 Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry its only in German
http://salzburg.orf.at/news/stories/2747445/
Basically, the bergbahn in Flachau have banned tourers on the premise that they are "dangerous" and pose hazards for tourists to ski into.
Also, and probably more importantly, they don't pay for lift cards, and zigzag all over the piste.
For the first time in all my life here I am incensed.
The vast majority of tourers are locals who all have lift passes anyway.
Also, I really don't think I have ever seen a tourer in the middle of the piste, we are always at the very edge of the piste, and if we do have to cross we know to look uphill and allow the skiers right of way.
Thoughts?
I cantsee this being very popular, admittedly there were over 1000 tourers on Flachau at the weekend, but that is because there is no snow!
I am really upset as we always toured up to Lisa Alm for NYE, not any more
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 15-12-15 22:39; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Seems well over the top. I've never thought that the occasional tourer making his way steadily up the piste (always on the edge of the piste, IME) poses a risk. At least no more of a risk than anyone other skier/boarder standing at the side of the piste, and probably less of a risk than people standing in the middle of the piste.
Just out of interest, can the lift company ban people from skinning up what I assume are public slopes?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rob@rar, there is talk of you being arrested for "roaming" seeing as most of the pistes are privately owned, I think anyway. Its all very disappointing 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 15-12-15 22:48; edited 1 time in total
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Incidentally, they are saying we can tour up "through the forests" which is a bit weird as there are signs for people NOT to ski through the forests and to respect the wildlife and fauna 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's illegal to skin on the piste in Chamonix. If you're sensible and keep to the side no one bothers you. I was told off once at Le Tour, the piste patrol told me the Marie had banned it, a little put out I asked him if it was the same Marie that allow the building in Monroc, he just skied off!
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@rob@rar, the slopes are "rented" from private owners, so with the agreement of the local councils, they can.
@Kooky, I think it is a massive over-reaction by Flachau, BUT the number of people touring has dramatically increased over the past few seasons and I've had to wait on some narrower sections for some tourers to get out of the way.
The problem is that the tourers do not pay into the community as much as skiing tourists do, so a few antsy 4-star plus complaints carry way more weight. Also, while most of the locals follow the Alpenverein rules for mixing touring and downhill skiing, there are some (usually visitors in my experience) who either do not follow the guidelines and feel they have the right to go where they want to.Or they have decided to switch to touring for whatever reason and it is their choice where they go regardless. I watched a party of beginners (I presume) tourers zig-zag their way across a very busy piste last year, totally impervious to the many not so expert skiers struggling to avoid them. As ski passes get more and more expensive the problem will get worse not better unless people start to think about how to manage the situation. If nothing else this action has forced both sides to start to really think things through so both activities can take place safely and neither the lift company nor the community have to face litigation for accidents.
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It does seem excessive, but the situation described by @Samerberg Sue (groups climbing in zig zags up a piste) sounds excessive too. No snowshoers, walkers or dogs are allowed on the pistes in our area, nor on the cross-country tracks. There are quite a lot of tourers but they don't seem to tour up pistes - you get the occasional one, but always right at the edge. When I needed to get used to the gear, and skins, I walked up beside one of the chairlifts but off the edge of the piste, in preparation for an "introduction to touring" day which all took place many miles from any lifts (I rather thought that was the point and felt a twit walking up beside a lift).
I don't think tourers are banned in our area - our cross country group skied up the edge of a green piste last year, but only for the initial part of our trek. But I'd be stunned to come across tourers zig zagging up a piste and I suspect they would be banned if that started happening.
There are plenty of local by-laws (like the ones requiring bars to shut and skiers to be down the mountain before piste bashing starts) and I can't imagine they'd have any difficulty if they wanted to ban it.
Can imagine it's very annoying though!
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So, @Kooky, is it banned everywhere or just on piste?
I think I can understand an onpiste ban...
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At the moment its only on piste in Flachau.
I agree with you Sue, it is a massive over reaction. I can understand them banning it for Chritmas/Easter weeks, as Flachau is like the Highway to Hell then anyway without the added risk of people crossing the piste, but seriously, all season? I used to love doing a cheeky pre work tour up to the middle station in the spring.
As a friend said, we will just have to take our custom to the other side of the hill as is isn't banned in Wagrain.....yet 
Of course once the snow does come most will go off piste anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Seems a huge knee jerk reaction. Surely it would be simpler to just provide a few rules to avoid what Sue describes above. Has an incident actually happened at Flachau involving a piste user and a ski tourer? On the odd occasion when I have seen tourers on the side of the piste they have been some of the most courteous and friendly people on the mountain.
Hopefully someone will see some sense soon!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@pam w, as I almost always tour alone if the conditions are a bit risky I feel safer if I tour somewhere that I know I can get down from safely. A friend of mine who works in the Salzburg mountain rescue thinks if this ban becomes an Austria wide ban they will be seeing a lot more call outs. I guess we will have to wait and see.
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Time for a mass trespass?
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You know it makes sense.
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Somehow I get the feeling that many skitourers are in general boasting about the fact that they are skitourers and that piste-skiing is for sissies, but now these same people start complaining they are not allowed to used the nicely groomed pistes to easily get up the mountain.
I have been skiing for over 20 years now, and everytime a tourer going up at the side of the piste, gives me the shivers. Just because it remains a strange, unexpected movement, that you can easily overlook until you get closer.
I'm a experienced skier myself, and well able to go quickly around unexpected moving people. But I can very well see that e.g. my hesitant mother will panic if she might encounter a skitourer right there where she planned to make her turn....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have to confess that when I see people skining up the piste I am always puzzled and ask why? You have equipped yourself with the best tools available to escape the madding crowds and then choose to go where you can just get the lift up. I suppose it is like buying a 4x4 truck and only driving around town in it.
Actually in Les Arcs the people skining up the pistes were usually army patrols with guns over their shoulders so I never really asked them why.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@johnE, There are lots of possible reasons. Why do people run up hills for recreation? It's the same principle, there's a satisfaction to be had about getting somewhere under your own steam. It's also much easier to skin up a firm surface, if you're trying to get to your destination quickly, so that you can do some "real" touring. Or they might be training for some event, or a big trip.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Last year there was a large group of tourers on a Sunday morning blithely crossing a busy red run (Index) in Chamonix just around the corner from a blind bend expecting the downhill skiers a. to give way and b. yelling at them if they thought they were too close. (Notwithstanding jbob's comment about it being illegal).
I'm sorry. That's nuts. (Randoing up a piste I mean).
From a lift company's point of view
a. the tourers may have (probably?) not contributed to the cost of the surrounding infrastructure
b. there is a definite safety element. To draw the analogy to its ridiculous confusion, it's like driving around the peripherique the wrong way. Great in "Ronin" - nsg in real life.
I partially get why tourers would want to - easy access to the good stuff, training etc. but personally I don't feel that the two mix.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, I agree, they shouldn't be zigzagging up the piste, that's inconsiderate, dangerous and plain stupid. But I see no problem skinning up the edge of a piste - it's more like walking up the edge of a road than driving the wrong way on a one-way dual carriageway
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| Quote: |
I can very well see that e.g. my hesitant mother will panic if she might encounter a skitourer right there where she planned to make her turn....
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But he/she is likely to be moving pretty slowly. It could equally be a mother stopped at the side of the piste with a small child, right where she planned to make her turn. People who zig zag up pistes are behaving very foolishly and risking (as in this case) getting more sensible tourers completely banned from the slopes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Kooky, been thinking about this and reading quite a few articles in the newspapers as well as the responses and comments from skiers and tourers.
I now think the knee-jerk reaction was quite deliberate, they did it to provoke debate as well as save their necks should someone decide to sue. It is an ever-increasing problem and a compromise solution has to be found before something really serious happens.
A few years ago you'd rarely if ever see any tourers on the pistes, they were all out breaking trail and doing their own thing far away from the noise and clamour of the lift-served lemmings. Now, with less and less available terrain (perceived) due to prohibition from the Forestry people/landowners and later and later winter snowfall, they have started to use the areas that have snow, i.e. the pistes with snow cannons and tourable terrain. As the touring equipment has become lighter and technically more advanced, it has become "fashionable" to be a tourer in some parts of the community or it is a "statement" to show that they are not "conformists". Piste skiing is so last year my dear, so to speak  Whatever the reasons, more and more people are using lift-served pistes for their "tours". Many sadly, are typical "all the gear, no idea" types and it is the increasing number of these people that are going to cause the confrontations. True tourers like yourself and many experienced people will be the ones who are tarred with the same brush.
There will be a debate at community, regional and perhaps even national level and ultimately a code of practice will be defined. But until that happens it leaves the lift companies in the line of fire with the risk of litigation and the communities at risk of losing tourists. All Flachau has done is cover its back; we all know how lethal that place is when it's busy which is why we all ski elsewhere in high season. Even now with relatively few skiers/boarders, people get knocked over (Ange last Sunday for example knocked over by a stupid snowboarder), add tourers to the mix and it is a recipe for disaster. The lift companies have protected themselves from a "worse case scenario". They won't need to police it heavily because IF an accident occurs they are not responsible, the tourer who is breaking the clearly marked local by-law is.
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Will the next step be to ban boarders ?
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Watched one last year go straight up the middle of a piste at Les Menuires, my first thought was amazement at the ability to go up quite a steep slope, then watched him become a moving slalom pole for all the children on level 2 lessons. Seemed selfish to me. Anyone touring by the side of the piste has my admiration.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The lift-dodgers are a pain, but they add variety to the slopes and should not be banned.
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| deerman wrote: |
| Will the next step be to ban boarders ? |
Hah hah, I assume that's a little tongue in cheek?
It did occur to me, as I was typing above that this is very reminiscent in some ways of the boarders vs. skiers debates in the late 80s, early 90s everywhere else and right up till today on SHs 
But I think it's different economically, legally and practically that it's not just prejudice/bias.
Sue raises some good points. In Chamonix the frequency of tourers is astonishing in recent years. Not convinced snow conditions round France 74 have so much to do with it as the "classic" touring season is late winter/spring. But numbers are certainly way up.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I sometimes go touring only to ski down a piste at the end. Why? I have pretty severe ankle damage (tendonitis) in one foot, and can’t do any other cardio for long periods of time (can’t run at all, can’t hike downhill, or on uneven ground uphill, or for any useful length of time at all! only very gentle cycling with no hills etc) – but skitouring is doctor approved, so I can get out and actually do some real work for a few hours with full ankle support. I’ll admit that’s unlikely to be the reason for many people though.
I do also go actual touring to get well away from the pistes and explore too – but if it’s a bad day and I just want a bit of exercise in resort, up I go in a main area for a few hours! Luckily in Chamonix there are good tracks at GM and Les Houches away from the pistes, but ending up on them for the trip home. And they’re pretty much deserted once the ‘morning rush’ is over.
I think the ban above is too far – in Chamonix a couple of years ago they asked people not to use the pistes, but at the same time opened a new track in GM for people to skin up. I do agree with wanting to make it secure for anyone skiing downhill on piste though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I sometimes go touring only to ski down a piste at the end.
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Presumably only uphill on-piste touring is banned?
Nobody, whatever their footwear, should be allowed to travel zig zag fashion up a piste but it really is a shame that the silly sods who do that have spoilt it for the well-behaved plodder up the edge.
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You know it makes sense.
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I would have thought the vast majority of tourers are people with lift passes who sometimes choose touring as an alternative way of using the mountain, whether it's a fitness thing or to access other parts of the mountain or times when the lifts are closed.
I've done touring once (thanks to Kooky), a whole new experience for me, which I very much enjoyed. It did involve a little bit at the side of an empty piste with good visibility and I didn't see any danger. Crossing a busy piste on skins I can see would be a different matter entirely. All it takes is a few idiots with no common sense to ruin things for the majority.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've never toured, but I like the idea of it one day.
I'd have thought that the idea of touring is to go off, away from lifts and people? correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what appeals to me and mr Mountain addiction. And that's why we go hiking so much, away from crowds and people and machines, otherwise I'd just walk around the local shopping center.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Quick update as this will probably concern some of us, it looks like a Salzburg wide ban, Zauchensee look to be implementing it before Christmas, so Flangesax(Ange) no more of our tours......even though we did ours before the lifts were even open and running.
http://salzburg.orf.at/news/stories/2747683/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Regards your bollox, @mountainaddict, I suspect some don't share your sensible opinion, sadly
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Kooky, does this include your midnight moonlit tours?
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Into the dark forest???? 😏
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Filthyphil30k, at least you didn't mention my bush.
@hammerite, I hope not, but who knows?Forstau is well know for the fact you are allowed to tour up any day of the week, even nights, I guess if that is one of the few places that still allows it and they get swamped then they may ban it as well. Its such a shame, the moonlight tours are really something special.
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@Kooky, what bush? smooth.
I have been drinking.
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Stop the brutal grooming!! Oh wait...wrong thread 
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
I've never toured, but I like the idea of it one day.
I'd have thought that the idea of touring is to go off, away from lifts and people? correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what appeals to me and mr Mountain addiction. And that's why we go hiking so much, away from crowds and people and machines, otherwise I'd just walk around the local shopping center. |
Problem is at the start of the season there isn't enough snow cover to skin up through the woods so many tourers use the side of the piste to skin up and get fit until there is. Skiing down at night is much safer on the piste than through the woods too but there is the risk of a collision with a piste bully etc. I don't believe the safety Argument, IMHO it's about lost revenue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If it's about safety, they're targeting totally the wrong people.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| If it's about safety, they're targeting totally the wrong people. |
No. I bet very few of those tourers have passed the Eurotest.
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