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Chalet Staff - Wage confusion

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I am estimating (imo) that British Employees in EU winter & summer resorts will drop dramatically after March 2019 probably to around 10% of the current numbers.

edited


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 31-07-17 16:24; edited 1 time in total
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Is a drop of 10% dramatic? I'd say that was a remarkably small drop based on your earlier predictions. Whats caused you to change your view? Toofy Grin
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Mrs May has just put the nail in the coffins of thousands of British Winter & Summer resort workers as from March 2019..

RIP British Seasonaires (EU)
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Ah, so you thought "I am estimating (imo) that British Employees in EU winter & summer resorts will drop dramatically after March 2019 probably to around 90% of the current numbers." meant a drop of 90% and then a quick edit would go un-noticed hide your stupidity?
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@adithorp, Laughing Laughing
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@adithorp, It is a reasonable assumption if EU citizens from march 2019 cannot travel & work freely in the UK.

Did you not hear Mrs Merkels comment after the announcement .. "there will be a cost"
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rolling eyes
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I'd say the likely answer will be in EU Passports, if you want to work in Europe then you'll be able to buy EU citizenship. Anyone who doesn't want to pay their 'respects' will most likely be excluded from the party. It's probably the best that we can expect Puzzled
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Daleskier wrote:
I'd say the likely answer will be in EU Passports, if you want to work in Europe then you'll be able to buy EU citizenship. Anyone who doesn't want to pay their 'respects' will most likely be excluded from the party. It's probably the best that we can expect Puzzled


So how do non-EU citizens work in the EU right now?
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froomie wrote:
Daleskier wrote:
I'd say the likely answer will be in EU Passports, if you want to work in Europe then you'll be able to buy EU citizenship. Anyone who doesn't want to pay their 'respects' will most likely be excluded from the party. It's probably the best that we can expect Puzzled


So how do non-EU citizens work in the EU right now?


They get a work permit, but you are still subject to non EU migration control, so quite a reduction in rights!
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froomie wrote:
Daleskier wrote:
I'd say the likely answer will be in EU Passports, if you want to work in Europe then you'll be able to buy EU citizenship. Anyone who doesn't want to pay their 'respects' will most likely be excluded from the party. It's probably the best that we can expect Puzzled


So how do non-EU citizens work in the EU right now?


Most Australians (at least in ski resorts) seem to do 'black work' from what I've seen.
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@clarky999, they do but they are on gap years,not their job!
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@Daleskier, sure, but the whole thread is about chalet workers!
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froomie wrote:
Daleskier wrote:
I'd say the likely answer will be in EU Passports, if you want to work in Europe then you'll be able to buy EU citizenship. Anyone who doesn't want to pay their 'respects' will most likely be excluded from the party. It's probably the best that we can expect Puzzled


So how do non-EU citizens work in the EU right now?


Most Ozzy´s you see worjkng in Austria are dual Passport (mostly British) holders but I believe Austria,Australia,Canada also has bilateral work experience visas between their countries.

Other Non EU who apply for Jobs (Hotels,Etc). The employer sponsors them and will apply for their Visas.
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clarky999 wrote:
@Daleskier, sure, but the whole thread is about chalet workers!


Precisely. We are talking about 5/6 month seasonal workers, not permanent overseas residents.

What "reduction in rights" would you anticipate for chalet workers? I can see nothing changing from a worker's perspective, they'll continue to get board and lodging, lift pass, equipment hire, a bit of spending cash thrown in and be squeezed into cramped living quarters. All of which they will gleefully accept as it will give them a full season of skiing, partying and enjoying each other's company.
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National insurance contributions, paying tax in pounds, the ability to leave and come back when you want, recognition of driving qualifications, use of British car in Europe, etc. For sure the face of the ski industry that you meet is the chalet host doing a season, and year 1 they probably don't give a dammbut there are plenty of us who are drivers ski techs etc who do this every year as part of their working year. Everyone is on the same deal pretty much. Sorry if I've veared off topic a bit!
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Daleskier wrote:
National insurance contributions, paying tax in pounds, the ability to leave and come back when you want, recognition of driving qualifications, use of British car in Europe, etc. For sure the face of the ski industry that you meet is the chalet host doing a season, and year 1 they probably don't give a dammbut there are plenty of us who are drivers ski techs etc who do this every year as part of their working year. Everyone is on the same deal pretty much. Sorry if I've veared off topic a bit!


So in your vision of Brexit British cars are no longer able to drive in the EU? Non-EU dirving licences no longer valid throughout the entire EU? You actually believe that UK nationals won't even be able to travel to and from the EU at all? How on earth do the citizens of all the other non-EU countries come and go?
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froomie wrote:


Non-EU dirving licences no longer valid throughout the entire EU?


They are valid for a limited time only.

but chalet companies having to comply with French employment legislation will be the big killer.

The lowest paid staff at Club Med in France are on 1000 euros a month, cash. That's after they get food, liftpass and accommodation.
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froomie wrote:

So in your vision of Brexit British cars are no longer able to drive in the EU? Non-EU dirving licences no longer valid throughout the entire EU?


We won't need to as we'll all have self driving cars by then Toofy Grin
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froomie wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
@Daleskier, sure, but the whole thread is about chalet workers!


Precisely. We are talking about 5/6 month seasonal workers, not permanent overseas residents.

What "reduction in rights" would you anticipate for chalet workers? I can see nothing changing from a worker's perspective,


As Davidoff suggests, I think they will lose the automatic right to just come and work and will probably need some sort of permit, which means the companies bringing them will probably find their current 'secondment' loophole closed as they'll have to apply for the permits which will probably be contingent on complying with local employment regulations.

So the workers themselves will probably get a better deal - as long as the TO's are able to pay them minimum wage without raising prices so much they put customers off.
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Not so bothered about the large TO's they'll find a way. I'd be more bothered about the many smaller expat run businesses out there.
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I find this all a bit confusing but maybe because we're talking "EU" but really meaning "France".

What's the deal with Brit chalet holiday set ups in Austria, Switzerland and Italy?
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Hand Wringer wrote:
I find this all a bit confusing but maybe because we're talking "EU" but really meaning "France".

What's the deal with Brit chalet holiday set ups in Austria, Switzerland and Italy?


Switzerland the TO model is basically dead n buried. Austria lives on although competive guesthouses etc have never made the model as big. Italy - no idea but the hotels are so cheap and so good that I'd have thought difficult to make a chalet model stick.
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UK folks will fall into the same category as Non EU i.e there will be two choices.

Legal: Employment through an EU (France,Austria etc) established business. Being on a normal pay scheme (Taxes,Social,Pension, Insurance, Leave etc). This will almost certainly require work visas as the UK appears to be not adopting any Norway or Swiss style model whcih would allow you to work freely.
It is very unlikely that any new EU-UK treaty will be in place March 2019.

Illegal : Black Market Work.

In short: British Chalets companies will have to change their whole business model to conform. i.e they will no longer be "British Chalet" (registered Austrian,French, Italian) companies. British (numbers) workers will be hugely reduced as the current system (paid, taxed in UK) will not be allowed & in the future visas will be required to work in the EU.

Only the clients will be British
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Daleskier wrote:
there are plenty of us who are drivers ski techs etc who do this every year as part of their working year.


What do you do for the rest of the year?
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ClubMed staff work very hard and take the work very seriously, more so than many young chalet staff in my experience. Many of them do not ski as they see the hotel trade as a career. However you cannot compare gap year adolescents and adults who are making a legitimate career in the mountains such as Daleskier

Any Irish grand parents? Many Kiwis use that as a way to work in Europe. My mother still holds her Eire passport after being in UK for sixty years so would consider it myself, but my wife does not so pointless.
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"""Or take European Pubs, which operates bars and restaurants in French resorts frequented by British skiers. The chief executive, Charles Owen, has built his firm on the back of one bit of EU regulation, the Posted Workers Directive, which enables him to send British staff to work in the Alps for up to ten months a year on British pay and conditions. Employing EU workers would add about 40% to his wage bill, he says, and destroy the business. Mr Owen wants to open a subsidiary in Dublin so that he can continue operating in the EU."""


https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21725780-uncertainty-about-britains-departure-eu-deepens-bosses-are-preparing-move
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Quote:

Mr Owen wants to open a subsidiary in Dublin so that he can continue operating in the EU
. The challenge of this is that there simply won't be enough Irish workers if all of the UK companies making use of the PWD set up an Irish company. UK companies seconded around 40,000 people to Europe in 2016. The UK doesn't report by sector, but perhaps as many as 18,000 of those were in leisure / tourism roles with approx 6,000 being in ski. That's a lot of bodies to recruit from a small population.

There is a 1956 agreement that allows secondment of workers between UK & France but it would almost certainly need dusting off and refreshing. If there is a will to do that I think it is very likely that the French would insist on at least some element of French social charges having to be paid. So secondment may still be possible but the cost hit would still be there.

In practice the only beneficiary to any change is going to be the tax man in the country where work is taking place ... if indeed Tour Operators and others can identify a way to restructure their models and pricing that enables them to continue trading at all.
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@ctskifam, I would expect that under freedom of movement, there's nothing to stop him permanently employing e.g. a Spanish waiter in his Irish company and posting them to France temporarily under PWD.
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@under a new name, not quite that simple. This is where interpretation of the PWD gets murky. In theory that should be feasible ... if the Spanish waiter has been living and working in Ireland and paying in to the Irish social security system prior to being seconded. The reality is that a French labour inspector (sticking with the France focus) might struggle to accept a non Irish passport holder being seconded by an Irish employer.
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@ctskifam, I read an article recently that broke non-UK EU employees in the UK down by sector - pretty scary reading - food production for in stance was ~50%, but I can't find it.

I'm not sure that non-cadre staff in France are that much more expensive than seconded UK workers. But it does mean understanding the system. And having a French representation of some description.

I'd get a solid Irish legal opinion and run with PWD in the first instance, myself.
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To return to the OP question regarding NMW, there is some mis-understanding here.
NMW is calculated by our dear HMRC on wages AFTER deductions. So if your accommodation fees/lift passes are deducted from your wages, then your salary should be NMW plus your accommodation fees/lift passes.

We found this out the hard way: as an employer, deducting Childcare vouchers from an employee who not on NMW but who was seeking to save tax and NI on her childcare by using the Childcare Vouchers scheme.
HMRC came in and investigated us, and found we were technically paying below NMW because with Childcare Voucher deductions, the employees' take home was below NMW. They applied the same rules to subsidised food in the café, uniforms and even Court settlements where we were required to make deductions from staffwages to pay their CCJs.

A large number of Day Care Nurseries were investigated last year, and found non-compliant. HMRC find these anomalies, and prey on a sector for a short period of time to maximize revenues. Online tax submissions have reduced their normal income stream.

Reads different when HMRC post it:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-number-of-employers-named-and-shamed-for-underpaying
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The more I read this thread the more I realise no one has a clue what is going to happen. A year ago speaking to mates with chalet companies everyone seemed sanguine. Now everyone is shitting themselves. 12 months later we are only starting to have discussions about the consequences of brexit, that we should have had before the vote.
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@Strax, Not entirely correct there is an allowed offset for accommodation (currently £44.80 a week). No other company benefits (subsidised food, uniforms childcare etc.) count towards minimum wage. I am surprised that CCJ deductions were disallowed as these are NOT company benefits.
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Quote:

The more I read this thread the more I realise no one has a clue what is going to happen.


@Daleskier, that's what it looks like to me, although some online rag today suggested that the EU are worried that the UK actually has a grand (cunning) master plan to be produced at the 11th hours (presumably, with a tail hung on it and called "Badger").
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Quote:

discussions about the consequences of brexit, that we should have had before the vote.

but as the EU is staffed by devious self serving lying rats, how could we ever predict what the consequences would be? All we could ever learn beforehand, is the worst possible propaganda which the Brussels Confederation wished to post. There was only one way to find out the true consequences of Brexit, and its under way just now.

Maybe in 70 years time the Italians and the Greeks will thank us for changing the form of the EU Constitution. Or maybe their memories will be as short as those of the French.
Whether we stay in or whether we leave, its just a bunch of politicians making it up as they go along. Not particularly reassuring in todays political arena.
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Quote:
but as the EU is staffed by devious self serving lying rats,

Unlike our own politicians! Toofy Grin
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Daleskier wrote:
The more I read this thread the more I realise no one has a clue what is going to happen. A year ago speaking to mates with chalet companies everyone seemed sanguine. Now everyone is shitting themselves. 12 months later we are only starting to have discussions about the consequences of brexit, that we should have had before the vote.


Did they honestly not worry about the way things were likely to go before, during and after the vote?

It is actually possible to comply with French employment rules whilst running a chalet, you just don't make much money at all; surely, however, they must see it as a "lifestyle business" anyway?
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@Strax,

Quote:

how could we ever predict what the consequences would be?


I refer you to an actual expert who actually knows what he is talking about... and who predicted the current state of affairs really rather acccurately https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2017/07/31/watch-project-fear-to-project-reality-prof-michael-dougan-one-year-on-from-eu-referendum/
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Quote:

I refer you to an actual expert who actually knows what he is talking about... and who predicted the current state of affairs really rather accurately https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2017/07/31/watch-project-fear-to-project-reality-prof-michael-dougan-one-year-on-from-eu-referendum/

Having watched that through its hard to know whether to knock back a large drink, type up my CV or slash my wrists.

I think many within the ski sector did see the massive challenges that would come about if there was a "Leave" vote. We just didn't think that it would happen or, if it did, that it could possibly be managed this badly.

Sadly staff heavy (and slim margin) tour operating models may just be one of many sectors that takes a good old kicking as a result the omnishambles that is Brexit.

I've decided to go with the drink ...
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