 Poster: A snowHead
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Every time I go skiing I always seem to find a run that almost makes me wish I was at work (well perhaps not that bad).
It's usualy one that I have seen from a chairlift over a couple of days and increasing confidence has made it look easier and easier until I decide to have a go.
Without fail its one that you have gone beyond the point of no return before you arrive at the section that from the lift looked a doddle but now turns your bowels to water.
Do I need glasses or should I take lessons? [/b]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Stephen Sadler wrote: |
Do I need glasses
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Well I don't know about that, but perhaps you need one of these? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's a well known fact that runs always look easier from the lifts. Some kind of optical delusion.
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Stephen Sadler, take a lesson, and when you're on it, ask the instructor to take you down said slope. (using instructors as guides is a great way to do steep stuf you wouldn't normally try)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Steep doesn't really bother me, but icy+steep and bumpy+steep and bumpy+icy+steep do...mmmm...not forgetting narrow+steep...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Ian Hopkinson wrote: |
| Steep doesn't really bother me |
I guess it all depends on HOW steep!
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Stephen Sadler, as Arabian Ian states: slopes always look easy from the chairlift. They often also have an easy intro with the nasty bit hidden over the first or second dip.
One way down is to forget the whole slope and concentrate on just one turn at a time. Turn, stop, bite of chocolate (optional), swig from hipflask (optional), and turn again.
If you are really ruining your underpants, try a long traverse, stop at the edge of the piste, fall gently into the piste, roll onto your other side and swing your legs over (now pointing back onto piste), get up and proceed with another long traverse to other side of the piste, and so on down.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Following Serge and concentrating on both him and my skiing it was a doddle
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It's not only the mental attitude. You also have to know how to choose your line. When you take that lesson try to memorise the line taken, and then try to ski the slope again, alone, on the same line. Concentrate on the line instead of the instructor. Do not think of your turn, but think of your next turn. Think ahead.
I think the mountain is plenty scary so i am careful (but not afraid) and i respect the mountain. Don't want to be on the mountain with someone that does not.
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Stephen Sadler, just plan your exit first (that shot through the trees to the next run over...) 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
roll onto your other side and swing your legs over (now pointing back onto piste)
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That's the wimp version of a kick turn. Used to be taught to beginners. You're supposed to do it standing up leaning back onto both poles planted up slope and facing down. Stand on uphill ski only. Lift the downhill ski to vertical and let it fall with tip pointing back the way you came. You'll now have both skis alongside each other but pointing in completely different directions. Transfer weight and swing the other ski round. A useful way of turning when forward progress was no longer possible and you'd insufficient bottle to go for the fall line.
Haven't seen anyone do this for years.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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For those of you out there who don't quite follow kuwait_ian's explanation of the Standing Turn: here is the picture version , with skis removed to aid understanding.
Personally, I have never managed this without getting terrible tangled .
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Jonpim, Good Ones. The 3rd position of the feet is (as it happens) correct for the half way point in a Standing Turn.
The real thing also frequently results in a tangle of legs, poles and a tumble. Maybe that's why it's fallen from grace. But there are times when it can be the only way out of a bind. Your version is easier to do and to describe but I've an aversion to deliberately sitting down on snow. Comes from being a skier not a boarder.
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You know it makes sense.
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kuwait_ian, I have 2 problems with your manoeuvre:
1. I am not very flexible and find it hard to get the mid position with both feet pointing in opposite directions.
2. If I do manage somehow to get to the mid position, I am then stuck because can't get the other leg round.
Lots of laughter all round, and the only way I can get out of the impasse is to fall over.
There is a variation of this for steep slopes in deep snow:
1. Stand on upper ski, swing lower ski to 90 degrees to slope
2. Dig tail of this ski deep into slope up to bindings, then stand on this ski
5. Repeat action for other ski
Mid positon is standing relaxed with back to slope and both skis sticking out of the slope with the tail half buried.
This manoeuvre I can do because is does not depend on ballet-like contortions.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Alan Craggs, I go touring in one of these .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sideslipping? Even very steep run will have a section that is a 'less' steep and once you sideslip down to it you can turn comfortably.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sideslipping, fine, turning fine, what when you can do neither? You know, when someone says, "What, walk through the village? No, you can drop off the edge of the car park! There's a track!"
Yes, there is. It's like a track made by people on a drag lift. And it's steep. Well, it's not really steep at all but you can't turn, or plough, or do anything except point your skis and go. And be in control enough to do a right bend then a left bend before it flattens and widens and you're OK. And you know that you can do it. In fact, if it was wider you wouldn't hesitate, you probably wouldn't slow down anyway. But because you know you can't slow down, somehow your nerve goes and you can't do it. But you did it yesterday  But today you have to be talked into it, you lean back because you're scared and it all goes horribly wrong. Why?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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maggi, FEAR: False Evidence Appearing Real (thanks to Zip Ziglar for teaching me that!). Responsibility: our ability to respond to situations outside of our emotional reaction or even logic. The point is doing what you know you need to do to be successful even when your body wants to do something completely different.
This is the bridge to expert skiing (and many other areas of life, too!).
Somehow, I bet Stephen Sadler knows this inherently from his experience running a multinational business. It just isn't always obvious how to apply it to skiing.
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Hey Fox, methinks you're remembering some of our sketchy descents. Dang but that was fun! (Once we all got down safely to the lounge.)
The "key" to skiing steeps is completing turns. The "key" skill for skiing steeps is a solid short radius turn.
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I've often turned left in a car when given a 'right' instruction. That would have been a problem, yes?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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markP, no, it would have been one less person in the group.
I mean, do you know the Cliffs of Insanity?
Well, they are a walk in the park in comparison.
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ssh, Hi Steve.
You are right, but its is also due to familiarity and experience.
We all make decisions in our daily lives (including work) without giving them a great deal of thought, based around our level of experince in that particular area.
Sometimes you have tough calls to make but again experience (knowledge) usualy guides you in the right direction.
I guess its the same with skiing in that something that scares me is another skiers fun based on our relative experience and levels of skill.
As you know I am a relatively cautious skier as I realy cannot afford to injure my right arm and whilst when I am comfortable on runs this is not an issue it becomes a major problem when I get on something thats awkward.
This probably should not be the case because I feel that I am getting to be a fairly competent skier but once the head goes I am back to beginner levels and struggling rather than skiing.
Having said that I usualy make a do and once I have got down the next time is usualy easier although I have had times that called for a visit to the nearest hut for an alcoholic nerve settler.
Stephen.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Stephen Sadler, I can totally relate.
For me skiing is about FUN, not improving/impressing/reflecting/progressing/philosophizing or even overcoming my vertigo (although skiing has helped that ailment).
Wiping out is not under the definition of FUN in my dictionary. So if we're talking CLIFFS then very simple solution - take off skis and hike down! Or just fall a lot - effective brake mechanism and if you're moving slowly no injury should ensue.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Having said that I usualy make a do and once I have got down the next time is usualy easier although I have had times that called for a visit to the nearest hut for an alcoholic nerve settler.
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Lots of sensible advice previously - but if you are going to settle your nerves, could settle them before going down...
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You know it makes sense.
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When I saw the subject of this thread, I thought it was going to be on beer prices in the resorts. I think they've made me swear more than the slope steepness. 
Maybe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I realize that this thread is about skiing the steeps, but some people have recommended that if a slope gets too steep for comfort, the skier should take off their skis, and either walk down, or sit down and slide.
I feel obliged to insert a caveat that this is an absolutely terrible idea if the snow surface is hard (which is exactly when most people lose their confidence). In such conditions, you will get much better purchase with your ski edges, and you should keep your skis on even if it means sidestepping the entire way down the steep section, inches at a time.
Just this season, on several different occasions, I had to help people get down our green slope at night, after the snow had become hard. They had taken off their skis and found themselves paralyzed with fear because they immediately realized they couldn't take a step without slipping and falling, and once they fell, it was almost impossible to stop.
The only conditions in which I would tell someone to take off their skis and walk is if (a) the snow is soft and they can dig their boots into it; or (b), they can get themselves to the edge of the slope where they can either walk down on exposed rocks, find softer snow, and/or hold on to tightly spaced trees. Plastic ski boots and skiing outerwear don't give enough traction on smooth hardpack, even on very shallow angle pitches. On steep pitches, once you start sliding, the probability of starfishing / rag-dolling becomes significant, and that is something you definitely want to avoid.
With respect to fail-safe methods for descending in situations when the skier doesn't feel confident turning through the fall line at the end of each traverse:
1) In 30 years of skiing the east coast of the USA, I have never once seen snow deep enough and of the correct consistency for the the "dig-in-your-tails" method to work. I've done it a couple of times myself, out west, but mostly as an experiment.
2) With a timid skier who is afraid to turn through the fall line, change their focus from "let me show you how to ski this scary pitch" to something like, "Ah, it's finally steep enough for me to show you this great little exercise". Have them execute a series of falling-leafs from one edge of the trail to the other, and after a few of these, they probably will be below the steep section that had just scared them. If they aren't confident enough to actually ski backwards, then just have them push themselves backwards with their poles at a very shallow angle of descent or even a 90 deg traverse. They can do their descending on the forward moving half of the exercise. If they are up to it, convert the forward moving half of the exercise to a series of mini J-turns (ie, uphill garlands, all in the same direction). In addition to getting them down, concentration on the task will distract them from their fear. The twin tip design of many modern powder skis makes the falling leaf now possible, even in soft snow conditions.
3) In reasonable snow conditions, if a person can't do a kick turn and there is a more experienced skier to help them, position the more experienced skier on the downhill side of the other skier, and have them dig their poles into the snow just below the downhill ski of the timid skier. This will prevent them from slipping. The timid skier can then take off their uphill ski, turn around and put it back on (perhaps, with the aid of the other skier) facing the other direction.
HTH,
Tom / PM
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Poster: A snowHead
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Maggi, if you're on a very narrow track with no room for ANY kind of stem or snowplough to slow yourself down, you could try an ancient technique that I've only ever seen in books, from the days when basically no-one knew how to turn anyway. Sit on your poles, with the points digging into the snow between the tails of the skis. This should work (though I've never tried it myself!)
Another crazy technique for slowing yourself down without turning (this one I have tried, but only on a monoski) requires a fairly steep slope with lots of deep soft snow. You just lean WAY back, and go straight down the fall-line, with your tail(s) digging in the snow, and your tip(s) a couple of feet off the ground!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks for the caveat, Physicsman. I now count my blessings never to have encountered steep AND icy at the same time!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Plake said
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Sit on your poles, with the points digging into the snow between the tails of the skis.
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Em, thanks for the suggestion (I think!) but I'm not entirely clear about this position. Which part would I be sitting on and where do the handles go 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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maggi, don't tempt us....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Last time I went skiing (this past saturday in fact), the snow was crap, it has snowed one meter during the previous week, but the snow hadn't settled, so there were little avalanches around (no one happened while I was there, all were previous to my passing), plus the weather was fine but cloudy, warm, close to hot.
Avalanche risk was advertised as 3 out of 5...
It was not steep, not really, but due to the strange, unsettled snow, I had to hop turn most of the time, the empty sound I was receiving from the run every time my skis were making contact made me decide to call it a day and go home.
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Going back to kick turns (sorry, I only just found this site), if the slope is really, really steep a kick turn is dangerous: instead you have to do a jump turn, if possible taking off from the top foot (but don't try that until you have practiced it alot on safer slopes).
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Good point, Snowball. Someone not experienced at kick turns can get themselves all tangled up, and that certainly isn't a good thing on very steep terrain.
My mention of kick turns was only in the context of a skier just venturing onto steeper terrain and who would probably regard a USA single black as steep. If such a skier finds themselves on a seriously steep pitch (ie, over 50 deg or 120% grade), they've got problems. If at all possible, they probably should bail out, or, if that isn't an option, sideslip/sidestep the pitch. If the consequences of a fall are severe, a rope from the patrol (or someone competent) is probably not a bad idea.
Tom / PM
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowball, we are trying to help Stephen Sadler down a slope that has just turned his bowels to water. I don't think now is the time to be trying Jump Turns, or his bowels will be flowing down the slope.
Kick Turns I have never mastered (due to the leg tangling problem you describe), but Jump Terms I have. Even so, Jump Turns are not for the beginner. I would only think of them as a way of dealing with a steep narrow slope, such as a couloir. If there was enough room, then just do a "normal" turn.
I like the idea of the old fashioned Sit-on-poles Break though: might give that a try next season.....
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> ...I like the idea of the old fashioned Sit-on-poles Break though: might give that a try next season.....
Make sure you first try it straightlining an easy green. I recall trying it once, many years ago, and finding that the ammt of braking it provided was next to worthless.
Tom / PM
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FAQ
.Following Serge and concentrating on both him and my skiing it was a doddle.As I said to the wife afterwards,I could have been skiing over my front lawn,it really did make that much difference.One lesson changed my approach and removed many of the false fears in my head.I shall now make it a rule to have at least one lesson in any week,and use that to push my boundery further and further.As my man said to me"its not the mountain thats scary;just your view of it".Very deep these French 
(Don't think either will help with a real cliff though!! 
I eventually came to a halt, a long way down and by good fortune hit nothing / nobody. 
This was totally due to my own ineptitude as, being a glutton for punishment, I went for an almost identical repeat run down the same piste the next day! 
PS The ski looks incredibly blue from that position. 
