 Poster: A snowHead
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It was pointed out to me a while ago that the most successful GBR ski race coaches are not particularly good skiers themselves. OTOH, I feel that I understand skiing stuff a lot better when I know what it feels like to do it myself.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@rjs, good points. A lack of confidence in the available grip can means skiers keep their mass directly over the skis to avoid falling inside, and so may rely on knee angulation to generate an edge angle. Decent mat condition and good skis help a lot on this, while for trainees I'd be looking to improve lateral stability so they can use hip angulation without fear of falling in.
@under a new name, to a certain extent yes, but I think those who are doing best ski regularly on a range of slopes and surfaces, i.e. mat, dome & mountain. If you've never skied on snow then the knee/hip issues @rjs pointed out may be more difficult to avoid.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@balernoStu, I'm still unsure why a well stacked, stable stance optimised for Dendix would be a significant (long term) handicap on snow.
That rigid mat stuff they used to have at Bearsden however, is an entirely different story 
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| @ALQ, I did feel a bit guilty about that bragging statement. I have no doubt that the person concerned would now have been a habitual criminal without his sport. |
I thought you were saying he was headed to the Rhinos
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name, I agree. @rjs has pointed out that many are not finding that stacked stance though. Forces build naturally higher on a mountain which benefits a stronger stance and supports more inclination, so exposure to that is probably also beneficial.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
However, I have yet to see any evidence of someone who is not good at a sport but a fantastic teacher being a successful coach at a high level. If that were true then the rugby premiership would be swamped with elite level 5 qualifications who played for Preston Grasshoppers. |
Arsene Wenger? Coaching an invincible team is a fair achievement. Jose Mourinho had a minor career in the Portuguese 2nd division but really started to learn his trade when he became Bobby Robson's interpreter at Barcelona.
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Roy Hodgson, and for those old enough Lawrie McMenemy. Preston Grasshoppers memories of Wade Dooley!
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@balernoStu, hmmm. yes, indeed. although greater inclination from modern skis on good grippy snow on translation to plastic will result in increased incidence of Hillend thumb 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
Whilst I also disagree with lots around Skipresto here I do disagree with what you say about not having to 'make the grade' as a player.
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Sailing is one of a handful of sports where GBR regularly wins medals and that would not have happened without the coaching and development system put in place by Jim Saltonshall, RYA coach for 30 years. AFAIK he had no particularly outstanding record as a sailor in his own right. |
The person who springs to mind that totally refutes Skipresto's comment is Dave Brailsford. One of the very best coaches in the world. Only ever competed as an amateur.
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| Tom Doc wrote: |
| dogwatch wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
Whilst I also disagree with lots around Skipresto here I do disagree with what you say about not having to 'make the grade' as a player.
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Sailing is one of a handful of sports where GBR regularly wins medals and that would not have happened without the coaching and development system put in place by Jim Saltonshall, RYA coach for 30 years. AFAIK he had no particularly outstanding record as a sailor in his own right. |
The person who springs to mind that totally refutes Skipresto's comment is Dave Brailsford. One of the very best coaches in the world. Only ever competed as an amateur. |
To be fair Dave competed as a sponsored 'amateur' for three years in France at a time when British Cycling was at its depths and that was about as elite a British cyclist could be.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| I don't know where these urban legends come from where racers fail L1. Presumably they are inexperienced racers. I am all in favour of inexperienced racers. |
Not urban legends. Genuine examples. I'd hardly call an ex-Scotland Team Member "inexperienced." I've PMd you the details and if you still don't believe me what not ask @balernoStu to confirm?
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@Gaza,
Nice pictures 
The skiers determination & commitment shines out from the Photo's.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Gaza, great pics
You'll remember the mat transition was halfway down the steep before they finished the re-lay, that was a bit tricky !
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
However, I have yet to see any evidence of someone who is not good at a sport but a fantastic teacher being a successful coach at a high level. If that were true then the rugby premiership would be swamped with elite level 5 qualifications who played for Preston Grasshoppers. |
Arsene Wenger? Coaching an invincible team is a fair achievement. Jose Mourinho had a minor career in the Portuguese 2nd division but really started to learn his trade when he became Bobby Robson's interpreter at Barcelona. |
Arrigo Sacchi was probably an even greater example, one of European footballs most innovative coaches, never played football above amateur level and had been a shoe salesman. His quote was "I never realized that in order to become a jockey you have to have been a horse first" when asked if he could be a successful coach.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@emwmarine,
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Taking Rugby, as your example
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Warren Gatland never won an international cap.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| mozwold wrote: |
@emwmarine,
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Taking Rugby, as your example
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Warren Gatland never won an international cap. |
But he played for Waikato which is top level rugby.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just for info..Ex team are exempt from L1 so cannot fail.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Also...skipresto may be a bit erm "vocal" about things but he has enthusiasm.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| at0mic wrote: |
| Just for info..Ex team are exempt from L1 so cannot fail. |
I'm not familiar with the BASI system, why are they exempt? As has been said already, just because somebody can do something, doesn't mean that they can teach that thing. Surely a part of the lvl 1 is going through the teaching steps?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
| Only the best teachers pass |
you're making a joke, right? |
The full text was "Only the best teachers pass L4"
Putting it another way: If you are not able to demonstrate teaching to a world class level, you will not be allowed to pass BASI L4.
One important point to consider:
Teaching is not the same as Coaching.
My rule of thumb is:
If the person leading the session is a better skier than the people bring trained, then Teaching is taking place. The leader is a teacher.
If not, and the athletes are capable of higher performance than the leader, then the leader is being a coach.
The role of the coach is to lead and inspire the athlete to elevated performance.
Sometimes it's mixed ability and the leader needs to be both coach and teacher depending on who he is working with.
Like the L4 Tech course I attended when the BASI trainer was outskied by one of the class. The trainer Coached the Ex-Team candidate and Taught the rest of us.
World Cup racers aren't just a bit better. Their capabilities are of a completely different order of magnitude better than even the best of the BASI teachers and trainers who weren't from that background. All the trainers I have discussed this with take that as a statement of the obvious.
One of the crucial activities of a BASI teacher is to demonstrate at the highest level. Many learners watch and copy.
Some also need a full technical presentation, so the teacher must also be able to explain non-technically enough to make progress with the learner even the most technical of concepts.
As for GS...
The GS course is the easiest to ski for the untrained. i.e. to ski the course in a slow time. However it is considered to be the most technically demanding of all the race disciplines to ski a quick time.
Most untrained skiers think that GS turns are long radius. This isn't the case. The GS turn is a short radius turn that starts long-radius and tightens, then releases.
Leaving it there.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 11-10-15 20:50; edited 4 times in total
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| Many learners watch and copy. |
In my experience, not so many. My job would be much easier if I could demo a few runs and then see steady improvement in my clients. But it;s much more complicated than that, and I feel I'm actually at my most effective as a coach/instructor* when I have my skis off (if I define 'effective" as helping my clients to make a lasting change in their skiing).
* Choose whichever title you like.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| mozwold wrote: |
@emwmarine,
| Quote: |
Taking Rugby, as your example
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Warren Gatland never won an international cap. |
But he played for Waikato which is top level rugby. |
At a much, much lower level than those he is coaching.
Also Michael Cheika never played for Australia, Joe Schmidt never even played proper rugby, Hansen and Henry only played provincial rugby, Meyer reached the dizzy heights of uni rugby.
In fact, the current Tier 1 coach with the most impressive playing record is Philippe Saint-André. Who is completely useless.
EDIT - and as an aside, the game of rugby as it was played in the time when the current coaches were playing is of absolutely no relevance to how it is played and coached today.
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^ +1
@SkiPresto,
Would Lewis Hamilton and his peers make the best driving instructors simply because they can drive fast round a track?
I wish you the very best of luck with your endevour, and hope you achieve your goal.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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mozwold, The Eurotest pass level is a long way below the skiing equivalent of Lewis Hamilton.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| at0mic wrote: |
| Just for info..Ex team are exempt from L1 so cannot fail. |
Interesting. Makes me wonder why said person did his L1 if he didn't have to.  He subsequently passed a short time later albeit with a different BASI trainer.
If what you say is true then someone may not be making that clear to current squad members. When I did my L1 in August there was another current national squad member on the course. That person has also recently completed his UKCP L1.
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| mozwold wrote: |
^ +1
@SkiPresto,
Would Lewis Hamilton and his peers make the best driving instructors simply because they can drive fast round a track?
I wish you the very best of luck with your endevour, and hope you achieve your goal. |
No - but having been instructed on circuits, the instructors are always current or ex-top flight race car drivers.
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You know it makes sense.
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| mozwold wrote: |
^ +1
@SkiPresto,
Would Lewis Hamilton and his peers make the best driving instructors simply because they can drive fast round a track?
I wish you the very best of luck with your endevour, and hope you achieve your goal. |
Hi @Mozwald
Well the driving analogy is oft quoted and your question is often asked in one form or another.
I would answer: If I wanted to learn to be a race car driver, then the answer would be "Yes"!
The analogy doesn't port easily to the world of skiing, though.
The skier is the "car" And the "driver" in one package.
The motive power isn't an engine, it's gravity.
Without going on at length, I would say that the level of skiing required to pass the Eurotest is far below World Cup level.
With a sound grasp of the concepts, the physical preparation, the mental toughness and the technical precision, it is within most very good skiers' grasp.
I believe it is only fair to your clients that a ski teacher be a very good skier.
I admit, I've left it far too late to have a realistic chance of passing. ( I spent my youth competing in national teams but I was International Kayak Slalom and Wildwater Racing, not skiing that took up my attention).
Even although I've been skiing since age nine.
But the experience and transformation that training for Eurotest has made to my skiing has been unbelievable.
There are answers you learn during the preparation for which skiers who haven't started training GS do not yet have questions.
GS isn't some unrealistic irrelevant activity. It's the ultimate test of the skill of skiing control of speed and line, and for that reason its a pretty good test of separating the exceptionally good skier from the ordinary.
Being able to teach by demonstration, an advanced line is of great merit and utility to the customer.
It allows the holiday skier to ski faster but under full control all the way through the full turnshape and that, at a greater economy of effort.
Finally, many thanks for your good wishes and encouragement. I will not forget.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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How many learner drivers are learning for the purposes of track racing? I think we all get it that a great teacher who is also a great skier through the gates, in the pipe, jibbing rails, hucking cliffs, dropping pillows is a fantastic role model. But the words necessary and sufficient are also relevant.
The start of this thread was evidence of the self regarding macho BS that seems to surround the ET. The few, the brave " it's not that you can't ski gates, you can't ski and the gates prove it" type thinking. It looks rather strange to customers that the people they are learning from ( even generally high level) are engaged in the pursuit that the majority will fail at or drop out injured or whose devotion to will severely hamper their own actual teaching.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Not got down all this page yet but those saying top level competitors make great coaches and those who did not reach top level do not should maybe ask Venus Williams about her father Richard Williams coaching. Ask her how many grand slam finals or even down to quarter finals he competed in?
Coaching is coaching competing is competing, yes you will get top level competitors making great coaches but you get just as many if not more who never reached a high level never mind top level making fantastic coaches.
It is about the person's ability to understand and analyse, their ability to communicate solutions to improve the athlete not their physical prowess or mental ruthlessness.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@SkiPresto,
So you are saying that a very good skier ( not an instructor or racer ) can ski a WC GS course approx 12-14 seconds slower when the best complete the course in around 75 sec.
Sorry but I disagree. Try skiing with the best WC skier and see the difference even when free skiing on the mountain. A very good skier will be pushing the limit to keep up if they even can.
You are correct though re the mental toughness a racer has that in abundance. But just why would an instructor teaching on a mountain need such a high level of mental toughness ? Surely understanding to name just one aspect is preferable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
Being able to teach by demonstration, an advanced line is of great merit and utility to the customer.
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Not really for me. I'm pretty much useless at getting information from a demonstration by an instruction who is rapidly receding into the distance. I need it explained to me.
Btw I'm a customer in a supermarket. When I'm being instructed in skiing I am a client, thank you very much.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Speed098 wrote
| Quote: |
| Not got down all this page yet but those saying top level competitors make great coaches and those who did not reach top level do not |
Well, I for one am not saying that.
We are talking about ski instructors who are selected at BASI L4 in a time trial over a GS test. The Eurotest.
Coaching is a separate module.
The top level competitors, some ex World cup skiers I have trained with and worked with skied at an amazingly high level and I learned an amazing amount from skiing with them. They could also demonstrate and in a few minutes put over concepts of e.g. turn shape and timing in the GS line that I'd struggled with for years.
I've already explained the difference between the role of a Coach and an Instructor/ Teacher.
Coaches don't demo at the performance level of the athlete. They generally stand at the bottom of the course or run and give feedback.
Ski Instructing and Teaching is different to Coaching. The demos must be at the level.
As for the difference between a customer and a client: I was brought up with the saying "The Customer is King".
Customers in a commodity market can buy next door. Customers expect a product or a service to be delivered to an excellent level of quality and consistency.
Clients as I would use the word are in a longer term more generalised relationship. The service must be there but in the professional relationship e.g. between a Solicitor and his Client for instance: The Solicitor gets paid even if his Client is found guilty! (See elsewhere also).
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 12-10-15 12:53; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
I've already explained the difference between the role of a Coach and an Instructor/ Teacher.
Coaches don't demo at the performance level of the athlete. They generally stand at the bottom of the course of run and give feedback. |
No, you've explained your definition of the difference between coaching and instructing. Given that there is no agreed definition it can only be your opinion. Other people might have different opinions, equally valid. After all, we are talking about the interaction between a teacher and a learner, which is massively complex, often unique, and should be a two way relationship. Defining it as a simple comparison of who is 'best' at a particular skill set seems, to me at least, to miss the point.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Robrar
There are BASI modules for Technical, Teaching and Coaching.
I find it useful to know the difference in the roles.
| Quote: |
| Defining it as a simple comparison of who is 'best' at a particular skill set seems, to me at least, to miss the point |
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Well you made that definition of missing the point not I.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
[
One important point to consider:
Teaching is not the same as Coaching.
My rule of thumb is:
If the person leading the session is a better skier than the people bring trained, then Teaching is taking place. The leader is a teacher.
If not, and the athletes are capable of higher performance than the leader, then the leader is being a coach.
The role of the coach is to lead and inspire the athlete to elevated performance.
Sometimes it's mixed ability and the leader needs to be both coach and teacher depending on who he is working with.
Like the L4 Tech course I attended when the BASI trainer was outskied by one of the class. The trainer Coached the Ex-Team candidate and Taught the rest of us.
Leaving it there. |
Couldn't disagree more. If there is to be a difference then a teacher transfers their knowledge to the student in order for the student to acquire a skill or technique. A Coach uses their skill and/or knowledge and works with the student to improve these techniques in a 2 way process.
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^Big restriction on to Technique there.
What about the others?
TTPPEE?
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 12-10-15 12:43; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've been reading this thread over the last few days and I think there is merit in both sides of the discussion BUT I also think that having to pass the ET is a little OTT.
Some years ago I was a a Club Instructor under the ESC scheme and I recall being told that we couldn't teach someone to ski we could only help them learn! With this in mind we quickly discover that some people learn best from a demo and others from a well thought out description which might need to be different for different people. Positive feedback was also essential to helping the class improve their technique which by definition starts to become coaching albeit not at a high level for competition.
I also discovered that some more qualified instructors (ASSI) whilst better skiers and with a very good understanding of the skill didn't always make the best instructors for a group of beginners. A set of skills and qualifications don't always equate to the empathy necessary to help someone with an innate fear of falling over to master a new skill.
I'm sure that passing the ET does show that someone has great technique and the balls to use that at high speed. It doesn't prove that the person can pass on that technique nor that they can help a group of timid, unfit, beginners to be able to ski safely down a nursery slope and stop without falling over or wiping out the rest of the class (which is probably the largest group of skiers in ski school). On the other hand someone who can do the latter, who then passes the ET can probably pass on those "expert" skills to the more experienced skier who wants to progress past the intermediate plateaux.
I wish SkiPresto the best of luck in his endeavours and I hope it brings the satisfaction he seeks.
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[quote="SkiPresto"]
The full text was "Only the best teachers pass L4"
Putting it another way: If you are not able to demonstrate teaching to a world class level, you will not be allowed to pass BASI L4.
I wish everyone who is training to pass L4 / ET the very best of luck in this!
I am curious to know what the real demand is for being able to be able to '...demonstrate teaching to a world class level...' - other than being able to teach in France unhindered.
Can any comparison be drawn between L3 / L4 and teachers in schools with say a degree level qualification vs PhD?
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FAQ
