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Falls?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I am already a reasonable skier and wondered what it is like to learn snowboarding, making the switch.

I have a bad back and I wondered what the falls were like. I could tolerate some and I rarely fall when on skis, so trying to decide if I would be okay to give it a go.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
You will fall learning everyone does, generally it's your coccyx that takes the punishment if your interested but your backs an issue I'd invest in a good back protector. Learning to snowboard is a steep learning curve but you'll get to the point where you can get about quite quickly and learn to fall properly.
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Quote:

I wondered what the falls were like

Puzzled A bit difficult to describe really.... sometimes a real slam, when you catch an edge, which can be onto your front or your back. Sometimes more of a plop onto your backside through not committing properly to an edge change. Sometimes a complete somersault when the same thing happens at higher speed. IME. I was a competent skier when I learnt boarding and I fell A LOT. My son's girlfriend, who learnt with me, fell a lot less because she tended to side slip more than I did. We would set off down a blue slope together, me turning, her doing elegant falling leaves. We got to the bottom around the same time...... but I spent more time on the ground.

I don't board anymore (too old) and never got good at it but I do ski (and rarely fall) with quite a few of boarders, including one or two very good ones. They still fall because they try new stuff.

The best way NOT to fall too much is to have top tuition, preferably one to one.

But if I had had a bad back I wouldn't have taken up snowboarding, to be perfectly honest.

Armour helps - a bit.

Maybe do a "learn to board in a day" course at one of the domes - after that, you'll know whether you want to continue

It's great when you get it right. snowHead
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Second what @francium. says, but I'd possibly also say that falls themselves might not be your problem, but maybe the constant getting yourself back up or rolling about to try straighten the board back out after a fall will, and thats not something armor or padding will help much with.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

sometimes a real slam, when you catch an edge, which can be onto your front or your back.



...and if you do that one right, you'll slam hard enough that you bend backwards enough to hit yourself in the head with your own snowboard... we call that one "The Scorpion".

Quote:

I don't board anymore (too old)

Sorry Pam, but nuts to that. I've met loads of older people who snowboard and the majority learned later in life to keep on the mountain after skiing destroyed their knees.
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Two of the guys I snowboard with regularly are late 40's early 50's and I know people older than that who do, it's much easier on your joints once you get to a reasonable level. And @pam w it's not snowboarding if you're doing falling leaf down a mountain.
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Quote:


Maybe do a "learn to board in a day" course at one of the domes - after that, you'll know whether you want to continue



I would not recommend more than a couple of hours at a time to start.

An all day course is called a crash course for a reason!
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Sorry Pam, but nuts to that.

Well, the absolute reason was a diagnosis of bone thinning (after I fractured my pelvis in a relatively low trauma fall). But that, in turn, is caused by old age. I was in my mid 50s when I started snowboarding.... probably left it too late. wink

I'd still recommend the learn in a day courses. That's what I did, on the basis that I'd really know, at the end of that, whether I wanted to continue! I was the oldest by probably 30 years - it was a fun day, though I could scarcely move the next couple of days. Laughing Sure, you'll fall a lot and be knackered at the end, but that's the whole point. Are you up to Rule 5, or not.....
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pam w wrote:
I'd still recommend the learn in a day courses. That's what I did, ... I was the oldest by probably 30 years

Ah, that reminded me of my friend! She rang the Snowdome for information and to book a learn in a day course. She gave the name (male) and explained that it wasn't for her but was a special birthday present and asked if did they age concessions on the prices. "How old is the little fellow?" was the answer. "Em, 65, it's my husband." Laughing
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At 56 I'm dabbling with boarding with 30+ skiing years behind me. Slam shorts are a good investment, but I actually find the problems for the older learner (especially one with a bad back) are more to do with clipping in and getting up. Having observed many board in a day courses I would hesitate to recommend one to anyone over 40 unless they were very fit and flexible. Finally if you are going to try now is a good time - slush is much better at absorbing the inevitable falls than boiler-plate. But, well worth giving it a go, at the very least it gives you an insight into how the other half slide.
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I met someone once (of advancing years...) who was using flows as it involved less effort to clip in.
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Laughing @maggi,

When I learnt, my uncle (some 30+ years my senior) gave it a go one day... after a morning slamming his backside down on the piste he could barely sit down for lunch! He decided against the afternoon session.

Like others, I found that 2-3 days of determination and some one-to-one tuition got me to a stage where I could begin to cruise blues and some reds. Not elegantly, but with enough control. Still loving my snowboard, twenty years later (aged 45).

Does your back trouble prevent you from bending? Strapping on the bindings pretty much has to be done sitting down on the snow, and getting up might be an issue for you if you've got a bad back. Of course, a friendly skier might offer you a hand to help you up - as I keep asking my kids to do!
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 You know it makes sense.
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Depending on the nature of your back trouble I'd be a little wary. I aggravated an existing injury with a fairly innocuous tumble in a dome and am still not right. I suspect that a lack of fitness and flexibility may have been my downfall though.
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Quote:

I met someone once (of advancing years...) who was using flows as it involved less effort to clip in.

Yep, Flow bindings do help a lot- you can clip in fast, on your toe edge, and set straight off. I had no problem clipping in, that was the least of my worries. I rode button lifts with my back foot strapped in too - made it far easier and quicker to roll out of the track if I fell. The ONLY time I wrenched a knee was falling off at the top of a chairlift (because bloody skiers were standing round faffing with their poles.... Evil or Very Mad ). I had my rear foot free and the end of the board dug in the snow and wrenched my front knee quite badly. With both feet strapped in, knees are pretty well OK.

When I went and bought the Flow bindings the lad in the shop told me they weren't good on rails. I looked at him sternly and said "Do I look like I care??". He just larfed.

Yes, I suppose you need to be flexible, and active, to do a "board in a day course". But it's a fast way of finding out whether you can cope with it. wink Because I live some hours drive from a snowdome I wasn't going to go back and forth doing a series of lessons.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
GimmieSnow wrote:
I am already a reasonable skier and wondered what it is like to learn snowboarding, making the switch.

I have a bad back and I wondered what the falls were like. I could tolerate some and I rarely fall when on skis, so trying to decide if I would be okay to give it a go.
Well it depends what you want to do. If it's spinny tricks off cliffs or over rails or man-made features then... well, I've no idea, as it's not something I've any interest in. For piste and powder on the other hand.... my personal experience is all I have as a reference. I was an above average skier. It took maybe 4 hours to work out how to ride down a small Finnish hill without falling over. That did not make me a snowboarder: realizing that I needed to work at it for the next couple of seasons did that.

I never use any "protection" any more than I would when skiing. I can see why people doing aerial ballet over rails may want that stuff.

To make the switch, no doubt it depends on the individual. IMHO you either want to do it or you don't: if you're not sure, then it'll be hard and you'll be crap. If you want to do it, as I did, then you'll do it and that's that. I never doubted I'd learn to ride well, the only issue was how long it might take.

I was obviously slower and worse on a board whilst I continued to learned, but I never encountered the sort of random falling problem some people seem to find with snowboarding. My guess is that they have learned to side-slip not ride the edge. If you're on the edge then it's not significantly different from skis, from a "likelihood of fall" perspective, in my experience.

What's it like. Well first off you probably temporarily go from being the fastest on the slope to being the slowest, which is disconcerting. You'll find it frustrating that those things you used to cruise are temporarily impossible or difficult, but you just need to push through that and put the work in. I'd sell your ski gear, so you're not even tempted to avoid learning those hard things on your board. And then there's a huge rush of accelerated learning: because snowboarding builds on existing skills, you learn much faster than you did when you learnt to ride skis.

Bad back... can't see that's much os an issue either way, unless you're doing inverted aerials and planning on landing on your head, in which case no protection will help and existing back problems aren't relevant.

Falling is not a necessary evil of snowboarding; broadly I don't do it any more, you just get out of the habit with enough practice. Everyone (skier/ boarder) falls now and then, the trick is not to do it on camera or when anyone's looking.
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In the course of a week I will normally have a few tumbles, certainly more than my wife skier, I think it is down to two issues, first, I push myself much more than her and second, you only have one edge vs two. I thought that the one vs two is the main reason why you are more likely to have a tumble in icy/bumpy conditions vs skiing.

However when I was away a few weeks ago at Easter I hurt my back on the third run on my first day, felt like a slipped disk at the base of my spine when I landed a 180 (so a bit of twisting involved) of a cat track across a black run, I felt something pop on landing. It was very sore but luckily I had paracetamol and ibuprofen with me so poped a few and carried on. My back remained sore all holiday but what was interesting was that I did not have a fall for the entire week. So it would seem that pushing hard is more likely to cause a fall than the single edge for normal riding.
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I've always thought that the one edge/two edge thing a bit of a misnomer, as aren't skiers only supposed to weight the uphill ski if they're "Doing it right" (says the man whose never put on a pair of skis in his life?)
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Quote:

aren't skiers only supposed to weight the uphill ski if they're "Doing it right" (says the man whose never put on a pair of skis in his life?)

uphill edge, maybe. wink The thing is, there's no snowboarding equivalent of a snowplough.
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@Richard_Sideways, yes, but when skidding across ice particularly having two feet means you can balance on both feet until you find some snow you can grip on seems to make a difference. Often when I skid across a patch of very hard ice I know that the snowboarder behind might struggle with it and frequently can predict a fall - there is no easy way to put something out to steady yourself when both feet strapped to one board.
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wink Actually the snowboarding equivalent of a snowplough is IMHO the "side-slip the board and torque the back around when you need to change direction" technique as used by expert beginner snowboarders.

Weighting skis: not an argument I would win these days, but from memory I think ya want to weight them both if you're effective.

Ice is definitely hard on snowboards. In... quite a lot of seasons I only ever came across one day when the ice was so bad you could not ride - that was in Cervinia after a rain/ freeze cycle. Skiers couldn't ride it either. I don't ride a lot of ice I guess, maybe skates are good on it? As a trade, snowboards are easier in crud, crust, and slush.

Two edges make bump fields easier, that's the step-action thing which you don't get on a board. I think just standing up on a board is probably harder than standing up on skis; that's only an issue for day one though, it's easy to balance on edge once you get the hang of it.
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Just to add my experience. I started boarding at 50+ after becoming (I hope) a reasonable skier. I had a quick play one day in resort with Hubby (and a hire board), then did a day snowdome course and found that no problem at all, tiredness or fall wise.
I then had many days of tantrums, pain, tears and vows never to go near a board whilst trying to advance my skills on a chopped-up, ice-lined snowdome (and probably on a board that wasn't flexible enough to cope with it) - but then went out to a resort with good deep proper powder snow and then another with nice proper spring snow, plus hired and then purchased a board which was right for me, and very forgiving and easy to ride, and I'm suddenly loving it and improving very quickly (I again hope...).

As to the original point about falls - yes, it's the horrid and unavoidable thing about boarding, especially in the first few weeks. Falls on boards, when you "catch edges" (when making turns), are very quick, very sudden and often like whiplash - and you can't avoid then when learning. Generally you'll fall on your posterior or sides of hips, though you can also pitch (or fly) forwards quite well. (There's a very scary article somewhere on the net which I once read about the mechanics and physicas of snowboard falls - interesting, but wouldn't recommend finding it, really...)
Hubby says that the fast you go (i.e. once you get some confidence), the easier it is; maybe he's right. I just know that a lot of learning boarding seems to be about developing balance, confidence, relaxation and somehow just instinct. You learn, like in ski-ing, to cope with less than smooth conditions and to recover from a potential edge catch or wobble and not go over. (OK, and you still fall over, go boom, sometimes Sad ) I also find it generally easier to stop a baord (or put the brakes on) tan with skis, so sometimes it's easier to avoid a fall situation in that way, too.
If or when you fall, as someone else said, sometimes it'll be a fast hard one and sometimes you can do ski-like spectacular cartwheels (which are interesting when both feet are strapped firmly into the binginds; I do know someone who broke thier ankle this way and it does always worry me). However, the main injury issue is often said to be wrist-related (putting hands out to cushion a fall). Personally so far that hasn't been an issue at all, but I can see how it could be. Wrist protectors are often recommended, as are back protectors and impact shorts. I don't do the 2 former ones (I ride only on piste and don't yet do tricks or significant jumps) but IMHO you can never have enough padding around the buttocks, coccyx and sides of thighs - that's where you'll hit most (though I managed to get a huge bruise on the front of my thich once). Most impact shorts seem lacking in padding somewhere and the falls will find it. Extra roll mat padding is sweaty and bulky (why do I wear extra baggy trousers and a very long jacket and look like a saggy gnome on the slopes, I wonder?) but well worth it...

As to the bad back issue, I suffer from soft tissue, muscular (and thus spinal) stiffness and chronic pain medical conditions, which any sane person would probably say are a stupid thing to take anywhere near a board. (I agree - at least when learning!) I am, however, reasonably flexible. But, yes, it hurts like anything if I fall wrongly, especially on the slamming edge-catching falls: sends awful jaring pain right up the spine and into the neck and that takes quite a bit of recovery from for me (and a lot of painkillers and muscle relaxants). I don't get that with ski-ing and never have, and it's the one real downside for me when boarding and something which does scare me and makes me still rather cautious, especially when on harder 'snow'.

To be honest, out in Austria last month, I buggered up my wrists and various other bits by falling and sliding spectacularly, several times, from skis, whilst I was fine on the board. Course I was probably pushing it a bit more on the skis and on icier/crudded terrain... rolling eyes Having said that, I've also hit my head (helmet) on falling when boarding several times and haven't ever done that ski-ing. I guess that you can do yourself various kind of nasty injuries on either skis or boards, and especailly once you're competent, it's somewhat down to luck as much as anything.

On the positive side, it isn't as tiring or strenuous on the muscles (or, at least, it's different than ski-ing, for me and my aches and pains anyway) and if I don't fall badly then I'm in a much better energy state after boarding than ski-ing (and don't have days of aches and problems afterwards either).
I find that boarding can put a lot more musclular "rip" on the knee areas compared to ski-ing (I guess that it depends on your preferred stance set-up and technique), but I don't have knee joint issues so can't comment on that; Hubby took up boarding because learnign to ski hurt his knees, already accident-damaged.
The only other problem which I had when learning was that I couldn't stop the board after turning, so instictively put my arm out into the snow to try and slow myself - and ended up ripping all of my torso side/back muscles in the process and annoying some thoracic vertebrae. Learnt not to do that again!

I have switched to modern Flow bindings, and am still getting used to the techncique of putting them on and, personally, find the strap-style ones easier and as fast to do up - but you have to bend down (or sit down) with either type; Flows still seem to need ratcheting. Bending doesn't bother my back, but my gastric ulcer pain and reflux hates it!

OK, hope that gives you an idea. Probably paints a dire picture... Fundamentally, it is a painful experience learning boarding, and the older or more pain-prone you are, the worse it might be. But it's fun once you get the hang of it, honest. Different to ski-ing, but also with several similar similarities, and I think that it's got to be easier to learn to board - or quicker to get to a not falling over too often standard - if you have the skills, awareness and balance from ski-ing.

As someone above said, try and learn and get your confidence up on proper snow and on powder or spring conditions, rather than indoor slopes; it's easier and hurts a lot less when you can "sink gently into it".

Good luck. GIve it a go Very Happy
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Quote:

Flows still seem to need ratcheting

Puzzled With mine, you set them up to the right size for your boots and then just used the heel thing to take them off or put them on. But they're a few years old - maybe newer Flows are different.
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pam w wrote:
Quote:

Flows still seem to need ratcheting

Puzzled With mine, you set them up to the right size for your boots and then just used the heel thing to take them off or put them on. But they're a few years old - maybe newer Flows are different.


I had old Amps (and so did Hubby) and pretty much, yes, you just moved the back. The newer ones seem a bit harder to get into (I have Omnis, he has Fuse), and we both find that you have to loosen the toe and maybe midfoot ratchets to enable easy exit and entry. Mind you we both like riding them very tight.
I think this was why they actually introduced the ratcheting system as the old ones were undo and slide adjusters, and some people complained that they needed to loosen and tighten more easliy and quickly. Not a hassle really.
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Interested, as I bought myself a pair of old Flow 11s on tat-bazaar a couple of months back - predominantly to try them in the domes over regular cap-strap bindings. Got 'em for less than £30 so they don't owe me much if I don't get on with them.
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Guess a bit off topic re Flows, really - and there's doubtless more been said elsewhere.
Personally, however, I find them good and they offer a lot of foot control (which suits me, maybe not others). I don't like the toe cap design of modern twin strap bindings at all, so that pretty much these days takes a lot of the twins out - and I don't find often that many sit in the right place where I want to feel control: I want the binding high up the foot and into the front of the ankle and over the top of the forefoot itself, not on the toes. OK, I have a small foot, and I'm a skier by background, so I like this kind of feeling, maybe. Then again, hubby is a hugepaw, and doesn't ski and he likes the same type of feel. We're both predominently piste boarders though do play a bt with little jumps and on-piste spis, turns, whatever.
I am happy riding twin straps, but can't seem to get them stiff enough or covering enough of the foot in the right place for what I want out of them (especially when I need a small/female binging as well).
The other nice things about the new Flows is that the backbone (or whatever you call it) plate's tension/pressure against the heel/rear ankle is very very easy to adjust, just a roller wheel, so one-handed instant.
Downside: they're heavy. New ones not as heavy as the old ones, but still a lot more than twin straps in general. Also, I think, generally more expensive, especially as you go up the stiffness / 'better' ones.
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Also, I think, generally more expensive, especially as you go up the stiffness / 'better' ones.

They do seem to hold their value pretty well. I only got the ones I did that cheaply as they were being sold as 'Spares Only' but they were only missing a screw and a locking plate which were an easy fix. I've always been a bit wary of them after some early horror stories.
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GimmieSnow wrote:
I am already a reasonable skier and wondered what it is like to learn snowboarding, making the switch.

I have a bad back and I wondered what the falls were like. I could tolerate some and I rarely fall when on skis, so trying to decide if I would be okay to give it a go.


Falls while boarding tend to be 'harder' than when skiing, much harder, especially when progressing and going over the back edge. I've known good competent skiers try and baulk at learnin' 'boarding.

'Hurts too much' and 'never again' are some of the comments I've heard.

But it's worth it, IMO.

Never, ever, 'board without a helmet.
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Depends on you, your back and your attitude to pain. Ignoring the bad back you can expect the first week of boarding to be painful. I was black and blue, knees, elbows and forearms all bruised to buggery, and a broken rib (I didn't realise it was broken at the time, but several years on I've now got a growth of excess bone around where it's repaired). I was thankful I'd purchased padded shorts. I'd done two half days of lessons at the snow domes before the first weeks holiday, followed by two or three recreational session at the dome; I had no problem linking turns and belting down at reasonable speed at the snowdome. Once I got to the mountain it was a different story, different gradients and terrain types and rock hard pistes (there'd been no fresh snow for a good 2-3 weeks). Getting down hard pack flat sections was the hardest, I was catching edges and slamming all over the place. But I wanted to do it and stuck with it. My stomach muscles killed as well from all the bending and sitting to do the bindings.

Oddly, despite having a bad back (in my case a prolapsed L4/5 disc and the the l3/4 disc next to it bulging slightly, treated with a short operation to chisel away bits of bone around them to give the nerves space to run around the protruding discs), I don't recall my back giving me problems at all during that week of painful learning. Probably because everything else hurt so much Toofy Grin !

So far (10+ years of boarding later), touch wood, my back has not affected my snowboarding, other than sense telling me not to try progressing to bigger park obstacles (I limit myself to the family park with easy boxes and small rollers or the smallest kickers) so I spend most my time on/off piste and scant little time in parks. I'd also probably say my core stomach and back muscles probably strengthen as a result of all the bending and binding faff whilst snowboarding though I'd probably do myself a favour if I did core strengthing exercises more generally over the year.

For me that first week of pain was worth it. Touch wood, these days I rarely have a major stack (more usually a slide on the uphill side resulting from over edging on something steep). So if boarding is what you really want to do and you are happy you could tolerate a few bashes (not all will involve landing hard on your backside, but some inevitably will), then give it a go and see how you get on. But do expect some pain more generally.

Oh and PS don't do what I did and assume that because you can happily ride the snowdome, that you can just ditch lessons in resort and head straight out around the mountain with your mates Toofy Grin
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