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Skier dies in La Plagne

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:


@DP - I hope that I, and anyone I know, never have the "pleasure" of skiing in the same resort as you - never mind meeting you 😷


Seems a little strong.

Seeing as we're doing terrible snowboarding accidents, this one has a special place in my heart.


http://youtube.com/v/BGa4mRCYPwo
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@ronaldothefrog,

You really think it is sanctimonious to expect people to accept their responsibility for not putting other people at needless risk? If so I'll take the label but I have to say that anyone who doesn't accept that responsibility is a selfish t0sser.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:

Re sanctimony - most of us will have taken evasive falls or otherwsie made sacrifices of equipment etc to avoid hitting other people even through their fault. I think that entitles us to be a little sanctimonious about those who regard collisions as "chill out man it was just an accident" or at the extreme a good laugh. Very rarely is a collision unavoidable through sensible line choice and appropriate speed even if another variable is introduced (such as ice or binding exploding)


Really this is all I was on about earlier in the thread... through experience I"m at the point where I think it's probably better to hit people sometimes than to take overly dangerous evasive action. It's instinctive, especially as a big lump of a skier, to try to get out of the way at all costs even if you are the one in the right; but morally why should you give yourself a holiday-ending injury so that an idiot can walk off with no damage? The fact that you've taken a nose dive off a cliff and they've come out without a scratch will probably only further serve their self-righteous belief that they're not actually doing anything dangerous. Neither situation is one you want to be in - hence skiing responsibly - but at the end of the day a small crash might be better absorbed by a person than a big crash by a tree or rock.

I don't know why somebody decided to blow that sentiment out of proportion and make it out that I was basically taking pleasure from skiing around resorts pushing people over for a laugh.
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gorilla wrote:
Quote:


@DP - I hope that I, and anyone I know, never have the "pleasure" of skiing in the same resort as you - never mind meeting you 😷


Seems a little strong.

Seeing as we're doing terrible snowboarding accidents, this one has a special place in my heart.


Its a funny video

Although I like how the boarder says "you stopped in the middle".... yes, he did, about half a second before the crash, on an empty piste about 17 miles wide. Not really an adequate defence!!!
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Quote:

Its a funny video

Yep, cos everyone walked away unhurt. Closer to common assault or ABH than an accident though.
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dp wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:

Re sanctimony - most of us will have taken evasive falls or otherwsie made sacrifices of equipment etc to avoid hitting other people even through their fault. I think that entitles us to be a little sanctimonious about those who regard collisions as "chill out man it was just an accident" or at the extreme a good laugh. Very rarely is a collision unavoidable through sensible line choice and appropriate speed even if another variable is introduced (such as ice or binding exploding)


Really this is all I was on about earlier in the thread... through experience I"m at the point where I think it's probably better to hit people sometimes than to take overly dangerous evasive action. It's instinctive, especially as a big lump of a skier, to try to get out of the way at all costs even if you are the one in the right; but morally why should you give yourself a holiday-ending injury so that an idiot can walk off with no damage? The fact that you've taken a nose dive off a cliff and they've come out without a scratch will probably only further serve their self-righteous belief that they're not actually doing anything dangerous. Neither situation is one you want to be in - hence skiing responsibly - but at the end of the day a small crash might be better absorbed by a person than a big crash by a tree or rock.

I don't know why somebody decided to blow that sentiment out of proportion and make it out that I was basically taking pleasure from skiing around resorts pushing people over for a laugh.


For what it's worth there's at least one person in this thread (me) who understands that perspective.

Now I'm older, more brittle, and more bitter, I too would rather hunker down and protect myself as best as possible in a person vs person bash over risking a major solo crash (particularly into an inanimate object or off a drop) - Where the other person was a grown adult and 100% obviously at fault, of course.

Thankfully I can't see it ever happening though, I like to ride like I drive - Obviously exceptional circumstances aside, I'd consider it a failing of my driving (and boarding) if I let someone else cause a crash i could have avoided through situational awareness.
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Quote:

situational awareness

yeah, the skier in the video above wouldn't have got himself wiped out if he'd done the very simple thing of stopping at the side. Still wasn't his fault he got hit but being in the right doesn't compensate for an injury.
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Pruman wrote:
Quote:

situational awareness

yeah, the skier in the video above wouldn't have got himself wiped out if he'd done the very simple thing of stopping at the side. Still wasn't his fault he got hit but being in the right doesn't compensate for an injury.


I agree... Could have been avoided, ultimately the boarders fault, but both parties could have prevented that:)
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What I really don't understand is why any of these boarders or skiers were recording their runs, and even more unexplainable is why after after crashing into someone else due to your own ineptitude you would publish it for the world to see Puzzled

Are we going to end up with the equivalent of cyclists headcams or car dashcams? If the above crashes had caused more serious injuries, I would expect the Ski Patrol to gather the footage from anyone involved.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 12-01-17 18:14; edited 1 time in total
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PowderAdict wrote:
.. why after after crashing into someone else due to your own ineptitude you would publish it for the world to see Puzzled


Simple - they don't realise that under the FIS rules they are the ones at fault! rolling eyes (in fact most of them will never have heard of the FIS rules anyway) Evil or Very Mad
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PowderAdict wrote:
What I really don't understand is why any of these boarders or skiers were recording their runs, and even more explainable is why after after crashing into someone else due to your own ineptitude you would publish it for the world to see Puzzled


Never underestimate the stupidity of people!


A good thing to remember on the slopes too.
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To all those who think that having a beer on the slope is unreasonable, just like driving, I can only assume that you have read the research which shows driving tired is more dangerous than with a small amount of alcohol.

I therefore assume that as soon as you feel tired that you get the next lift down the mountain for the sake of everyones safety? And you limit your skiing to ensure that at no stage you are tired on the hill?

No...didnt think so.

Nothing wrong with a beer or two on the mountain. Getting drunk is a different issue.
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I enjoyed the comments appended to the original YouTube video. A lot of fellow snowboarders grumbling that the guy was in the wrong place, but my favourite was one guy who was grumbling that he'd really hurt his wrist taking avoiding action so he didn't hit a walker!
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You know it makes sense.
SkiG wrote:
To all those who think that having a beer on the slope is unreasonable, just like driving, I can only assume that you have read the research which shows driving tired is more dangerous than with a small amount of alcohol.

I therefore assume that as soon as you feel tired that you get the next lift down the mountain for the sake of everyones safety? And you limit your skiing to ensure that at no stage you are tired on the hill?


Yes I do. Fifty years of skiing without injury and I am doing my best to keep it that way.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
SkiG, you are correct that it has been reported "Being tired behind the wheel as bad as being drunk, but this is referring to drowsy (sleepiness) not tired physically.
Being sleepy on the slopes is likely to be uncommon as physical activity has a stimulant effect.
Exercise for Mental Health
Why Do I Think Better after I Exercise?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
SkiG wrote:
To all those who think that having a beer on the slope is unreasonable, just like driving, I can only assume that you have read the research which shows driving tired is more dangerous than with a small amount of alcohol.

I therefore assume that as soon as you feel tired that you get the next lift down the mountain for the sake of everyones safety? And you limit your skiing to ensure that at no stage you are tired on the hill?

No...didnt think so.

Nothing wrong with a beer or two on the mountain. Getting drunk is a different issue.


The advice against not driving tired, means you shouldn't drive when you are feeling sleepy, struggling to keep your eyes open and can't concentrate on the road. Similarly I would suggest that anyone who starts nodding off while skiing down a piste should get the next lift down.

That doesn't mean its wrong to ski if you feel physically tired in your legs but still mentally alert. Just as there's nothing wrong in driving home from the gym after a strenuous workout.
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Frankly I think a lot of people in fact DO give up for the day if they are really feeling that crappy. Certainly if I was nodding off whilst carving out turns, I'd be thinking I need to go home.

I'm totally against this concept that a pint or two on the mountain is unreasonable. Especially if you are hydrating yourself properly with water. Alcohol cuts down your response times because it acts as a relaxant. Physical sport acts as a stimulant. So therefore, physical sport acts - in different extents to different people - as an offset to the effects of alcohol.
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I got to the bottom of a run and was on an almost flat section before the next run. I started doing some short quick turns. Next thing some woman smashed in to my right boot at speed. She went flying and fell over. She then got up and berated me in French. I literally couldnt stop laughing at her. Im on a flat section of a 100m wide slope using probably 2-3 metres of the slope to do some quick turns while waiting for friends. She hits me from behind and still thinks its my fault. A lot of people just have no idea what kind of etiquette on the slopes to use.
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mk28 wrote:
A lot of people just have no idea what kind of etiquette on the slopes to use.


It's not just etiquette. A lot of people simply do not realise that other people actually exist. They believe that they are on this planet all by themselves, and they can just go where they want, do what they want, and there is absolutely no possibility that it could interfere with anyone else. Those are the people who run down the mountains, not looking where they're going, traveling faster than they can control, on skis too advanced for them, on pistes too advanced for them, etc etc... with no care in the world because they firmly believe that nobody else exists.
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Agree DP. Same people barge through crowds on London public transport etc without a care in the world, I think they view other people as obstacles to their progress, rather than as another human being.

I'm still staggered that the clear villains in some of these crashes are putting the footage up on youtube and aren't aware its their fault.
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I think some people just think crashing in to people is a laugh and anyone who feels different is "sanctimonious". These are the people that post their crashes on youtube.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 13-01-17 15:11; edited 1 time in total
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@t44tomo, @dp, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I found this comment on a I hit a person on the slopes video which I think perfectly sums up the attitude of those type of people.

Quote:
Seriously nothing i could have done to avoid this the skier was very unpredictable. Cheers!


From this video (BTW I am sure I could find lots of similar incidents by skiers it's just this one was suggested while I was looking at some of the earlier examples posted in this thread)


http://youtube.com/v/d28eRD-3Nbk

The crash happens in the first 5 seconds. The skier was on a blue run, under control doing linked turns not using the whole piste and was halfway through a turn when they were hit... And yet the 'cool rad dude' couldn't see that there was anything remotely he could of done to prevent him hitting her.
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I feel guilty now that I snaked a tourist dithering at the tube barrier this morning. I do have another rule re situational awareness - if you are in a flow of people/cars whatever remember that a sudden action, stopping, pondering the world, thinking of that elusive Nirvana lyric can have consequences. A person swerving randomly across a busy cat track might be right in the eyes of the FIS is someone is unable to avoid them but they have really invited it upon themselves.

Sometimes crowds only work if people behave sensibly and non selfishly and recognise they are in a crowd.
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Absolutely Dave, but if you were running as fast as you can towards the barrier then you couldn't honestly say there was nothing you could of done...
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I do have another rule re situational awareness - if you are in a flow of people/cars whatever remember that a sudden action, stopping, pondering the world, thinking of that elusive Nirvana lyric can have consequences.
Agreed. I try to ski as 'predictably' as possible especially if it's busy, although that's no guarantee you won't get hit from behind.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
A person swerving randomly across a busy cat track might be right in the eyes of the FIS is someone is unable to avoid them but they have really invited it upon themselves.
As frustrating as it is, and I share your pain, they have just as much right to ski like a dick as you do to ski in a fast and responsible manner.
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@dp,
Quote:

Frankly I think a lot of people in fact DO give up for the day if they are really feeling that crappy
That's a bit like saying "When I've had a few drinkls too many and start to feel really pissed then I do drive straight home" Very Happy Very Happy

My guess is that the single biggest contributing factor to accidents is fatigue. I think that's the main reason that the last run of the day is one of the most incident-prone periods.

Quote:

I'm totally against this concept that a pint or two on the mountain is unreasonable.
I completely agree with you. There may also be an argument that a degree of relaxation actually improves one's skiing and offsets some of the negative effects of alcohol. Less tense, more relaxed etc. I certainly find that my skiing is better after lunch!
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pieman666 wrote:
@t44tomo, @dp, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I found this comment on a I hit a person on the slopes video which I think perfectly sums up the attitude of those type of people.

Quote:
Seriously nothing i could have done to avoid this the skier was very unpredictable. Cheers!


From this video (BTW I am sure I could find lots of similar incidents by skiers it's just this one was suggested while I was looking at some of the earlier examples posted in this thread)


http://youtube.com/v/d28eRD-3Nbk

The crash happens in the first 5 seconds. The skier was on a blue run, under control doing linked turns not using the whole piste and was halfway through a turn when they were hit... And yet the 'cool rad dude' couldn't see that there was anything remotely he could of done to prevent him hitting her.


I'm not sure which surprised/disgusted mke more about that video:
The original collision
The fact that the offending snowbaorder didn't bother to stop
The fact that the guy who witnessed it didn't bother to stop and see if the woamn was OK
The fact that the guy filming it didn't chase down and berate the guy who caused the accident

Then again, the way in which the guy filming it went so close to someone else in the first few seconds should possibly have given me a clue.
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@foxtrotzulu, very true they did manage to fit in virtually every single bad behavior in the first 10 seconds of that video. If you haven't visited youtube to watch it, the person who published it was the person who hit the skier, the person videoing is his rad friend...
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jedster wrote:
@ronaldothefrog,

You really think it is sanctimonious to expect people to accept their responsibility for not putting other people at needless risk? If so I'll take the label but I have to say that anyone who doesn't accept that responsibility is a selfish t0sser.


I think it's sanctimonious that in a thread about someone tragically dying due to an accident, it quickly spirals into speculation about who was probably to blame; followed by war stories about who has been crashed into most badly by a snowboarder/skier and all the accompanied bravado and moral superiority.

Most of the time accidents are caused by someone being out of control, whether they're on skis or boards is pretty irrelevant. Sometimes accidents happen and it's just not clear who was at fault.
Reading through the comments here it's like a lot of people have forgotten that they weren't always as proficient as they are now. I'd be surprised if every person on here hadn't, at some point in their lives, been responsible for an incident on the slopes; regardless of how major or minor. A lot of people on here need to get over themselves IMO.
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^^^+100

I'm pretty appalled by both the content and spirit of this thread.
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Thread has moved on from news about a tragic accident, evolving to become a general discussion about piste etiquette (with a diversion to the age-old skiers v. boarders nonsense). Hardly unusual for snowHeads, nor unreasonable IMO. If people don't like the content or the tone of the discussion there are plenty of other threads to follow...
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@rob@rar, fair point and nicely put, but i guess @ronaldothefrog, and @MadMountainMan, are just suggesting a new tread would have been more respectful of the OP. Which we all agree was very sad. just sayin'
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Is it though?

What do people expect? A thread of "RIP, skibourne warrior, see you at the final piste" ?

I think it's perfectly normal for a skiers forum to say "somebody killed in a collision on a mountain? Hardly surprising the way that people act".

I am often pulled up by people asking why I ski off piste, because it's dangerous with avalanches and trees and rocks and that sort of thing. And the simple answer is... avalanches... yeah they're fairly unpredictable but trees, rocks and owt else stay still. Avalanches are no less predictable than other people. And other people are by the biggest danger on the slopes.

As pointed out here, too common for people to think a big smash is all part of a fun day on the mountain. Too common for people to ski beyond their ability, in areas beyond their ability, and create accidents out of a selfish inability to recognise their own limits. On skis you can hit the UK national speed limit, on slopes no wider than roads... yet in a car you need a driving license and on skis you need a £50 lift pass.

I don't think it's unreasonable to find skiers and boarders looking at this going... "we need to talk about this - something needs to change"
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@gazzaredcruiser, threads on the forum are a bit like a conversation down the pub: they might start on one topic and move on to something related, or switch entirely to something unrelated. I'm not sure how that can be seen as disrespectful. As far as I can see everyone has, like you, expressed sympathy or sadness for the victim, and moved to a reasonable, IMO, debate about how such incidents happen, what might be done about preventing such things and criticising examples of collisions posted on Youtube. There have been a few diversions along the way, but like conversations down the pub isn't that to be expected? As somebody else said earlier in the thread, if you want examples of stupidity and crassness check out the comments on some of those Youtube videos. As is usual on snowHeads, the debate here has been very civilised and very reasonable, IMO.
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gazzaredcruiser wrote:
@rob@rar, fair point and nicely put, but i guess @ronaldothefrog, and @MadMountainMan, are just suggesting a new tread would have been more respectful of the OP. Which we all agree was very sad. just sayin'

Well the OP was AlpineAddict and as far as I can see he was just reporting the news and had no connection with the victim.

And indeed even in that OP AA said:

Quote:
I did a quick google search to see if I could find anymore information on this and was amazed at how many articles came up for the last 2 years of deaths on the slopes... A stark warning that whilst we all love and enjoy skiing / snowboarding, it can also be very dangerous if you're not careful...


Etc.

So in fact I am not sure the thread as drifted at all from the OP.
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Quote:


@gazzaredcruiser, threads on the forum are a bit like a conversation down the pub: they might start on one topic and move on to something related, or switch entirely to something unrelated


Furthermore, as they increase in length the chance of someone complaining that the thread is intrinsically evil increases proportionately.
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rob@rar wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
A person swerving randomly across a busy cat track might be right in the eyes of the FIS is someone is unable to avoid them but they have really invited it upon themselves.
As frustrating as it is, and I share your pain, they have just as much right to ski like a dick as you do to ski in a fast and responsible manner.


Oh I agree & I plan my route to know where my "bail" is in the event of encountering Eric Erratic or Rachel Random.

I'm thinking of a particular place where at certain times of day there is zero let up of traffic and whether skiing fast or slow you are probably 3 abreast. Under such circumstances stopping or even moving off your line is highly unwise. Taking on the personal responsibility to ski repectfully at the speed of the lowest combatant, as we are often advised, is personally hazardous as it puts you in the line of fire for longer. I've seen some amusing shunts however as multiple people swerve.
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ronaldothefrog wrote:
jedster wrote:
@ronaldothefrog,

You really think it is sanctimonious to expect people to accept their responsibility for not putting other people at needless risk? If so I'll take the label but I have to say that anyone who doesn't accept that responsibility is a selfish t0sser.


I think it's sanctimonious that in a thread about someone tragically dying due to an accident, it quickly spirals into speculation about who was probably to blame; followed by war stories about who has been crashed into most badly by a snowboarder/skier and all the accompanied bravado and moral superiority.

Most of the time accidents are caused by someone being out of control, whether they're on skis or boards is pretty irrelevant. Sometimes accidents happen and it's just not clear who was at fault.
Reading through the comments here it's like a lot of people have forgotten that they weren't always as proficient as they are now. I'd be surprised if every person on here hadn't, at some point in their lives, been responsible for an incident on the slopes; regardless of how major or minor. A lot of people on here need to get over themselves IMO.


Your post above raises two separate points.
Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with speculating about causes and who was at fault, and as rob_rar points out the thread moved on from discussing the La Plagne accident many days ago. That's normal for any conversation/discussion.

As for your second point I largely agree. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is a sport that carries some inherent risks, one of which is collision. Good etiquette is important, but you can't eliminate all risk of collision and I wouldn't want to turn skiing into such an over-regulated activity that it loses all the fun. I don't believe in banning alcohol, installing piste police, limiting beginners to certain slopes etc.
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I believe in piste police at certain places - they work well in moderating asshattery

I also believe that, while recognising that over terraining is part and parcel of skiing development people who drag their mates to inappropriate places on the "you'll be fine" basis assume responsibility for keeping them safe. And that includes making sure they know the score on FIS code etc.
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SlipnSlide wrote:
SkiG wrote:
To all those who think that having a beer on the slope is unreasonable, just like driving, I can only assume that you have read the research which shows driving tired is more dangerous than with a small amount of alcohol.

I therefore assume that as soon as you feel tired that you get the next lift down the mountain for the sake of everyones safety? And you limit your skiing to ensure that at no stage you are tired on the hill?

No...didnt think so.

Nothing wrong with a beer or two on the mountain. Getting drunk is a different issue.


The advice against not driving tired, means you shouldn't drive when you are feeling sleepy, struggling to keep your eyes open and can't concentrate on the road. Similarly I would suggest that anyone who starts nodding off while skiing down a piste should get the next lift down.

That doesn't mean its wrong to ski if you feel physically tired in your legs but still mentally alert. Just as there's nothing wrong in driving home from the gym after a strenuous workout.


Sure, but most skiers would be able to stop a significant amount quicker with fresh legs than with tired ones. If you consider the situation of a skier who has been up for first lift and skied non-stop to 1pm, stopped for a leisurely lunch with a beer and then continued on at 2pm, and the same skier up for first lift and skiing without stopping. At 2.15 I would argue in many peoples cases the former would be the safer skier.

The point is that trying to suggest any alcohol is unacceptable due to risk to others is ridiculous
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