Advice from 4x4 experts please?

A snowHead

Hi all.

For this years trip we are all piling into my brothers Land Rover Defender and he and I will be sharing the driving. Whilst I have diven off road vehicles before, I've no knowledge about the diff lock. I know that they lock the axles in order to force all four wheels to continue to drive when grip is lost but how and what to set the diff to is a mystery to me!

If we're going in this vehicle we may as well know how to use it properly. What I'd like to know is when we're driving up/down the mountain roads, and if we get hit with loads of snow, what should we be doing with the diff lock?

I've looked at youtube which talks about activating the diff lock (whilst on the move and no clutch?) but then it talks about high and low with diff lock either on/off? Confused. I don't want to wreck his transmission so some advice on how to select the diff lock would be useful too (stationary? clutch?)

I could ask my brother but he's only had the vehicle six months, not yet driven it in snow or mountain roads, and although he uses it lightly off road for his work I suspect he's never bothered with the diff lock(?).

If it's relevant it's a 57 plate Defender 110 with General Grabber 2 tyres (with the snow flake symbol on the side wall). We're going to Morillon Les Esserts in mid Feb.

Cheers for any advice, appreciate this could be a dumb question for many.

A snowHead

@dredgey, do you have snow tyres (not m+S) ?

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Hope this helps http://forum.lro.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=57918

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Very unlikely you'll need diff lock but if you do:

http://forum.lro.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=57918

Also, those tyres are winter rated but not proper snow tyres. In all fairness, you'll unlikely have any issues, but be aware that grip when braking is reduced over snow tyres.

And as a Defender owner, can I wish you good luck driving all the way to the alps in one!! Make sure you have your fuel stops planned and a chiropractor booked for your arrival! Very Happy

Edit- beaten to it!!

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@muddewater, thank you

After all it is free

Hope the Defender goes a tad more quickly, and less noisily than the military Landrovers I used to drive in the 80s. Toofy Grin

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@Dashed, thanks also.

Hhmmm, I did wonder about mpg and comfort... the idea was one vehicle saved on total travel costs (ferry/tolls/fuel) but its possibly minimal?... Or maybe it just saves him money!

We're driving through the night in the hope that the kids will sleep (3, 6 and 10). Doubtful the adults will wink

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It's probably better than my fathers 80's defender but I'd you haven't travellers in it before pack some ear plugs just in case.

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With a normal, open diff each wheel can turn at a different speed, which is good for doing things like turning corners. Like most things drive will always take the path of least resistance and normally this isn't an issue. If all four wheels are on the road their resistance is equal so all four* get an equal share of the drive. If you get stuck in something slippy like mud or snow all the drive ends up going to the wheel that's slipping most, not the one with some grip that might get you out.

A diff lock turns an open diff in the a fixed one, where all the wheels turn at the same speed. This is terrible for turning corners but when you're stuck in something slippy means each wheel gets some drive, including the one with some grip to get you out.

* I don't know if a late Defender has permanent 4x4 or some switchable system. Driving all four wheels and the associated gearboxes saps quite a lot of power so often the set-up is to be two wheel drive most of the time with the abilityi to swap to four when required. Years ago this used to mean getting out and twisting a knob in the front wheel hubs but by the end of Defender production this may have moved to a button inside the cabin.

OK, that's diffs, next hi/low range.

Rather than just one gear stick you'll find two in a Defender. The big one's the usual stick you would find in any car. The small one just has high/neutral/low positions. Basically the small one controls a second gearbox that sits in front the main one and gives you 10 gears rather than 5. Low range is generally for really steep stuff, either up of down as it lets you get maximum power from the engine without going very fast.

Chances are you will spend the whole trip in high range/2 wheel drive/open diff and never need to worry about it. If you're not trying to climb a mountain you probably won't need low range. If you get stuck, start by trying 4 wheel drive, then locking the diff.

Thanks @Mjit, this is useful advice. From this and other posts I may well be over thinking it!

You know it makes sense.

If you have snow tyres with mountain and snowflake symbol, and you need diff lock, you are in a world of trouble.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

I drove a 55 plate Defender out this year. The model Defenders have Traction Control as well as the manual diff lock, but the chance of you having to engage a diff on a road, even with heavy snow is highly unlikely. Same with low range.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@EdMan, I've owned newish 90s and 110s and driven both on road in heavy snow. Probably sensible to slow down a bit but other than that carry on as normal. If you're going to tow something heavy to the Alps in snow then you might want to be familiar with the different lock. If you want to go off road as well then maybe consider low range! Take plenty of money. They guzzle!

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You won't need the diff lock as it'll break down well before you leave the mountains Toofy Grin

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Basically the any Landrover (and a mean proper Landrover here!) from the mid 80's onwards (90" or 110" wheelbase onwards) is permanent four wheel drive. You have the option of a low range but to be honest I don't think you would need to use that on the road unless you were forcing your way through drifts or pulling someone out of trouble.

The diff lock is actually a centre diff lock, in that it locks the diff that controls drive to the front and rear wheels. I don't think there is any form of locking of the wheels on each axle though they may have some form of limited slip diff.

On normal snow covered roads I'd just leave it in high range and without the diff locked. If you get some really bad bits or a steep hairpin I'd maybe lock the diff but only if it's deep snow. Never use the diff lock when you can see Tarmac, it can damage the gearbox/drivetrain. If you do want to engage the diff lock then you can do so on the move, just move the lever sideways. The light will come on on the dash to remind you to disengage it.

If a few of you are driving it then always remember to engage low range or neutral when you leave the vehicle. That way you can all sit there and snigger the next morning when the driver can't figure out what is going on with the blasted gearbox!

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I drove a '94 Defender 110 to Flaine in '96 and while driving up the mountain, in 15cm new snow and most cars were putting on chains, I didn't need the chains, the diff lock or the low range. Getting out of the car park at the end of the week the diff lock was very useful!!. The only problems were the lack of comfort for the rear passengers, the drafty door seals and the fuel consumption.

Before anyone asks, the tyres were whatever the standard Land Rover supply was at the time.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@japes1275, good overview of what is really going or inside of one of these, and where to deploy it's lock.

Many people don't realise that with three open (unlocked) diffs you'd only need to have one wheel with no traction to get the vehicle stuck. With the centre diff locked it will need traction loss on both axles to prevent it moving.

I've used that road up to Les Esserts many times and would say that if you get snow on the road toward the top, I'd use the lock and leave it on all the time you're on snow / ice. It's often the case you'll get others having difficulty there and you may need to stop and start to move around them. It's also more secure in low traction and significant gradient when using the handbrake if you have to wait for someone else to move as the handbrake works through the transmission.

The parking in the village can be a little ad hoc so you may also need it there, it's a great place to stay I think and one of my families favourite places to ski. I'd also have no hesitation going in a defender.

After all it is free

I consider myself to be a very nervy driver in snow but on the couple of years we have taken the defender (all purpose tyres) to the Alps for a ski holiday (gulp petrol consumption!) I drove it around the resort on plenty of snowy days with absolutely no problem. Even going up or down alpine roads in falling snow (to be fair hubby drove those bits) it coped with everything without needing any special techniques and whilst all around us needed chains we did not!

Even though I'm a bit of landrover fan I'd have to say,rather you than me! Make sure he has good breakdown cover. I know they have a reputation for being indestructible but it's far from true! Not to mention fuel consumption, comfort, road noise etc. They don't crash well either, well to put a finer point on it. The occupants don't! On a positive note, they are excellent for off road and snow. I always think of them as a work tool not a car.

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@ski3, this is really useful to know especially with reference to getting into Les Esserts itself, many thanks!

We're pretty much resigned to the fact that it will be fairly uncomfortable and thirsty, although it's a 'posh' version so comfort I'm sure will just about be ok. Hopefully its still cheaper than us going in two cars too(?). Breakdown cover I have myself provided I am in the vehicle and inside Europe, although I think he has cover too. Hopefully being that its low mileage and relatively new, it should be reliable...

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@dredgey,

1. Forget the diff lock. I really can't imagine you will ever need it. If you think of it as something to get you out of a 10ft deep muddy pit, then you won't be far wrong.
2. The tyres you have are great. I have no idea what @Dashed, means by saying they aren't snow tyres. Apart from being studded how could they be more 'snowy'.
3. Despite having great tyres, be aware that this doesn't exempt you from needing chains when the police decide they are required.
4. A Defender is a great vehicle (in some very specific circumstances), but as others have said I would cheefully sell a kidney to avoid having to drive one to the Alps and back. It's almost as if LR sat down and tried to design the least suitable vehicle possible for a long motorway journey. If you have no choice, then OK, but otherwise .....

snow reports

You might need it for the last 10 foot up a snowy bank. Other than that ignore it. Word of warning confidence may cause oversteer.

Wear you ski socks in the way there and wear ear plugs.

@dredgey, I'm keen not to dramatise it as the road up there is fine and not narrow, also a bus route so routinely ploughed clear and kept open for all access traffic so it's nothing to worry about from that aspect.
Just if you are using it during heavy snowfall then the top third into village offers "opportunities " for those not prepared, to struggle as it has a fair gradient at that point, so you get your own upward momentum interrupted is a polite way of putting it.

As I said above, we're big fans of it, if you've not been there before then Le Beu (think that's correct) is a great place for eating. It's just above the start of main chairlift about 50mtrs up but you have to get there early as it fills up quickly.

@Whitty, a friend has a ninety and just passed 260,000 miles, just a different pace of life really, and quite a nice one I think.

You know it makes sense.

@ski3, thank you for the recommendation, we'll check it out. We're all really looking forward to it and with a mix of ages and skiing abilities I'm hopeful that it's an ideal base, especially with the accomodation being right on the piste. Is it a bit like La Tania? (if you or anyone has been there?)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@Whitty, I know what you mean, this one though is mostly original. It's certainly not pristine but generally ok. 1959 one sounds nice, appreciating as well now. Bet you'd need more cash to buy it back.
@dredgey, that's a fair comparison, with La Tania. We stayed there some time ago but they're a similar aspect. Probably the accommodation in Morillon is less spread out. My two children have completed their formative ski years there through from raw beginners. One of the best long green runs back down in the alps, Marvel.
Another highly regarded restaurant there is L'igloo which is often mentioned by others on here.
Don't know if you want a route at that end of the journey but we get off the autoroute A40 at jnct 15 and take the direction to Fillinges and then on to Taninges which is in the valley Morillon is in. It has the advantage of missing the next toll at Cluses and the general traffic from there up toward your destination. Also has two or three supermarkets along it if you need supplies for self catering. A big Intermarche about halfway along that route and a Super U just as you arrive in Taninges, neither of which you'll miss as you travel right past them.

A snowHead

Bloody long way to go in a land rover....

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@ski3, kinda glad that it's like La Tania as that's the sort of place i was looking for; family friendly with access to a larger ski area for the more advanced skiers. If the accommodation is even closer together, even better!

Thanks for the further recommendations of L'igloo and access from the autoroute. Any views on The Oak Barrel Pub?

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Take a Discovery 3 or 4 out on your trip, they drive way better on the motorway and superb in snow. You just have to flick a switch to set the car in Snow mode. Low gear, you don't need. I've driven a Discovery 3 with M+S tyres in the Alps for the last 14 years and only used low gear and diff lock once to pull a car back on the road.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I've been in the back of a Defender driving to Austria in a party of 5. Never again without taking a cushion Shocked

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Sounds like a nightmare journey to me.

After all it is free

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