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Comments on my technique or....er...the lack of it!

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi guys,

This is where I lay my soul bare to all to tear to pieces!

I'm 53 and have skied for one week a season for the last three years, prior to that i had a couple of week back in the 1970's.

I'm confident and get around ok but i'm having trouble getting over onto my edges.

Any pointers and or tips will be gratefully received.

i'm off again for 4 days to Seefeld and want to use this time practising/honing my technique.

Here's a short Vid for you all to laugh at rolling eyes


http://youtube.com/v/3EFuVoUzhgs
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I love the little arm flap at the start of each turn....does it help with unweighting. wink


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 26-02-17 14:58; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
You're riding on the tails of your skis, and you're pushing your skis sideways at the start of the turn. These are probably related. You need to use a more effective movement at the start of the turn, so focus on standing on the outside ski at the start of each turn.
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rob@rar wrote:
You're riding on the tails of your skis, and you're pushing your skis sideways at the start of the turn. These are probably related. You need to use a more effective movement at the start of the turn, so focus on standing on the outside ski at the start of each turn.


For my own understanding, are you basically saying he needs to get his weight forward - e.g might it (partially) help to get his hands forward as opposed to out to the sides? And does a 'more effective movement at the start of the turn' partly mean committing to the turn more?
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@foxtrotzulu, he is skiing "in the back seat" so does need to get further forward, but I don't think that the phrase "get your weight forward" is often that helpful as people try to interpret that in terms of a fixed stance and it's difficult to change to a more balanced position. IME trying to change the movement patterns that people make is far more likely to result in better fore/aft balance. As an aside, picking the hands up in front of you can result in a worse fore/aft position as often as it results in an improved position. So for these reasons and more I think working on the movement that he makes at the start of the turn is key to taking his skiing up a notch. The effective movement he needs to make is to stand on his skis at the start of the turn (focusing on his outside ski) rather than push them sideways. At the moment the skis, especially the tails, get pushed sideways, meaning no grip until the fall line or later. This is very common, and while it's not a big problem on relatively gentle terrain with benign snow, it starts to become an issue when you want to ski steeper terrain, higher speeds, icy snow, deep snow or bumpy snow. It's there No.1 issue that I see with intermediate skiers, and the key reason they stay on that plateau.
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Quote:

picking the hands up in front of you can result in a worse fore/aft position

...as this can lead to sticking your back bottom out in the other direction. See the other thread for the antidote for this wink
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musher wrote:
Quote:

picking the hands up in front of you can result in a worse fore/aft position

...as this can lead to sticking your back bottom out in the other direction. See the other thread for the antidote for this wink
Fornicate, not defecate? That's another bit of advice I've never understood.
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Trying to be a bit more helpful than my initial post...and bearing in mind I'm not an Instructor....here are my thoughts:

WHAT I SEE:

- I think you have a hangover from the 70s, which has you up unweighting to change edges...and this effort to get light on initiation, has you raising your hands to aid with getting light (and possibly help with timing).
- Once the skis have got light, you then turn with a strong twist of the feet, giving Z turns (rather than S turns) ie.you are turning the skis, rather than have the skis turn you.
- As has been said, your weight is on your heels, which makes proper initiation almost impossible.

WHAT TO DO

Follow Rob's advice about getting the weight onto the uphill ski early and initiating the turn by getting forward and across, with little rotary movement. This usually needs lessons to achieve.

A good drill to test if you are getting the hang of it - lift tail of downhill ski just prior to turning and start the turn from the uphill one.
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Thanks guys, some great points here to work on, and at least i've been called an intermediate!! my hand position is a new thing for me, i'm trying to keep both hands in view to prevent leaving the pole plant behind and thereby rotate the upper body the wrong way....if that makes sense. So it sounds like i need to push the hands forward a bit more and not so wide, tuck my back bottom in, i assume that's what @rob@rar, means by fornicating! In the words for Harold Harb, i'm gonna try more flexing and tipping. i'll try to post my next vid in four weeks after the trip to Seefeld, which will hopefully see some improvement.
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@Old Fartbag, how rude....that is my attempt at a pole plant rolling eyes
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gazzaredcruiser wrote:
So it sounds like i need to push the hands forward a bit more and not so wide, tuck my back bottom in, i assume that's what @rob@rar, means by fornicating!
That's a lot of things to think about at the same time, which is one of the reasons I never use the fornicating analogy. Focus on getting the start of your turns sorted as that is the fundamental thing you need to improve. Once that is working consistently well you can fine tune the other things mentioned here, if they haven't sorted themselves out in the meantime.
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gazzaredcruiser wrote:
Thanks guys, some great points here to work on, and at least i've been called an intermediate!! my hand position is a new thing for me, i'm trying to keep both hands in view to prevent leaving the pole plant behind and thereby rotate the upper body the wrong way....if that makes sense. So it sounds like i need to push the hands forward a bit more and not so wide, tuck my back bottom in, i assume that's what @rob@rar, means by fornicating! In the words for Harold Harb, i'm gonna try more flexing and tipping. i'll try to post my next vid in four weeks after the trip to Seefeld, which will hopefully see some improvement.

There is nothing wrong with keeping the hands in view, as long as they don't raise and lower independently of the body....any unnecessary movement of the upper body can throw your skiing off.
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@rob@rar, ok so stand on the new downhill ski earlier and as @Old Fartbag, suggests unweight the downhill ski prior to that. I guess unweighting the down ski leaves only one place to go i.e. the new downhill ski.
clutch and accelerator as Darren Turner would say!

It's amazing as i'm always looking to feel my shins in the front of the boot in an effort to keep out of the back seat. this is the first video i'm ever seen of my skiing and it's pretty sobering! tail swishing like mad! and back seat as you say. Should i look to flex my legs more? To get out of the back seat, will tucking in my asrs€ do the trick?
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@gazzaredcruiser, You are FranzKlammer and I claim my £5
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@red 27, well no.....surely you can see i'm far more sartorial than Franz, although there is a striking similarity in our skiing styles. i've missed Franz and his regular posts....is he ok ?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
gazzaredcruiser wrote:
@Old Fartbag, how rude....that is my attempt at a pole plant rolling eyes

It was a bit. Embarassed

Pole planting can help in certain circumstances, if done correctly, but hinder in others....and with modern skiing, a light pole touch or even none at all can be better.

If you do use a pole plant, the pole is brought forward with a "cocking" of the wrist and is planted with the lowering of the body (not because you do a separate arm movement). It is my understanding that solid pole plants are now only really used in moguls, jump turns, short swings or certain turns off piste.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
gazzaredcruiser wrote:
@red 27, well no.....surely you can see i'm far more sartorial than Franz,


Right, yes indeed, at second glance I can see that... Franz wears/wore hideously clashing colour combos whereas you are elegant and understated in Neon Green coat and Canary Yellow strides wink

You're skiing looks excellent to me - no need to tinker with the technique at all


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 26-02-17 21:04; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Your upper body seems very stiff, and you're turning it the whole way across the hill with your skis, you need to be a little more relaxed and have a little more "pivot" between upper and lower body, so your shoulders are facing down the hill a bit more, rather than following the skis. This will make you feel less like you're about to topple over when you're getting on your edges
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@red 27, i'm the group beacon......wearing the bright combo keeps the flock together! As for my skiing......you should have gone to spec savers! but thanks anyway. Very Happy
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gazzaredcruiser wrote:

It's amazing as i'm always looking to feel my shins in the front of the boot in an effort to keep out of the back seat. this is the first video i'm ever seen of my skiing and it's pretty sobering! tail swishing like mad! and back seat as you say. Should i look to flex my legs more? To get out of the back seat, will tucking in my asrs€ do the trick?
How much flex are you using at the ankles...? Are your shins mostly upright...?
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you are not using your edges effectively and could use more ankle flex when turning. there are lots of things you could work including posture but mostly you need to work on your getting your legs working to pressurize your skis is where you should start.
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@Bennisboy, thanks, if the terrain gets steep and icy I usually try almost braquage turns straight down the fall line and keep my chest facing downhill, but when the pistes gets easier i lapse into the lazy style you can see in the video clip.
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@gazzaredcruiser, this is childish but we have the same number of posts, no wait I have one more I win Madeye-Smiley
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@Grandma Sunshine,
Quote:

you are not using your edges effectively
Is this a pre-recorded message?
Toofy Grin
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a very common fault committed by a multitude of offenders, I think the evidence speaks for itself in this case mi'lud Toofy Grin
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If you can try and get some private lessons if time and finances allow.
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Grandma Sunshine wrote:
@gazzaredcruiser, this is childish but we have the same number of posts, no wait I have one more I win Madeye-Smiley


I think I have you on post count*...but I know fek all about teaching someone technique. It looks a bit twisty hippy to me. Exactly what I do when it is icy.....heel brakes.

*I'm probably not even in the top 100. Happy
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@Thornyhill, yeah you definitely have me on post count no way going to catch you
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You know it makes sense.
@Grandma Sunshine, @Thornyhill, ah hem, this thread is all about me me me! now get back to making me an expert skier Laughing
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@gazzaredcruiser, if you're travelling across a slope and stand on your uphill ski there are a few things you can do. One of them is to move your hips up the hill so that you are standing on the uphill edge of the ski. If you do that you will carry on travelling across the slope. Another thing you can do is to move your hips down the hill, so that the ski flattens and then rolls onto its downhill edge. If you are still pressuring it (standing on it) it will then start to turn towards the fall line (clever eh?). If you make sure that the downhill (i.e. the inside ski of what is becoming a turn) ski keeps out of the way - as it should do if you have moved your hips so that it too has tipped over onto the little toe edge then all you have to do is let it happen Toofy Grin (well, more or less..).

Have a look at this skier:-


http://youtube.com/v/9sOBO4Dw-BA

In the first sequence she is using rotation of her legs to turn relatively flat skis - you can see from the tracks that they are "fanning" across the snow - although it may not look as though she is doing much of anything because a) this is a gentle slope and b) she is highly skilled, has good posture/stance and is relaxed.
In the second and third sequences she has eliminated this leg rotation and is simply pressuring the uphill ski (not perhaps visibly obvious, but I'm useless at analysing these things) and allowing her hips to move across as described above. Note that with this minimal physical input the skis actually take quite a long time to turn into and across the fall line - so patience and a gentle slope are key ingredients when starting to do this Toofy Grin

Trying to provide a visual aid (not another NoBo visual aid this time Madeye-Smiley ) to complement what rob@rar says above. (well I hope it does, I'm sure he'll say if it doesn't Laughing )
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Yoda wrote:
Trying to provide a visual aid (not another NoBo visual aid this time Madeye-Smiley ) to complement what rob@rar says above. (well I hope it does, I'm sure he'll say if it doesn't Laughing )
That's a nice demo from Deirdre (I think it's her). Notice that at the start of her turns her skis never change direction suddenly. It's a much smoother movement than the OP was making in his video. She simply stands on her skis (not pushes them sideways), changes edges and smoothly changes her balance so she gradually transfers more weight to her outside ski as the pressure builds up around the turn.

If you're on terrain that is relatively gentle focuses on lateral movement of the hips can be very powerful. I sometimes setup this as a drill where the skier does not have poles but puts their hands on their hips to help them focus moving that part of their body across their skis to help change edges cleanly, but not too anything else. Great drill, and the usual reaction is "wow, the skis turned even though I didn't do anything..."
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@gazzaredcruiser, Could you get to Hemel Hempstead before your next trip?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It maybe be subtle, but to my personal eye, Deidre (yes, sure it's her) in her carved turns is building up outside ski pressure by removing / lifting / retracting inside leg just so slightly thus cleverly increasing pressure to outside ski - look and you can see her internal knee raise just a little. In essence, it's a controlled form of 'toppling' allowing a subtle, gentle and very controlled edge change governed / utilising gravity alone. That's how i see it.

@gazzaredcruiser, Apart from that, in agreement with rob@rar
Quote:
The effective movement he needs to make is to stand on his skis at the start of the turn (focusing on his outside ski) rather than push them sideways.
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Tim Heeney wrote:
It maybe be subtle, but to my personal eye, Deidre (yes, sure it's her) in her carved turns is building up outside ski pressure by [color=blue]removing / lifting / retracting inside leg
Yes, that's going on, but if you focus on the outside leg at the start of each turn you'll see a small extension, probably equal in movement to the inside leg retraction. As you say, its a smooth, subtle movement, with very little drama (as you would expect on such low angle terrain).
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@Yoda, @rob@rar, @Tim Heeney, well i'm going to Seefeld for my wife, lots of easy blues for her to learn on. whilst she is in ski school i'm going to practice on the easy pistes.

like golf, i understand the dynamics of the swing, or in this case what you are all trying to tell me, so i'll enjoy trying to but it into practice.

i'll post the results, thanks for the input.
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gazzaredcruiser wrote:


like golf, i understand the dynamics of the swing, or in this case what you are all trying to tell me, so i'll enjoy trying to but it into practice.

If you can successfully (and reliably) implement the vagaries of the Golf swing, you should be a single handicap skier in no time. Toofy Grin
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@kitenski, haven't got the time to get there, unfortunately.
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@rob@rar, yes Rob, i see it now exactly as you say...
Quote:

if you focus on the outside leg at the start of each turn you'll see a small extension, probably equal in movement to the inside leg retraction. As you say, its a smooth, subtle movement, with very little drama (as you would expect on such low angle terrain).


For me i have a BIG mental problem with 'focus on lateral movement of the hips' especially when i'm told to keep equal pressure on each ski - sorry, does not compute in my world.
For me the mental imagery of 'Outside Long Leg and Inside Short Leg' works better as it's exactly what i'm doing and removes the ' keeping equal pressure on both skis' and any lateral hip movement conundrum out of my feeble, jumbled and confused mind... Confused


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 28-02-17 1:01; edited 1 time in total
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Old Fartbag wrote:
gazzaredcruiser wrote:


like golf, i understand the dynamics of the swing, or in this case what you are all trying to tell me, so i'll enjoy trying to but it into practice.

If you can successfully (and reliably) implement the vagaries of the Golf swing, you should be a single handicap skier in no time. Toofy Grin


I used to play off 4. Golf is just a mindf**k of a game. Skiing is far far easier on the grey matter.
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@Tim Heeney, yes, I like long leg/short leg. Certainly works for me, and sometimes when I'm teaching. Who is telling you equal pressure on both skis?
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