 Poster: A snowHead
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I would start with only the short runs not being groomed, leave a few long fast free ways, anyway it is a good skill test to have a hard bashed, Iced over steep run. Different skill set . I also wouldn't stop the bashing altogether, . When I started skiing there were a few resorts that only bashed a piste every few days, the pistes were bashed on rota, so at any time there were several pistes that wouldn't be bashed, and some fresh pistes. Perhaps that would keep everyone happy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I genuinely don't understand this argument. It's a bit like hard-core off-roaders suggesting that green-laneing is such fun that we should rip up all the Tarmac on the M1. If you want lumpy snow then why not go off-piste? Is it any different from someone else saying that because pistes are safer we should bash the entire mountain and make sure no areas are left un-Pisted?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I genuinely don't understand this argument. It's a bit like hard-core off-roaders suggesting that green-laneing is such fun that we should rip up all the Tarmac on the M1. If you want lumpy snow then why not go off-piste? Is it any different from someone else saying that because pistes are safer we should bash the entire mountain and make sure no areas are left un-Pisted? |
Not that I'd argue we should stop grooming pistes (though personally I wouldn't complain  ) it's very easy to say 'just go offpiste,' but what about people who want to ski ungroomed snow without having to deal with avalanche danger and obstacles under the snow, and those first learning to ski 'wild' snow who would be better concentrating on ski technique than safety?
I don't think it's a particularly unreasonable suggestion to want some sort of half way house where people can learn to *ski* offpiste and natural snow without having to simultaneously learn to manage all the other risks. Ie an avalanche controlled ungroomed slope or two (or ideally more like 25% of the pistes, as otherwise inevitably they will be so highly trafficked they'll be perpetual bump fields rather than 'natural') that have been cleared of fallen trees and rocks and are marked and patrolled in the manner of a piste.
Even with current ski routes there's still quite a big jump up, as many/most are not patrolled or marked on the ground, in some places they are not controlled for avalanches, and in places where they are controlled it's often not obvious (unless you stand at one of the boards with live updates) on the ground if they are currently open/safe.
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Totally agree with clarkey here, some runs left as "baby parks" for natural conditions can only help people develop broader skill sets in safer environments. Obviously will disappoint the tick listers who think they are experts because they've skied every groomed run in a resort in a week or might just broaden their horizons to the full scope of skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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+1 especially where there are parallel runs so a grilled option is available
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One of the other less often mentioned sides of this equation is the number of off piste free ride hero's whose skiing could do with an amount of time ON PISTE, learning to ski in a way that will help them off piste as well. Admittedly, you look less gnar when you are doing technique drills on piste than you do dropping from the heli with Candide. I actually love finding resorts that have standard red runs left totally natural, La Tour has a really nice one as i recall. Every resort should have a few of these, its comforting to know you are more or less avalanche safe and likely to be scooped up in the event of one of my (many) comedy pratfalls.
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Learn to Ski Bumps/Moguls & POWder first on Telemarks 
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@clarky999,
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what about people who want to ski ungroomed snow without having to deal with avalanche danger and obstacles under the snow, and those first learning to ski 'wild' snow who would be better concentrating on ski technique than safety?
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I think that's fair enough, but the number of people we are talking about is pretty small and I would have thought that the unpisted runs and itineraires that already exist would have been plenty.
@Dave of the Marmottes,
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Obviously will disappoint the tick listers who think they are experts because they've skied every groomed run in a resort in a week or might just broaden their horizons to the full scope of skiing.
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I think that's pretty patronising and unnecessary. More to the point is that a constant gripe on this forum is about runs being crowded. The more runs you leave unpisted, the more crowded the other runs will be for the simple fact that the vast majority of skiers prefer their runs pisted. I can't help feeling that if there really was significant demand for more unpisted runs then the resorts would have already obliged.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I think that's fair enough, but the number of people we are talking about is pretty small and I would have thought that the unpisted runs and itineraires that already exist would have been plenty. |
There are no unpisted blues and reds. There will not be a *single* icy on-piste blue mogul in a ski resort. Think of places like under the Tommeuse lift in Tignes, off piste and popular - there are always people on it. Effectively an unpisted blue/red, but it's off piste.
It's a big step up from a red to a black to an unpisted black.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes,
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Obviously will disappoint the tick listers who think they are experts because they've skied every groomed run in a resort in a week or might just broaden their horizons to the full scope of skiing.
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I think that's pretty patronising and unnecessary. More to the point is that a constant gripe on this forum is about runs being crowded. The more runs you leave unpisted, the more crowded the other runs will be for the simple fact that the vast majority of skiers prefer their runs pisted. I can't help feeling that if there really was significant demand for more unpisted runs then the resorts would have already obliged. |
People have different views about skiing. The tick list approach is one that I just don't understand but there is no doubt it exists, me I'd rather ski a mellow quiet slope in good condition than commute miles on tedious cat tracks to be able to say I've skied "Suicide Slide" or whatever. I also don't believe that resorts have all the answers or know what customers want - if they did we'd have seen far more resorts making a bigger deal of avy controlled "freeride areas which cost them little more than patrollers running some extra morning routes and a few bamboo canes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The majority of the public are;
1) not skilled enough to ski anything that isn't a piste
2) not strong / fit enough to ski anything that isn't a piste
I would include myself in that, i'm not good enough to ski deep powder, or steep bumps. I can go through powdery moguls on steeps, but the mixture of crud i find hard. I love to ski, you're basically saying i shouldn't be skiing, yet i would say i'm a better skiier than maybe 75% of people and fitter than maybe 80%.
Might as well say, "stop everyone skiing but me".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Levi215, not sure who you're directing that too, but maybe you'd benefit from some nice safe and gentle (easy blue gradient) ungroomed snow to learn in rather than having to jump straight up to steep bumps then?
Do the majority prefer skiing on piste? Undisputedly. Do significant numbers of people also enjoy skiing ungroomed snow? Undisputedly - just look at how anything within sight of a piste is usually tracked out within hours on a powder day.
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This is a very difficult topic. Yes a lot of skiers hate moguls so neatly bashed pistes are an attraction, but the lack of blue or easy reds with bumps means that it is difficult to acquire the skills to handle them and hence skiing the steep blacks remains a severe challenge for many. I like skiing a freshly bashed piste but I am always surprised when apparently very competent piste skiers encounter a patch of moguls and everything goes to pieces.
The side effect of bashing almost all pistes is that it does allow people to ski/board at a speed that is inconsistent with their overall ski level. I saw more evidence of this on a recent weekend in Wengen than I have noticed before. While all the pistes were bashed, the snow was very hard packed in places which resulted in some very interesting techniques and a lot of falls when unexpectedly encountered by fast but unskilled skiers.
No easy answer but there must be a compromise out there.
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You know it makes sense.
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The solution to the lack of easy ungroomed snow is to pressure the European resorts to adopt the system that is used in North America, Japan, Australia and NZ. Get them to increase the areas that are hazard controlled but not groomed. It works really well in giving developing skiers/boarders plenty of ungroomed terrain without reducing the area that is groomed and keeping them reasonably safe at the same time.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Sarge McSarge wrote: |
| The solution to the lack of easy ungroomed snow is to pressure the European resorts to adopt the system that is used in North America, Japan, Australia and NZ. Get them to increase the areas that are hazard controlled but not groomed. It works really well in giving developing skiers/boarders plenty of ungroomed terrain without reducing the area that is groomed and keeping them reasonably safe at the same time. |
I was thinking about this when skiing last week. Effectively in Europe there are lots of offpiste areas that are effectively controlled or such low risk that they are not needed to be controlled but they are not signed as such. This means that a) it is difficult for a skier unfamiliar with the area to ski them without first scoping them from all vantage points and b) a lot of people stay out on the "there be dragons" principle. So maybe it works in encouraging people to take responsbility or maybe it doesn't in that some people will pblindly ski them without thinking why others are doing so.
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Poster: A snowHead
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+1 for leaving SOME pistes ungroomed. There are some of us that are lucky enough to ski well enough to enjoy skiing moguls but are restricted to going where friends want to go. There are those who say get an on piste challenge by perfecting your carving, skiing on one ski etc etc which is what I have been doing for two weeks in the Dolomiti area and I am a bit bored, thankful for the good company that I am skiing with but there is a consensus amongst the group that it will be the last Bithday bash for some of us
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@clarky999, 3 valleys (I've been told) do a rotation green / blue nightly red / black every 3 nights. There is plenty of off piste blue stuff about but the people who track it are a very small % of the overall contingent. The majority are boarders, I guess it's easier to board off piste than to ski??
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sorry should also say target was OP I agree with you on the unpisteing aspects but I enjoy bumps and generally can find them (or at least have done this year)
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Now I haven't skied Europe, so my opinion might be useless, but my experience in resort ops tells me that expert skiers are a smaller proportion of a largely piste skiing population.
Re OP: You fail to look at the negatives of off piste for beginners and intermediates. It has hazards, tends to make a run harder, encourages moguls that make it even harder for this group of skiers and spreads out the skiing across a mountain, ruining powder opportunities for advanced skiers.
If you want off piste, go to a resort that has large off piste terrain or go backcountry. Backcountry if you are in the know, is incredible and IMO makes skiing much better.
That's my 2 cents
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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On one of my local Austian resorts (Flachauwinkl) they have a lift called The Powder Shuttle which accesses a fairly large area called The Stash. It has small cliffs (20 feet max) ravines, bumps on the main run, man made jumps, rails and walls and is managed for avi risk. Couple that with the itinery runs at Zauch and there is plenty to try. Other resorts also leave safe areas at the sides of some pistes to form long mogul fields where you can dip in and out as you wish.
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Imagine the problems for pisteurs with bloodwagons scooping all the punters with wrecked knees etc on these ungroomed pistes and the bumpy ride home for the victims.........
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Not yours @Scarpa, the OP's
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| KenX wrote: |
| Imagine the problems for pisteurs with bloodwagons scooping all the punters with wrecked knees etc on these ungroomed pistes and the bumpy ride home for the victims......... |
Why is that any worse than it was in the 80's when the skis were longer and more pistes had bumps? I can remember seeing the pisteurs bringing blood wagons down pistes with bumps and they seemed to cope, even if the victim had a slow bumpy ride.
I'm not suggesting that all runs be ungroomed but it would be good for many early skiers to learn how to handle them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@clarky999, If you speak to the off piste guides in Arlberg they always say 99% of skiers over estimate their ability which is true if you only ski groomers.
Fitness is a huge issue as as soon as carpet skiers are out if their comfort zone.Off piste unfamliar snowpak this becomes evident.
The guides prefer the Germans, Scandinavians & North Americans who are generally profficient Back country/off piste skiers.
The itinery's for Brits (unless very experienced) are moderated so as not to intimidate them. The guides spend a great deal of time waiting for stragglers & wipe out skiers.
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| KenX wrote: |
| Imagine the problems for pisteurs with bloodwagons scooping all the punters with wrecked knees etc on these ungroomed pistes and the bumpy ride home for the victims......... |
Why is that any worse than it was in the 80's when the skis were longer and more pistes had bumps? I can remember seeing the pisteurs bringing blood wagons down pistes with bumps and they seemed to cope, even if the victim had a slow bumpy ride.
I'm not suggesting that all runs be ungroomed but it would be good for many early skiers to learn how to handle them. |
It may not be worse than the 70s/80s, but we really don't want to go back to those days. The injury rate was DOUBLE what it is now and one of the most significant factors in that reduction has been the increase and improvement in grooming.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't quite understand the view that runs should be ungroomed because it would be a good thing to force people to improve their skiing. It's up to them whether they want to improve.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am struggling to understand what is an "ungroomed piste". Stop grooming and you will soon have moguls, which will grow, effectively turning it into a bumps run, which people do not seem to want. Flatten the moguls, ie groom the slope, and now you have a groomed piste. So, how do you get to this nirvana of a gentle off piste experience on a piste?
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| It may not be worse than the 70s/80s, but we really don't want to go back to those days. The injury rate was DOUBLE what it is now and one of the most significant factors in that reduction has been the increase and improvement in grooming. |
I was under the impression that between the 70s and the early 2000s injury rates more than halved and that this was attributed to improvements in binding technology while the type of injury changed from lower leg to knee and upper body. (Koehle, M.S., Lloyd-Smith, R. & Taunton, J.E. Sports Med (2002) 32: 785. doi:10.2165/00007256-200232120-00003). I'd be interested to learn where the idea that increased grooming was one of the major factors has been documented?
It's not about forcing people to learn it's about opportunity to learn within their comfort zone. Forcing someone to learn to ski bumps on a steep black or off piste is not ideal but if you can find bumps on a short section of a blue you are bringing the learning experience back to the comfort zone. There are many techniques for skiing bumps but flying over them at top speed is not usually a recommended one. Whilst I'm not in favour of forcing people to learn, I am of the opinion that experiencing different types of terrain within the marked pistes encourages people to improve their technique. I have a friend who is very proud of his ability to ski fast but struggles on all but the smallest bumps and has no desire to learn how to tackle them "because there are so few of them".
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You know it makes sense.
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There seem to be some un groomed dictators about? we will not groom the pistes and you will get to like them and improve your technique.....or you will hate, it stop skiing/snowboarding stop going on snow holidays, ski resorts will lose millions, holiday companies will pull out and there will be no more winter sports holidays.
How many of the stop grooming brigade make the use of ski lifts/ski busses etc.? If you prefer it so natural and want to work for it, why not just go back country and have done with it? there is all the un groomed snow you like there, and no knobheads getting in the way.
Why groom pistes? Take a look at the number of people riding un groomed and the number of people riding groomed. The companies that own the resorts have done this and cater for the massive majority. Yes it's good to do it every now and again just as it is good to ride the steepest drag lift you can find every now and again but if that's all there is, it stops being fun, and I think the reason most of us do it is to have fun.
Whilst we are un grooming pistes we could un invent the wheel?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@tarrantd, bindings have barely changed in the last 25 years as far as I know. Improvements before that did make a difference, as did shorter skis and helmets. I can't find the original article I was quoting from, but you might find this interesting http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/3/264.full
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Gyro wrote: |
There seem to be some un groomed dictators about? we will not groom the pistes and you will get to like them and improve your technique.....or you will hate, it stop skiing/snowboarding stop going on snow holidays, ski resorts will lose millions, holiday companies will pull out and there will be no more winter sports holidays.
How many of the stop grooming brigade make the use of ski lifts/ski busses etc.? If you prefer it so natural and want to work for it, why not just go back country and have done with it? there is all the un groomed snow you like there, and no knobheads getting in the way.
Why groom pistes? Take a look at the number of people riding un groomed and the number of people riding groomed. The companies that own the resorts have done this and cater for the massive majority. Yes it's good to do it every now and again just as it is good to ride the steepest drag lift you can find every now and again but if that's all there is, it stops being fun, and I think the reason most of us do it is to have fun.
Whilst we are un grooming pistes we could un invent the wheel? |
Yeah but your not a Skier..realise thst first
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@foxtrotzulu, That article is an interesting read but it does indicate that grooming isn't the only factor. Improvements made to slope design and safety were also contributing factors and it was noted that the injury rate at the so called black spots was about 50/50 good to bad grooming. but that overall over 70% of injuries occurred on well groomed slopes.
There was also an indication that increasing the uphill capacity without adding more slopes caused an increase in injuries.
Other interesting statistics are that 35% of injuries were in the 15 to 19 age group and that less than half of injuries were in the over 20s.
I'd like to see a more recent article as almost everything on the subject seems to be 15-20 years old.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Gyro wrote: |
| There seem to be some un groomed dictators about? we will not groom the pistes and you will get to like them and improve your technique.....or you will hate, it stop skiing/snowboarding stop going on snow holidays, ski resorts will lose millions, holiday companies will pull out and there will be no more winter sports holidays. |
Not sure anyone actually said that. Some of us think that having some ungroomed slopes possibly for short periods (e.g. leaving some blue runs for a few days between groomings) would be a good thing. It didn't stop many of us from becoming winter sports addicts before. I'm certainly not suggesting that the pistes be left ungroomed all season and appreciate the work done by the resorts to conserve the pistes. I also understand that not everyone likes bumps (especially boarders ) but if you have any desire to be able to handle the variety of conditions found on the mountain, both natural and man made, then occasionally encountering a few bumps, on relatively easy pistes, would seem to be a good learning aid.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tarrantd wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu, That article is an interesting read but it does indicate that grooming isn't the only factor. Improvements made to slope design and safety were also contributing factors and it was noted that the injury rate at the so called black spots was about 50/50 good to bad grooming. but that overall over 70% of injuries occurred on well groomed slopes.
There was also an indication that increasing the uphill capacity without adding more slopes caused an increase in injuries.
Other interesting statistics are that 35% of injuries were in the 15 to 19 age group and that less than half of injuries were in the over 20s.
I'd like to see a more recent article as almost everything on the subject seems to be 15-20 years old. |
Agree with all of the above. There was another study I saw which made the point that, while grooming was certainly not the only factor it was a significant one. However, I can't find that link anymore so you'll just have to take my word for it - or not!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Gyro wrote: |
There seem to be some un groomed dictators about? we will not groom the pistes and you will get to like them and improve your technique.....or you will hate, it stop skiing/snowboarding stop going on snow holidays, ski resorts will lose millions, holiday companies will pull out and there will be no more winter sports holidays.
How many of the stop grooming brigade make the use of ski lifts/ski busses etc.? If you prefer it so natural and want to work for it, why not just go back country and have done with it? there is all the un groomed snow you like there, and no knobheads getting in the way.
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I don't think anyone is being dictatorial about it, or saying all pistes should be left ungroomed. FWIW personally I do frequently 'backcountry ski' (i.e., ski touring) - mostly because there are too many people skiing the offpiste you get to from the lifts for my tastes However in Tirol at least it's getting to the point that even many ski touring access only zones are getting tracked out within half a day of snowfall!
However again with your 'just go backcountry' you refuse to acknowledge the extra factor of avalanche danger. People first learning to deal with ungroomed snow should ideally have somewhere safe to do it, where the only extra 'danger' comes from the ungroomed part.
Most people I've spoken to about it admit to having totally unknowingly taken some pretty big risks (the sort that make you wince in hindsight) - myself included - by just 'going offpiste' to learn, while being totally clueless about avalanches. Leaving a few blues ungroomed would benefit people like that far more than any of the people suggesting it on this thread. It's also what most of the skiing world does, other than the Alps.
Though I do know it's never going to happen and this is a pointless discussion
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@clarky999, It is indeed a pretty pointless discussion, but that's never stopped us here before.
I'm not convinced that an unbashed piste with a few days of chopped up crud and moguls is really much training for off-piste/backcountry skiing, but I'll bow to your superior judgement in that one.
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@clarky999, It is indeed a pretty pointless discussion, but that's never stopped us here before.
I'm not convinced that an unbashed piste with a few days of chopped up crud and moguls is really much training for off-piste/backcountry skiing, but I'll bow to your superior judgement in that one.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I'm not convinced that an unbashed piste with a few days of chopped up crud and moguls is really much training for off-piste/backcountry skiing |
Would you want to take somebody to the backcountry who wasn't able to ski that stuff 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think that the OP conflates two unrelated problems. Firstly, there's the reasonable complaint about people basically skiing too fast and beyond their ability to stop or change direction if something unexpected happens. Second, there's the advanced skiers desire to have something in-between groomed piste and completely uncontrolled off-piste, and asking for Alpine resorts to offer more of the US-type 'bowl' areas.
I always remember my instructor saying "Take a look at these people and you'll realise that most of those going fast are actually not in control. When you look at an instructor, you'll usually see that they can stop if they need to, because they know unexpected things happen." We had this last Weekend, when it was obvious there were a lot of locals, usually young men in groups, who were determined to career 'round and through the Weekend crowds on their first day of skiing for a few weeks. We actually came back to the apt early on the Sunday afternoon because it just wasn't enjoyable. Then it was back to normality on Monday. I don't know how you deal with this and I don't think that having un-groomed areas would make much difference to this problem.
I'd agree that Alpine resorts, in the main, don't seem to operate or sign non-groomed areas very well. Often, you only get to know which are the 'bowl' type areas by talking to an instructor or visiting the resort for a few years. And often, it's clear that some areas off-piste are extensively skied and seem relatively safe, while others aren't. It's all very well for the authorities to criticise people for skiing in dangerous areas, but I can appreciate that there's no official grading of off-piste, so it's hard to know. In Switzerland, you do have 'Itineraire' routes which seem to fit the 'un-groomed but safe for experienced skiers' category. You can see these are extensively skied, in comparison to the really challenging off-piste areas. However, even they are quite poorly signposted - thinking locally, you pretty much need to know in advance where to go, or have a guide.
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| Levi215 wrote: |
| @clarky999, 3 valleys (I've been told) do a rotation green / blue nightly red / black every 3 nights. There is plenty of off piste blue stuff about but the people who track it are a very small % of the overall contingent. The majority are boarders, I guess it's easier to board off piste than to ski?? |
Just for the record, I am not dissing boarders/skiers and I think I've avoided sweeping statements by using 'tend to' and 'more likely'. I'm certainly not trying to offend anybody.
I think it's more a lifestyle choice.
Skiers who have reached a reasonable level have tend to have had a fair number of lessons and been warned by their instructors about the dangers of off piste. Boarders tend not to have had any/more than a couple of lessons, and just do what they do on a skate board/surf board or just follow their mates.
So boarders are significantly less likely than skiers to have been educated to be afraid of the off piste. And if they have, boarders are more likely to belong to the 'surfer dude' school of casual so have a higher inclination to accept risk than skiers.
I remember being in St Anton a week where we had metres of snow (literally). The boarders in the chalet were raving about the off piste. I asked them about avalanche training and equipment and they looked blank. Meanwhile I had an on-piste skiing lesson with an instructor who insisted on wearing his airbag ON piste.
| Pyremaniac wrote: |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I'm not convinced that an unbashed piste with a few days of chopped up crud and moguls is really much training for off-piste/backcountry skiing |
Would you want to take somebody to the backcountry who wasn't able to ski that stuff |
Surely it's perfect training? You've got to start somewhere, and where else would you suggest?
I remember an instructor saying to me, when I was with a beginner girlfriend, that I should never ski on the blue runs with her, but ski in the rubbish on the edges. Great tip for getting you used to tacking unpredictable snow.
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