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Chalet Staff - Wage confusion

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hand Wringer wrote:
Quite enjoying the irony of claiming the denial of jobs for Brits (I don't think that will happen, just that it will require additional admin and associated cost relative to hiring those with automatic right to work in the EU) would be racial discrimination whilst also labouring the point of how important it is for Brits on holiday to be in accommodation staffed by Brits rather than foreigners.

froomie wrote:

As several of you rightly point out, staffing chalets isn't simply about who'll do it cheapest.


I'd have thought the willingness of TOs to employ teenagers with no real cooking experience to cater for guests was an indicator that cost was pretty high up on the list of recruitment considerations.


I'm not neccesarily agreeing with it, but it is a fact that Brits booking a catered chalet with UK TOs will expect the chalet to be staffed by Brits. Whether this is right or wrong is another debate - but chalet companies are catering to demand.

Of course cost is a big consideration. Like it is for ANY business. But it's not the only consideration is my point.
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@froomie, I am reasonably sure I pre-date your experience by a couple of decades. The reps and hosts in my resort were actively courted by the ESF (dinners, regular drinks, etc.) so that anyone wanting lessons (or clearly in need of them) would be steered in the appropriate direction. This was in the late 80s/early 90s. Most oif the hosts in town at the time were pretty responsible and sensible most of the time.
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under a new name wrote:
@froomie, I am reasonably sure I pre-date your experience by a couple of decades. The reps and hosts in my resort were actively courted by the ESF (dinners, regular drinks, etc.) so that anyone wanting lessons (or clearly in need of them) would be steered in the appropriate direction. This was in the late 80s/early 90s. Most oif the hosts in town at the time were pretty responsible and sensible most of the time.


I was a rep in the mid 00s. And yes most of the time I was responsible/sensible. However the pub crawl was always a Monday and Tuesdays were always a hosting day. The sum total of the "training" I received before hosting groups of 12 guests was one morning skiing the same 4 runs on the Grande Motte in Tignes in mid-November. We learnt about how to stop at the side of the piste. 4 weeks later and I was guiding guests around Les Arcs. The TO I worked for refused to provide lift passes for anyone during set-up, so I was handed my season pass on the first day of arrivals and my first day's guiding was my first day sking in Les Arcs at all.

Unlike a paid guide, I also came under pressure to take groups up when weather conditions really shuold have meant no guiding at all. The TOs all sold their chalets as including free ski hosting and some customers were adamant that they would be having their 2 days' guiding come hell or high water. Their postion was often that they had booked specifically because of the hosting and would apply serious pressure on the reps to deliver. This meant heading up in whiteouts, brutal cold (-25 and worse) etc. A local mountain guide would have just said "sorry, conditions no good today" and clients get their money back. In hindsight, I should have done the same but being young and inexperienced, I often caved in to demanding guests. Still frightens me to think of what could have happened...
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
Quote:
(bar cloudseeding)


I first read that as 'bar crowdsourcing' - ie the core product was getting people into the bar. Which on reflection may indeed be the purpose of a lads or lasses trip for many... Laughing Laughing
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@froomie, your clients were clearly a hardier bunch than mine. Having learned in Scotland it was usually me telling them that really it would be fine "higher up" and that it would probably "burn off".

I also got a tad more "training"...but not much more. Just a day around the area and then a day shadowing the more experienced guide. (actually, I may not even have done that).
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under a new name wrote:
@froomie, your clients were clearly a hardier bunch than mine. Having learned in Scotland it was usually me telling them that really it would be fine "higher up" and that it would probably "burn off".

I also got a tad more "training"...but not much more. Just a day around the area and then a day shadowing the more experienced guide. (actually, I may not even have done that).


Wasn't like that every time. There were plenty of days when I'd rock up at the main lifts on a horrid Monday morning and be overjoyed to find no-one waiting for me. Nice bit of paperwork in a warm office or perhaps even back to bed.

However there were times when I tried to subtly hint that perhaps it wasn't the best day for it which got met with grumbles or outright complaints about having "paid" for the service. I'm still lucky enough to ski 4 or 5 times a season so it would never be me pressuring the rep up the hill but for people who get 1 week a year and spend £1k+ for it, I can understand why you'd want to squeeze every last drop of value out...
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Quote:

I can understand why you'd want to squeeze every last drop of value out


Sure.
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froomie wrote:

Finally picnics. Would you walk into ANY restaurant anywhere in your home town, sit down and unwrap your sandwiches from home and expect no-one to say anything? These are businesses with a lot of staff and extraordinary overheads - any idea how much it costs to deliver a week's supplies to the top of any given peak?


This is quite normal in German Gaststštte and share it with other people !
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@froomie, I totally understand the economics of bar crawls and hence the TO staff enthusiasm for signing up as many people as possible. I also remember on the odd occasion that I succumbed my party never making it to the end of said crawl because after a couple of tedious bars we would find one we liked and my party would then stay in it rather than risk another crappy bar.

Re guiding - it's more that the French attitude is these people need to be shown round a piste so they should be paying us for it. Ignoring the fact that a) instruction should properly be a different service with some added value beyond human piste map and b) the only reason TO punters would be with the guide was because they weren't paying anything extra for it.
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Quote:

picnics


do you mean in a restaurant (including on its terrace) - or just on a handy rock in the middle of nowhere? The latter being completely acceptable.
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under a new name wrote:
Quote:

picnics


do you mean in a restaurant (including on its terrace) - or just on a handy rock in the middle of nowhere? The latter being completely acceptable.


Precisely. On a rock or anywhere you choose that isn't someone else's business. That's the very definition of a picnic for me.

But don't walk into a mountain restaurant with a sandwich you made at breakfast and compain about not being allowed to eat it.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@froomie
Re guiding - it's more that the French attitude is these people need to be shown round a piste so they should be paying us for it. Ignoring the fact that a) instruction should properly be a different service with some added value beyond human piste map and b) the only reason TO punters would be with the guide was because they weren't paying anything extra for it.


There's never been any suggestion that it's got anything to do with a "French" attitude. Anybody of any nationality with the correct qualifications is entitled to instruct or guide in any French resort. There are hundreds/thousands of foreign instructor/guides who are fully qualified and operate legally in French resorts.

High mountains, whether on or off piste, are hazrdous environments. Why on earth should a totally inexperienced rep for a chalet company whose only qualifications are a TO jacket and some bravado be guiding groups of mixed abilites around such places?
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under a new name wrote:
Quote:

picnics


do you mean in a restaurant (including on its terrace) - or just on a handy rock in the middle of nowhere? The latter being completely acceptable.

... or even in a picnic room.
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@froomie, hmmm, must take some issue there.

Do you really mean "high mountains"? in which case there are rarely pistes, frequently glaciers and if you really don't know what you're doing and where you're going you have a shorter than average life span in front of you.

Or do you mean the typical UK TO host habitat - pisted, controlled, patrolled and the worst thing that a reasonably sensible host is going to do is miss the last lift home. My main tasks were two fold: 1. ensure the guests never had to think for themselves, being on holiday and all and 2. finding a nice spot for lunch. Not getting lost was expected as a free bonus extra. Plus it was in the PdS so I was pretty useful, if I do say do myself.

We had very firm rules about never taking guests off piste. And I can freely swear that I never did. Nothing to prevent a conversation that a certain pitch was a well known powder gem, and then having to chase after the pesky guests who all decided they were going to poach it.
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@froomie, I'm with UANN they're pistes not the Eiger Nordwald. If you are vaguely competent I'd say it takes a max of a day to get pretty acquainted with the layout if an area and maybe a couple more days of skiing enough stuff to know whether tbe resort tends toward over or undergrading its runs and identify any obvious nightmare spots. The job was basically human piste map.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@froomie, I'm with UANN they're pistes not the Eiger Nordwald.


How's the tree skiing up there wink
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clarky999 wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@froomie, I'm with UANN they're pistes not the Eiger Nordwald.


How's the tree skiing up there wink


Very good - now I can't correct my typo without looking like an asshole wink
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clarky999 wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@froomie, I'm with UANN they're pistes not the Eiger Nordwald.


How's the tree skiing up there wink


Very good - now I can't correct my typo without looking like an asshole wink
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Laughing
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Quote:

The job was basically human piste map


And bar/restaurant guide. A̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶c̶c̶a̶s̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶ ̶g̶i̶g̶o̶l̶o̶.
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Getting back on track ...

IF Brexit happens and Brits are allowed to work in t mean the EU (with new arrangements) it will mean they will be working with much better conditions. Pay, Social , Pension, Sick Pay , Days Off, Rights.
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stanton wrote:
Getting back on track ...

IF Brexit happens and Brits are allowed to work in t mean the EU (with new arrangements) it will mean they will be working with much better conditions. Pay, Social , Pension, Sick Pay , Days Off, Rights.


Which means that the EU residents will be paying more and the Brits will be earning more.
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Firstly, I'd be extremely surprised if British TOs in France would hire on anything other than seasonal contracts, meaning the employees will not be getting benefits such as sick pay or any additional days off to the ones they already get.

Secondly, this also assumes that the jobs will still exist, and that will depend on whether operators can cope with a near doubling of their staff costs.
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Well it looks like UK Passport holders NOW only have ONLY two seasons left to enjoy working in the EU freely.

All the rules governing your Ski Careers has just been changed by your Government.


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40734504
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Hand Wringer wrote:
Firstly, I'd be extremely surprised if British TOs in France would hire on anything other than seasonal contracts, meaning the employees will not be getting benefits such as sick pay or any additional days off to the ones they already get.


Spot on. A short-term contract will still be a short-term contract, regardless of rules around freedom of movement, which is a whole different debate.

@stanton To suggest that all seasonal work in ski resorts will cease for all Brits after Brexit is nonsense. Club Med for example are a large French TO employing a multitude of nationalities. Among others, their seasonal staff in French resorts include huge numbers of Brazilians, Chinese, Russians, Americans. They are all employed on very similar terms to UK chalet staff - full board and lodging, ski pass, equipment + a small wage on top. Non-EU citizens are able to work alongside EU citizens.[/quote]
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froomie wrote:

@stanton To suggest that all seasonal work in ski resorts will cease for all Brits after Brexit is nonsense. Club Med for example are a large French TO employing a multitude of nationalities. Among others, their seasonal staff in French resorts include huge numbers of Brazilians, Chinese, Russians, Americans. They are all employed on very similar terms to UK chalet staff - full board and lodging, ski pass, equipment + a small wage on top. Non-EU citizens are able to work alongside EU citizens.
[/quote]

That is different those contrys treatys have been negotiated. They can obtain visas no problem.

To suddenly drop out of a fundamental pillar of a European Treaty without any replacement & no new treaty in sight UK citizens living & working rights will most likely cease unless UK citizens have been living in an EU country for five years or more.

It really is the case & no one on this forum seems to understand what is happening to your freedom of movement working rights after March 2019 ...

ONce again.. There is no new treaty in force & CANNOT be negotiated until the UK has left he EU .
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stanton wrote:

It really is the case & no one on this forum seems to understand what is happening to your freedom of movement working rights after March 2019 ...

ONce again.. There is no new treaty in force & CANNOT be negotiated until the UK has left he EU .


You speak with a great deal of certainty about things when not even the people doing the negotiating know the answers yet.

I expect that part of the Brexit negotiations will cover things like this. Seems unlikely to me that we'd get to a situation where on Brexit +1 day it is becomes impossible for any UK national to work anywhere within the EU.
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Quote:

Seems unlikely to me that we'd get to a situation where on Brexit +1 day it is becomes impossible for any UK national to work anywhere within the EU


@froomie, right now, with the information publicly available and the government-in-power that's in place, that exactly what is the most likely result.
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You know it makes sense.
under a new name wrote:
Quote:

Seems unlikely to me that we'd get to a situation where on Brexit +1 day it is becomes impossible for any UK national to work anywhere within the EU


@froomie, right now, with the information publicly available and the government-in-power that's in place, that exactly what is the most likely result.


Correct - if negotiations ended today. Which they emphatically don't.
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@froomie, even if they started today, ...

Her Maj.'s Govt. has not got the first clue.

"The Brexit negotiations are faltering and the British governmentís hopes of opening up talks on a future trade deal with the EU this autumn are increasingly likely to be dashed, the EUís chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has reported back to the blocís member states."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/27/early-talks-on-post-brexit-trade-deal-increasingly-unlikely

Anyway, now we are really off topic!
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under a new name wrote:
@froomie, even if they started today, ...

Her Maj.'s Govt. has not got the first clue.

"The Brexit negotiations are faltering and the British governmentís hopes of opening up talks on a future trade deal with the EU this autumn are increasingly likely to be dashed, the EUís chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has reported back to the blocís member states."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/27/early-talks-on-post-brexit-trade-deal-increasingly-unlikely

Anyway, now we are really off topic!


I'm sure I could find you an article in a different newspaper that's heavily biased in a different direction that suggests that we'll get a spanking brilliant deal. But that would be pointless.
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beh voila, should be easy for Chalet owners post 2019 Happy

https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F33051

-- I've just checked with Club Med and they comply with all French regulations including pay and work permits for foreign staff.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 27-07-17 17:07; edited 1 time in total
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@froomie, here's Sky snooze take on it, much the same and from an outlet indeed heavily biased in the opposite direction.

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-negotiator-warns-of-possible-delays-to-brexit-talks-10963798

Facts don't have biases.
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stanton wrote:
ONce again.. There is no new treaty in force & CANNOT be negotiated until the UK has left he EU .


Bollix. The FOM negotiations are PART OF the Brexit negotiations. What we can't do (officially) is agree trade deals until it's over.
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The only facts reported here are quotes i.e. it is a fact that a certain person said this. The quotes themselves are one individual's subjective (biased) opinion.

And the quotes themselves are littered with words like "could, appeared, expected, would". No certainty from either side because neither, quite rightly, can possibly be certain of how a deal will look in 18 months' time.

So yes, your quotes are facts in so much as someone said them, but that doesn't make that person's opinion a fact.
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@froomie, on balance the govt are quite clearly put of their depth.

You may quote me on that.
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under a new name wrote:
@froomie, even if they started today, ...

Her Maj.'s Govt. has not got the first clue.

"The Brexit negotiations are faltering and the British governmentís hopes of opening up talks on a future trade deal with the EU this autumn are increasingly likely to be dashed, the EUís chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has reported back to the blocís member states."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/27/early-talks-on-post-brexit-trade-deal-increasingly-unlikely

Anyway, now we are really off topic!


Oooh. When do you reckon we'll be out then?
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@achilles, I have absolutely no idea. Herr May & co. clearly making a pig's back bottom of the whole thing, so unnecessary, hey ho... #shipoffools #UKistwatted
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@under a new name, Hmm. As you said, off topic, really. I should not have bitten. Toofy Grin
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@achilles, heh heh heh Twisted Evil
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