop-gap (EUR 80 from NorAuto). I saw similar ones in a supermarket for EUR 40 about 15 minutes later, so bought them too, and took the others back claiming I had mistakenly got the wrong size.
I fitted the socks as soon as there was snow on the road, but before I had any grip issues.
The Carrefour socks were AMAZING.
They went on in seconds compared to the chains, they did not require tightening, there was no road noise or rumble.
Grip was excellent.
We used them quite a bit, as we had ordered our Winter tyres online, but the delivery was delayed several times as the driver could not get up the road because of the snow 
The socks take up very little space, and as they are APPROVED under NF ( Norme Française), these qualify as "équipements spéciaux" required under French law and fitted at the B26 sign mandating use chains.
However, according to the French Gendarmerie website, they do not count as a substitute for chains in "Extreme Conditions".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
these qualify as "équipements spéciaux" required under French law and fitted at the B26 sign mandating use chains.
However, according to the French Gendarmerie website, they do not count as a substitute for chains in "Extreme Conditions".
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The thing is, snow tyres count as "équipements spéciaux" too - but that doesn't stop the police insisting on chains too, when conditions are bad (in practice, when the roads are specially busy on big transfer days, when one stuck car causes chaos for hundreds). I've used chains a lot over the years - never used socks but from observation they can be very effective and are clearly much easier. In the most extreme conditions with masses of snow on the road in rutted heaps (never believe people who tell you that French mountain roads never have masses of snow in rutted heaps) they can be damaged and just lost. But that's rare. For an occasional trip I'd say that ordinary tyres plus socks are a sensible, low-risk (but not risk-free) option.
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I had a combination of winter tyres and socks and they were brilliant driving to the top of the town in Val T. I got them reasonably priced from roofbox.com. Top tip - I would buy earlier rather than later, once the Express puts out it's usual "Worst winter in 100 years" story they will fly off the shelf 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
The thing is, snow tyres count as "équipements spéciaux" too - but that doesn't stop the police insisting on chains too, when conditions are bad . |
Although some B26 signs have an additional sign saying "pneus neige admis", many do not.
Ultimately its the Gendarmes who have to sort out the mess, so it seems right that they make the call on what equipment they think will allow you to continue your journey safely**.
Although in my experience this has been inconsistent.
(**Sometimes it is by Prefectoral decree)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Since you asked:
Mesh-type chains (for example, Michelin Easy Grip composite), are the best solution, I think. I hate -- hate -- metal chains. They are too hard to put on because modern cars have very little clearance between the tire and wheel well. The problem with socks is that they do not work well in snow, in my experience. However, I've used them in ice and they work...OK. Also they will shred in about 30 minutes on asphalt.
As for tire choice: If it's really snowy/icy conditions, summer vs all season isn't much of a difference. You might get a few hundred meters higher in altitude with all season tires. Winter/snow tires: I see why you don't want to invest in them, but they will make a noticeable difference in "mixed" conditions -- areas of dry/wet/patches of snow/verglas etc.
The bottom line in France is that if you run into a control, you need chains (I think socks are OK, never encountered a control the one time I used them)
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| Pasigal wrote: |
| The problem with socks is that they do not work well in snow, in my experience. |
Mmmm, kinda of defeats the object doesn't it?
| Pasigal wrote: |
| However, I've used them in ice and they work... |
Do you mean compacted icy snow or literally ice?
| Pasigal wrote: |
| OK. Also they will shred in about 30 minutes on asphalt. |
But you shouldn't have socks or chains on if the tyres are on asphalt.
| Pasigal wrote: |
| As for tire choice: If it's really snowy/icy conditions, summer vs all season isn't much of a difference. You might get a few hundred meters higher in altitude with all season tires. Winter/snow tires: I see why you don't want to invest in them, but they will make a noticeable difference in "mixed" conditions -- areas of dry/wet/patches of snow/verglas etc. |
All season tyres are effectively a compromise. A way of getting through the year without switching your wheels/tyres. I can see why they make sense just driving in a lot of the UK but I think if you drive in more remote areas of the country and/or drive to the Alps then it still makes sense to get winters and do the switch. As you say they do cover a range of conditions.
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You know it makes sense.
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Just to clarify about the socks -- they work fine in ice, or frozen slush, or even very hard packed snow, but not loose or deep snow.
As for shredding them -- if you've ever driven around a typical ski station, the main roads will be clear but the side roads and the hilly driveway to your chalet, or shady areas, will likely have some icy/hardpack areas. So for a short drive to a restaurant, I don't want to take off the chains and put them back on just to get back to the chalet. Hence -- I leave them on. The socks will get destroyed pretty fast whereas you can drive (slowly, of course) with metal/mesh chains for a few kms.
We agree on the all season tires.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Pasigal wrote: |
Just to clarify about the socks -- they work fine in ice, or frozen slush, or even very hard packed snow, but not loose or deep snow.
As for shredding them -- if you've ever driven around a typical ski station, the main roads will be clear but the side roads and the hilly driveway to your chalet, or shady areas, will likely have some icy/hardpack areas. So for a short drive to a restaurant, I don't want to take off the chains and put them back on just to get back to the chalet. Hence -- I leave them on. The socks will get destroyed pretty fast whereas you can drive (slowly, of course) with metal/mesh chains for a few kms.
We agree on the all season tires. |
Thanks for clarifying.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
If it's really snowy/icy conditions, summer vs all season isn't much of a difference.
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In my experience that is absolutely not the case. We have had Kleber all season tyres on for two years, they have the mountain/snowflake symbol denoting they qualify as fully-fledged winters, and in use there is no discernable difference between them and winter tyres we have had previously, and this use includes most of the season in the alps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Pasigal, technically, if just icy or thin hardpack, chains are not advisable (although you probably get better traction) they are just really damaging to the road surface.
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@RobinS, This is what I am hearing. Tempts me for the next car.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Have winter tyres and Michelin Easy Grip, but not yet used them in 4 winters. Had a practise fit, and very easy to fit.
Tesco sometimes sells MEG at stupidly low prices - mine were £13.
When summers tyres need replacing, I'll switch to Michelin Cross Climate+. And pester dealer on any new car to have car supplied with them.
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| Quote: |
Chains work only in deep snow. Slush or black ice and chains will not help much
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That's not my experience. I find that chains help with any situation which calls for increased traction. Absolutely loads of French families drive to the Alps on summer tyres every year. But they tend to be pretty nifty with putting their chains on (and taking them off).
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| RobinS wrote: |
| Quote: |
If it's really snowy/icy conditions, summer vs all season isn't much of a difference.
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In my experience that is absolutely not the case. We have had Kleber all season tyres on for two years, they have the mountain/snowflake symbol denoting they qualify as fully-fledged winters, and in use there is no discernable difference between them and winter tyres we have had previously, and this use includes most of the season in the alps. |
So this is a true all year round tyre, that works as well as a summer tyre in summer and as well as a winter tyre in winter? Genuine question.
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No. All-seasons are never as good as summers in summer or winters in winter. The snowflake-and-mountain symbol is a good measure of winter capability but like any standard is only indicative. You can buy very cheap winter certified tyres or very expensive ones with a big difference between the two.
Not saying all-seasons like these aren’t a good solution for those in warmer areas who rarely see snow. But they’re never as good as ‘proper’ winters in colder areas or in snowy conditions.
Similarly all-seasons may be entirely suitable if you don’t have a performance model and you’d not see a noticeable difference in normal driving. But as your model gets into the performance bracket then you do notice the difference.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
| RobinS wrote: |
| Quote: |
If it's really snowy/icy conditions, summer vs all season isn't much of a difference.
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In my experience that is absolutely not the case. We have had Kleber all season tyres on for two years, they have the mountain/snowflake symbol denoting they qualify as fully-fledged winters, and in use there is no discernable difference between them and winter tyres we have had previously, and this use includes most of the season in the alps. |
So this is a true all year round tyre, that works as well as a summer tyre in summer and as well as a winter tyre in winter? Genuine question. |
Only had experience of Goodyear vectors on an S-max
Hugely improved traction on ice, snow, slush, standing water compared to summer tyres
Some increase in road noise
No detectable change in fuel economy
Lasted 10% less than summers (20k vs 22k)
Before fitting the Vectors, we found that snow socks worked well in all conditions, including deep snow
Interestingly, given the school of thought of using narrower tyres in winter, the S-max on its full width all seasons got through deep snow and deep semi packed snow much better than our Transit on much narrower winter tyres, the wide tyres allowed the S-max to float over the snow whilst the tranny just sank.
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Yes to socks-have used them in the U.K. when we had those two consecutive snowy winters around 09/10 on my mini Clubman. One one occasion I did around 50 miles up a snowy M40. Piece of cake to put on and off, much easier than chains (have used both), and better in the slush.
Snow tyres defintely worth the expense if you are using a car a lot. Effectively they render the need to use chains almost non existent.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Layne,
| Quote: |
RobinS wrote:
Quote:
If it's really snowy/icy conditions, summer vs all season isn't much of a difference.
In my experience that is absolutely not the case. We have had Kleber all season tyres on for two years, they have the mountain/snowflake symbol denoting they qualify as fully-fledged winters, and in use there is no discernable difference between them and winter tyres we have had previously, and this use includes most of the season in the alps.
So this is a true all year round tyre, that works as well as a summer tyre in summer and as well as a winter tyre in winter? Genuine question.
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On the (low performance - Fiat Qubo) vehicle we now have the Klebers have genuinely seemed to be as good as winters in the winter, and perfectly fine in the summer. After 20,000 miles the rears have hardly worn at all, and the fronts are down to about 4mm - will use them for early season trip, but replace them before our main three month trip.
These are the only all-seasons I have used, but on the basis of these I will now allways use all seasons rather than the twice a year tyre swap.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@RobinS, @Layne, @under a new name, we used Kleber Quadraxer all-season snowflake-graded tyres on our old Octavia. Not quite up to full winter tyre performance but very good in winter. However, definitely poorer dry-road summer roadholding (in a very low performance car!). If we'd driven many miles in the warmer months I'd have swapped them out.
Of course, all very subjective and I'm sure varies by car, road, temperature, tyre size etc.
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@LaForet, what is a “performance” model?
Most cars are well into what would be considered “performance” in, say, 1990.
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You know it makes sense.
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Whatever winters we have on our Nissan Murano are quieter and more efficient than our summers. I wouldn’t swap except, well, we do 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Some manufacturers develop a full winter tyre but then market it as an all season due to it not having a bad summer performance (Nokian spring to mind). I have two sets, the ones below 5mm tread get used as summers while I keep the newest for winter. Performance wise, I've got up steep roads with no problems while the ski buses have chains on (I am out there all winter) but I still get 20K miles plus on a pretty high performance all wheel drive car.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @LaForet, what is a “performance” model? |
Some of my comments and the article I wrote on Winter Wheels and Tyres (http://www.babybmw.net/howtos/Winter%20Wheels%20Guide%202%20Series%20v2.pdf) has been - reasonably - criticised because the arguments for spending money on a set of winter tyres or wheels+tyres are perhaps not so strong if you have a more 'mainstream' vehicle.
I've got a 330 BHP RWD car which I'd say was a 'performance' model, and as I take it to the Alps each winter, often more than once, it makes sense to spend money on a full set of wheels+tyres. Basically for me it's a no-brainer. But I appreciate that the cost/benefit/risk analysis is much harder to judge if you don't have this level of performance and perhaps only go to the Alps once a year or less.
I always try and be balanced but for anyone asking on a Skiing forum, then I assume they're driving to the Alps/Pyrenees, and really, to me this is the deciding factor in going for winter tyres (if not tyres+wheels too). In a way, this is much easier than for someone on a UK motoring forum who is asking whether they're justified if they only drive in the UK.
Unfortunately, the OP has a really difficult decision as his is a one-off situation. I'd say that if he can't justify winter tyres, then yes, socks are a reasonable back-up. But they're not going to help in mixed tarmac/slush/snow. You can bet that if he buys a set of winter tyres for the one trip, the weather will be glorious with not a flake of snow on the road anywhere. Conversely .....
The worst drive I've had in recent years was around Lake Geneva in slush but with mini-walls of slushy snow piled-up between the lanes on the Autoroute. Everyone else was driving like it was midsummer and skidding a bit as they changed lanes. I was on winters on an xDrive 3 Series and it was bad enough. I really don't know that I could have driven it on summers, and socks would have been shredded. Plus I would have been The Guy Doing 45Kph when everyone else was rushing to work. It was actually an easier drive over the Jura Mtns. to Pontarlier because at least the road surface was consistently snow above 400m.
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