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It's perfectly safe I know this area....

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
...which is what a guy said one morning when I was a naive beginner many years ago. I followed him under the ropes at Les Arcs, and after 50 metres in almost zero viz saw him jink suddenly and urgently to his left. If I had not done the same, I would have been down the 5 metre deep hole, which was only about a two metres across, falling into a rushing stream at the bottom of the hole. If he had been inattentive, he would have been down the hole. If I hadn't been watching him like a hawk, I would have been down the hole too or instead. Safe, my a*se. I am now MUCH older and wiser. Turned out he had only visited Les Arcs for a few days previously. More fool me for buying into his over-confidence. He did NOT know the area like the back of his hand, he had been off piste there once in the past. Contrast a trip a couple of years ago with a Uiagm guide - entering one area he stopped and indicated for me to come over to him, where he said '...ok for this next section stay in my tracks exactly, there are pits of soft snow and snow bridges all over this next 500 metres ...'.
The psychology of mountain accidents shows 'group think' and undue dependency to be highly instrumental in off-piste accidents.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 21-01-17 11:24; edited 3 times in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Not sure what being English has to do with it? - if he was French and hadn't ever been there it would have been the same. Or a Brit who had lived there for 10 yrs who knew it like the back of his hand rolling eyes
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@martinm, ...you're absolutely right, would have been the same if he had been an overconfident and unknowledgeable local person, I was just scene-setting I guess, not disparaging a particular nationality. I've done an edit.
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Quote:

The psychology of mountain accidents shows 'group think' and undue dependency to be highly instrumental in accidents.


I suspect that should be 'some accidents.'

IIRC recent threads have suggested the cause of accidents to be:

- Young and inexperienced skiers
- Not knowing the rules
- People skiing too fast for the conditons
- Alcohol consumption

and I'm sure I've missed several off the list.

I think it's a good point though. Don't follow other skiers / group members blindly. I suspect half the problem is that it's always the least experienced skier who does the following and they're the least equipped to decide not to follow and do their own thing instead. They're also the least equipped to avoid an accident so are triply f****d.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@olderscot, I suspect that @valais2 posted in the context of off-piste.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Yes indeed meant off-piste - have amended
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
True. I do think the point he raises of not following othes blindly does relate to a lot of accidents on piste, off piste and skiing down closed pistes.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 21-01-17 11:27; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@olderscot,
Quote:

skiing down closed pistes
certainly this.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I was told by I guide in Canada we had for a backcountry course that "tracks are not a sign of another intelligent life form" which has always stuck with me, as I'm sure lots of people see other tracks from skiers and boarders and naturally assume it's safe.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@bigtuboflard, indeed. Friends of mine were skiing to meet up again with us at the mid station of the Arcs funi. Red for us, Blue for them. They took a wrong turn, followed some tracks through the woods, ended up 1/2 way to Bourg, on the road, miles from anywhere.
Skis off and pondering. Suddenly two others shot out from the woods behind them. Having seen now 4 tracks, the latter pair thought it was bound to be the right way.

In this instance no harm done, other than cold hands, bruised egos and significant pi$$ taking. Had there been a cliff edge however, things might have been different.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
There have been a couple of fatalities in Breckenridge this season of very experienced local skiers dying in tree collisions. When you've been skiing the same lines for 20 years it doesn't exempt you from mistakes.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'd been down La Grave 2 or 3 times but wouldn't have professed to know the way. A friend who's been coming here much longer than me and had skied much more off piste "knew the way". Did he f**k and he was so unfit couldn't follow my plan of keeping another ESF group in sight. We found our way to P2 but lesson learned.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Following tracks off piste is a very very bad idea in many places, Veret - Gers area in Grand Massif is a favourite area with kite skiers, if you follow their tracks its off a cliff you may end up.................
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
valais2 wrote:
@martinm, ...you're absolutely right, would have been the same if he had been an overconfident and unknowledgeable local person, I was just scene-setting I guess, not disparaging a particular nationality. I've done an edit.


Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Following a guide's tracks *up* an avalanche slope is also not always a great idea, even when lead by another guide. See 20-01-2003, Craig Kelly etc.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Just wait at the top or bottom of a big lift for a guide and his group to turn up and follow them at a distance of about 100m.

If they shout abuse, just pretend you have headphones on or no-speaka-da-lingo.

Practically free skiing wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Whitegold, Up here the guide (or me for that matter) would wave them through, especially if they were skinning up hill wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Rule 1 . Off Piste/Back Country

Never follow tracks blindly.

Never follow a group being guided.
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@chocksaway, ...last time in Les Faverges, off piste wilderness above La Tieche, with a UIAGM guide we know, from Lens, we'd tracked some untracked, rounded a rocky promontory, and were just heading off to dig some test pits. We are standing there cogitating and kit-fiddling, two boarders pop round the corner in our tracks and pull up a metre behind us. The guide looks a bit askance at them and crosses his arms. I wonder what's going to happen next since a Mexican Stand-off looks like making an appearance. He then says to them, po-faced, '...where are you going?...'. They say '..we were following you...'. He then says 'hmmm...so where are you going now?'. They look very confused and the reality is sinking in ... we are on tricky slopes, miles from anywhere, and the route out is not at all obvious, since 'downhill' leads to all sorts of obvious and concealed 'interesting' places. 'Er...' they say and look around them anxiously. 'Er...' again. The guide crosses his arms and smiles ruefully at them. 'Er...' they say again. 'Sh*t' says one of them, and they move away about 5 metres. The guide stands there with his arms folded. They mutter and move off slowly around the corner. We dig some pits. Stanton is right of course, rule 1; and I do like 'ski tracks are not a sign of intelligent life...'. Thanks Darwin.

Post script - the pits we dug were very interesting. 2 metres to base, and then stuck fingers in all the way down - solid, solid, solid, solid, until 2cm from the ground - very weak layer. Reflected wind-blown layer in November. Bit like this year - big fall, then wind, then nothing for ages. Potentially big, deep, unstable areas.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Whitegold wrote:
Just wait at the top or bottom of a big lift for a guide and his group to turn up and follow them at a distance of about 100m.

100m is too far. Too easy to lose the rabbit. Then you're down to following tracks, which is worse than following actual group. The tracks may at some point with other tracks of skiers with uphill kits (or worse, wings)

100' is better. But then, the group may not like it.

Even in the best scenario, the group may finish their day at a remote road side where their had cached a mini-bus for the way out. You, in the mean time, will be waiting at a lonely road in the middle of nowhere. Even if their run ends in a remote village pub, your "almost free" guided day might end up costing as much in taxi fare as the guide fee.
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Out on an off piste day with the great Fred Harper many years ago we were followed by a couple of reasonably competent skiers for sometime, when we got over a ridge with little option of return Fred stopped and waited for the "tail enders" and gently suggested to them that following another group wasnt a very good idea, you had no idea where they were going or how difficult it might become. He then asked them if they had their passports with them! He proceeded to tell them they had crossed the border into Switzerland and would probably be required to produce their ID at the bottom of the mountain! All tosh of course but they looked a bit concerned. Fred then pointed out to them how and where they should go down the mountain and suggested they went on their way but before they left us he gave them the lecture about how it becomes the responsibility of all mountain users to care for each other in the event of an accident or incident of any sort and that it just isnt fair to effectively tail gate on a guided group who have paid for guiding and who may have to help out if the going gets tough or an incident occurs with the tail gaters. They went off quite shame faced and we presume they got down and home safely as we didnt see them on our route down.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
^ That's the primary reason why I don't like tailgating. It's not great when you find a single tagging along behind your group because you end up feeling responsible for ensuring they don't get over their head.

Of course sometimes you are on your own route and you catch a guided group which is a bit potentially embarrassing because it isn't good etiquette to blow by them - but if you hang around there is a risk you are perceived as tailgating.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
If someone tells you you're "perfectly safe" on a mountain, probably best to assume you're not perfectly safe. Shocked
There's no situation that's perfectly safe where that would ever need to be said. Probably applies to other situations too - as the not following tracks also applies.

I was walking up Brown Knoll (between Mam Tor and Kinder Scout), once. There are boggy parts of the path at various intervals. As anyone who's walked such paths will know, people go round these further and further as their tracks spread the boggyness out. So you're left with the judgement at each as to whether it's worth a jump, or a diversion. At one particular one, I could see a few millimetre deep footprint, perfectly formed, just shy of the far edge. I jumped and placed my foot into it, only to plunge thigh deep into bog. I've always ignored footprints since. Very Happy
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