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Another Avalanche

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Austria this time in Schmirntal, three reported killed. Sad Sad Sad
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
HUGE too. Part of an 8 person ski touring group, all non-Austrian: http://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2831196/





Sad
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
damn...

RIP.
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Sad
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Something that big, from such a wide amount of mountain, was caused by an earthquake.
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RIP
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Holy poo-poo
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Sad news. There's a video here of same slopes slipping from last year - large avi then too. about 01:30 to see avi.
http://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2757594/


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Wed 15-03-17 16:24; edited 1 time in total
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bar shaker wrote:
Something that big, from such a wide amount of mountain, was caused by an earthquake.

Really? Puzzled
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no, see the video in the link I posted
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That is a huge slide
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sugarmoma666 wrote:
bar shaker wrote:
Something that big, from such a wide amount of mountain, was caused by an earthquake.

Really? Puzzled


No. It was the old snow that was lying around rotting in the open from November to mid-January.

To give a bit of background to the current situation:

- The old snow has been problematic and catching people out all season, though less so lately
- Last weekend was insane, and the most active avalanche cycle in 20 years according to the Tirol Avalanche Commission - many natural and triggered slides everywhere on all aspects
- Stability has been improving all week, with warm temperatures and clear nights - level 2 above 2200m and level 1 below today
- At 2400m at just after midday on a north-facing slope, I *doubt* (though wasn't there or even skiing today) temperatures would have been particularly concerning.
- Slope is 40° in places as it rolls over

Apparently the slope has a history of going big, but given the conditions I doubt many people would have looked at it and judged it particularly unsafe - and certainly not that it would it go like that. I suspect many would have actually considered today a good day to start moving onto steeper terrain, given lots of dangerous slopes already cleaned themselves out last weekend and improving stability. Obviously not the most conservative choice of terrain, but IMO not really pushing the boat out either.

Unfortunately these sort of 'old snow problem' avalanche are simply inherently very unpredictable and difficult to identify, and the only way to mitigate the risk is to ski very conservatively (under 25°) all the time, all season, in a year when the problem exists. If you haven't been following the problem and keeping track of condition on various faces since autumn, you've got no chance of knowing.
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Blimey, that's huge 😳

Surprised (and thankful) that anyone survived that!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
waynos wrote:
Sad news. There's a video here of same slopes slipping from last year - large avi then too. about 01:30 to see avi.
http://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2757594/


OK, maybe not a tremor.

I've never seen so much of a mountain jigsaw in one go. Shocked
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Nowhere to hide, no escape route when the whole hillside goes. As an old wise mountain guide once told me "If there are no trees, below the treeline, ask yourself why".
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Man that thing propagated F-A-S-T!!! Shocked
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Sad news, and worrying, especially given the more settled conditions and apparent lower risk category.

@clarky999, can you explain the old/rotting snow issue which you've mentioned? I have done some avvy training several years ago (though re climbing rather than skiing) and thought that old snow generally stabilised over time. Sorry if I'm being thick but I would have judged those conditions as you described them potentially lower risk, so I'm keen to improve my knowledge.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
PowderAdict wrote:
Nowhere to hide, no escape route when the whole hillside goes. As an old wise mountain guide once told me "If there are no trees, below the treeline, ask yourself why".


Good advice to have a second think, but without some local knowledge of what's beneath the snow, you're going to have a lot of false positives. Could be rock or a scree slope, or summer pasture (OK, unlikely on 40° slope)

Some of the pictures on the Austrian news report were very sobering. Extremely deep burials, looks like a nasty terrain trap mid-slope.
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So so sad.
Grizzler wrote:
apparent lower risk category.
In the second news item google-translate gives this (perhaps someone here can give a better translation):
Peter Veider, Managing Director of Tiroler Bergrettung: "This is a tour [which I interpret as being a route] for us, which is not at all possible in these circumstances. The slope is 40 degrees steep, rocky, northerly and it is level three. That almost gives an avalanche guarantee."
I don't know what the level was this morning, but from what I understand, levels need to be interpreted according to the terrain you are considering and don't necessarily apply evenly across all the mountains.
Quote:
old snow generally stabilised over time
I thought so too but I think it's the presence of weak layers that is behind many of the problems this season. I believe this was predicted back in December if not earlier.
Please do correct me folks if I'm mistaken in the above - I'm trying to learn about the risks and may be drawing wrong conclusions.
@PowderAdict, that's another adage that I'm going to tuck away for future use.
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Grizzler wrote:
Sad news, and worrying, especially given the more settled conditions and apparent lower risk category.

@clarky999, can you explain the old/rotting snow issue which you've mentioned? I have done some avvy training several years ago (though re climbing rather than skiing) and thought that old snow generally stabilised over time. Sorry if I'm being thick but I would have judged those conditions as you described them potentially lower risk, so I'm keen to improve my knowledge.

Snowed early in the season then very little snow after that leaving the thin snowpack exposed to the elements creating a weak layer when a new dump landed on it
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The avy level was 2 not 3 today Puzzled

Edit - I get it, the second link is from last year when the Avi level was higher.




@Grizzler,
More info on old snow here .....
https://lawine.tirol.gv.at/en/basics/avalanche-problems/


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 15-03-17 19:21; edited 1 time in total
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Thanks @DB that's a good site.

Level 2 on here https://lawine.tirol.gv.at/en/basics/dangerscale/ away from shallow slopes doesn't sound too reassuring to me Sad
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The avalanche warning levels are very general and certain slopes are often much more dangerous than the norm and the avi reports would suggest. As I said on the Tignes avalanche thread - historically certain slopes are known to be much more risky so the locals stay away. Maybe this is one of those slopes as for 2 years in succession foreign groups have been hit by major avalanches.

Three victims were buried over 8m deep while the 4th victim was found at 12m under the snow, poor souls had no chance RIP.

The French group last year were lucky even though the avalanche level was 3, the media reports are suggesting that the group was from Switzerland this time.
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More images: Shocked Sad



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clarky999 wrote:
More images: Shocked Sad




It looks such a complex piece of terrain. With potential trigger points anywhere
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Mother hucker wrote:
It looks such a complex piece of terrain. With potential trigger points anywhere

Yes, particularly now it's had the snow stripped off it. I expect it must have looked very welcoming before with the extremes smoothed over with snow - are there any pics of that?
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PowderAdict wrote:
Nowhere to hide, no escape route when the whole hillside goes. As an old wise mountain guide once told me "If there are no trees, below the treeline, ask yourself why".


Wise words.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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motyl wrote:
Mother hucker wrote:
It looks such a complex piece of terrain. With potential trigger points anywhere

Yes, particularly now it's had the snow stripped off it. I expect it must have looked very welcoming before with the extremes smoothed over with snow - are there any pics of that?

This is very true. That's why I use Google earth and a map to plan out where I go before I ski anything. The lack of trees scares me
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I'm not sure it does look so welcoming in the video from last year. Clearly steep and very uneven terrain with exposed rocks (thus very variable depths etc., and a big old gully at the bottom. And of course, no trees.

Maybe one thing going with an old, experienced local guide ... but still ...
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In @clarky999's top picture, you can see avi fences on the SW side, on a much less steep part of the mountain. The face in question looks an avi certainty at that steepness, regardless of the direction it faces.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Is that bit off piste or are there runs on it?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@bambionskiis, which bit? That face? No chance.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
That second photo - the holes - is possibly one of the most sobering things I've ever seen.
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@Patriciaholm, I agree.
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bambionskiis wrote:
Is that bit off piste or are there runs on it?


It's not a resort at all, you have to ski tour to get there
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Patriciaholm wrote:
That second photo - the holes - is possibly one of the most sobering things I've ever seen.


Agreed. Brings home the "last role of the dice" nature of the protection provided by the holy trinity.
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clarky999 wrote:
bambionskiis wrote:
Is that bit off piste or are there runs on it?


It's not a resort at all, you have to ski tour to get there


Ah right, that makes sense. Referring back to an earlier comment, I would be pretty angry if I lost a loved one to this in a place where the locals wouldn't go because it is too dangerous.

Tragic for all involved.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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Here's the avalanche report in German.
http://lawinenwarndienst.blogspot.co.at/
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Is'nt about time all this 'off piste marketing' is stopped?
In a way there is some guilt here! There are just to many tourists who are not a enough aware, and will never be.
Alpine marketing promoting off-piste skiing really is to blame!
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Langerzug wrote:
Is'nt about time all this 'off piste marketing' is stopped?
In a way there is some guilt here! There are just to many tourists who are not a enough aware, and will never be.
Alpine marketing promoting off-piste skiing really is to blame!


I think the resorts need to take way more responsibility for promoting the safety side as well as the nice powder pictures (all the brands do promote safety, as far as I can see, but very very few resorts).

When was the last time a resort posted the daily avalanche report on Facebook, or that conditions are particularly dangerous, or that there was in incident today? They all seem terrified of the bad PR, but personally I just don't buy that discussing avalanches - something that even the most unaware are aware DO happen in the mountains - would put tourists off. There are some resorts that won't even discuss their avalanche control strategy and work, as they think that recognising they need to do that work would scare tourists away...

Actually I do think it's pretty disgraceful. And I think it's old-fashioned and outdated from a resort marketing perspective too, and that a lot of opportunities are being missed.

-----

Though I don't think any of that applies in case, where the victims were Swiss ski tourers who were very likely pretty experienced.
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