 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm a bit late coming into this conversation, but I'll throw my tuppence into the fray:
I was fortunate to learn a little French and German in school. Not much, but enough to get by in each country. If someone asked me whether I could speak either, I'd probably say no - I will use them in the respective countries (out of politeness) but it's usually easier for everyone if we converse in English.
I also spent a fair bit of time in Italy, so have picked up a little Italian. Again, I wouldn't say I could speak Italian, but I can order food & drink / translate most of a menu and ask for directions etc. It helps to lessen the chances of getting ripped off by the taxi drivers from the airport as well.
To a lot of English people (particularly the older generation) I speak three languages as well as English. To a foreigner, I only really speak English. It's a difference of perception and what constitutes "speaking" a foreign language. To the likes of PG, my ability in foreign languages would be pathetic (I'm happy to admit), whereas to someone who doesn't speak any French, they might well consider me to be bilingual! When I go into a French shop, I will always speak French. If the shopowner doesn't speak any English, they will obviously reply in French, and typically get on pretty well - (s)he's happy that I speak French and even if I mess up their language, at least I've tried - plus we can sort of communicate. If the shop assistant speaks excellent English, then he or she will often reply in English - this saves us both a lot of effort and I don't really see it as being rude. Again, the person will probably appreciate the fact I've tried (and failed) to use their language.
On a related topic, I will always speak French when in France, even though I have a pretty bad grasp of the language, since it's very definitely appreciated. When in Italy I do likewise - relative few Brits speak Italian (even badly) so again, I think it's appreciated (plus the language sounds lovely). However, when I'm in Germany, I vary rarely - if ever - speak German. I might use "sprechen Sie Englisch" and that's probably it - other than please and thankyou. It's not because my German is worse than my Italian, but simply because it's been my experience that the reaction to using German in Germany isn't any different than using English. Germans don't seem to be impressed/pleased if you try to use their language - they're quite happy to use their (generally) excellent English.
In summary, and in my experience, I would say that the difference in attitude of French people if you speak their own language (even badly) is more than sufficient to try it. In Italy, it perhaps depends where you are - in Rome they probably couldn't care less, but further North it certainly seems to be appreciated. In Germany, it hardly seems to be worth the effort (especially since I'm usually accompanied by a bilingual friend). Any comments?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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HAving spent much of the time reading Football messageboards, all I can say is that if the French are worse at french than the English are at English, then the Acadamie Francais might as well sell their HQ and buy a bar in the Bahamas. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sugardaddy, I think you've slightly missed the point: it's not a question of whether English is the most spoken 2nd language - it clearly is. It's a question of common courtesy. Yes, you could and should (in my opinion) learn the most basic words and phrases for every country you go to.
Pete Horn, if you try to speak French the French will also try to speak your language back to you - it's considered polite in France. By the way in the 3 valleys I once went into a bank where they were so English they didn't understand French! Good reason why I don't live there. 
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masopa, You should never be ashamed of your poor French (if it really is). Keep trying and you'll keep being appreciated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have a nephew and niece in Holland, althought their mother is Dutch and their Father English, they have not bothered to teach the kids much English as 'they will learn it at school and they will get confused'. Unfortunately, none of us speak any Dutch as it has never been necessary as they are all good English speakers. It seems a shame we can't talk to them until they go to school.
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When my nephew and niece were growing up (well, they're still little), my sister talked to them in English and Italian and my brother-in-law in Italian. It got to the point where they could understand English, but replied in Italian. My Italian is limited to the sort of conversations you're unlikely to have with a three year-old, so conversations got very confusing. Their English is good enough to chat a bit now, though younger one (my niece, oddly enough) doesn't like using English.
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masopa,
| Quote: |
| To the likes of PG, my ability in foreign languages would be pathetic |
You should see me struggling in Glasgow  ... seriously though folks, any ability is good, it's only attitude that can be bad. And skanky, I wish I could speak Italian as well as a three year-old! Sometimes a little knowledge is a bad thing... after a student summer there years ago selling (apparently phantom) encyclopaedias, I can still remember the lengthy spiel word for word, but not much more. Recently got into big trouble in La Thuile - the few stock phrases I came out with sounded good so the proprietor chatted away in Italian the whole time I was there. Most of it was over my head, so as there was no menu I still haven't a clue what I ate! (there was a very tiny bird's head sticking out of the sauce, so I'd hazard a guess at a blue tit... do Italians eat blue tits?
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easyski, it seems to me that in most countries people do not take offence if you speak to them in english, while most frenchmen do. Most people are glad that hey can communicate with a foreigner, and sometimes are proud that they can speak a foreign language. You had to explain to your Danish clients how the French think, clearly it is not clear to everyone that you should be offended if tourists fail to learn your language. As courtesy goes, yes, it seems nice to try to learn a few words in the local language as well as part of the travelling experience, but if you fail to do so, you should not be regarded as the scum of the earth. Besides, after you travel enough, it becomes rather hard if you are not a very gifted linguist. By now, i should know a few words in : Italian, Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Polish, Portugese, Chech, Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Hindi, Thai, Vietnamese Greek, Turkish - i actually know a few words in most, but not in all. Great luck some languages are spoken in more than one country.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| in most countries people do not take offence if you speak to them in english, while most frenchmen do. |
That is so far removed from reality that this constant daft stereotyping is actually beginning to get rather annoying! The French do not 'take offence', except in very rare circumstances, and perhaps even then with some justification. Talking to taxi drivers and receptionists on business trips plus the occasional holiday will not give you very much of an insight into the French people, believe me.
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Friends of ours live in Vienna. They have a daughter, Mum is German, Dad is English. Last time we met daughter was about 3 years old. She speaks German, most of the time... except when she wants a favour off Dad, then she switches to English. Clever kid.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Pg, I'm not sure, what a blue tit is, but yes, in Italy small birds are still cooked and eaten (as a prelibacy, I might add).
Usually quails, but also other types too.
I don't eat litlle birds, so I can't be of more help here.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Matteo a blue tit is someone who knocks you with their skis then swears at you for getting in their way.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skanky wrote: |
| Matteo a blue tit is someone who knocks you with their skis then swears at you for getting in their way. |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| easiski wrote: |
| if you try to speak French the French will also try to speak your language back to you - it's considered polite in France. |
And am I the only one to be annoyed by this?! I consider myself to be a francophile, have lived in France and used to speak French fairly fluently. However I find it impolite to initiate a conversation in French, only for the other party to reply in English (which often turns out to be inferior to my French). It has always struck me as being very disrespectful of my attempts to speak their language. Nobody agree?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dave Burt, I sort of agree with you, but I don't even get to open my mouth before they decide I'm anglophone...must be the deerstalker and plus fours
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think it sort of depends on the circumstances, too difficult to generalise really. If you're clearly struggling in the language concerned, and the person opposite you is very fluent then, gently, the conversation can be steered into English. That said I've been with plenty of Brits whose command of French is not too hot, where the French person concerned has carried on speaking in French out of respect for the effort made, even if he/she speaks good English.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I once impressed some French visitors in Southampton who'd got lost. They were looking for their hotel and had stopped about 100 metres before it at a garage where I was buying petrol. They didn't speak English and the till assistant didn't speak French but I overheard their question.
All I said was, "tournez a la premier rue a la gauche, et gauche encore, et voila!" (which is probably a grammatical pig's ear) but you'd think I'd just sung the Marseillaise for them 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skanky wrote: |
| Matteo a blue tit is someone who knocks you with their skis then swears at you for getting in their way. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Snowy Bear wrote: |
I once impressed some French visitors in Southampton who'd got lost. They were looking for their hotel and had stopped about 100 metres before it at a garage where I was buying petrol. They didn't speak English and the till assistant didn't speak French but I overheard their question.
All I said was, "tournez a la premier rue a la gauche, et gauche encore, et voila!" (which is probably a grammatical pig's ear) but you'd think I'd just sung the Marseillaise for them |
Did a similar thing for a German woman in a bar at Denver airport a few weeks back - needed to translate between her and the waiter. Surprised myself.
Matteo - thanks for the recognition, but twice?
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ooppss, I don't know how it happened, probably I had switched to "two right hands and ten thumbs" mode (for those who wonder about "two right hands..." I'm left handed)...
Or I was trying a new way to increase my post count...
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Well, I'm not complaining
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| Dave Burt wrote: |
| easiski wrote: |
| if you try to speak French the French will also try to speak your language back to you - it's considered polite in France. |
And am I the only one to be annoyed by this?! ? |
I agree that it is annoying, but I believe the person is only trying to be polite by trying to speak your language. You can continue in French and they will then revert to French you will find.
Regarding the question, the French are better at English than the English are at French. At a basic level spoken English is easier to learn than French. There is also a big pressure to speak English in France, especially in any medium to large firm where English is a requirement for most jobs. In Paris you won't even get a job selling cigarettes or working in the metro unless you speak and are prepared to use some English. Obviously in the provinces there are fewer English speakers.
Just to echo a point PG made above, I do find the (albeit rare) anti-French sentiment on this forum annoying. It is no excuse that some French people are just as bad, we should try and rise above cultural stereotyping. We are close neighbours and really have a very strong mutual interest to work together and have good friendly relations. If you'd been in France when the Queen visited recently you would have seen that many French people are extremely anglophile and enthusiastic for British culture and Britain.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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sugardaddy, I have in my time travelled pretty extensively. I made sure I learnt pretty quick how to say at least Hello and Thank you in the country's language. Gets you a long way quite easily 
M. Coins believes I speak French fluently as he can just about order a Croque Monsieur and that's it. I can't at all ('A' Levels more than 20 years ago!), but I do make an effort when in France and 'improvise' where needbe.
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I'm ashamed of mine too, Pete. I bought a French language course but get so frustrated that I give up after a couple of weeks. The bottom line is... I just have no aptitude for languages. 
Having said that, I do use the few French words I know, and am always surprised when other Brits don't bother. (Surely most people know the French for please, thankyou etc?)
Still on topic - though not skiing related - I was in Lourdes a few years ago and at the appointed time I took my sister's wheelchair back to the hospital from where it'd been borrowed. The woman taking receipt of the wheelchairs looked like what I think of as a hospital matron - quite large and rather stern.
Anyway, there were a couple of French people in the queue in front of me who exchanged a few words with her, and as they left they bade her a cheery "Au voir". She responded in the same way.
I picked up on that, and thought it must be the same as us shortening 'goodbye' to 'bye'. So I handed the wheelchair over with a "merci", and then copied the people in front and said "Au voir" with a smile. I was utterly taken aback when she leaned forward, stuck her face right up to mine, fixed me with a ferocious glare and hissed "Au REvoir!"
How rude!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Indeed... and how peculiar too. Perhaps it was an example of an odd sense of humour! For I must have said it, as the French themselves do, in its abbreviated form, say fifteen times a day every day over 15 years (not counting telephone calls). And heard it said by French people at least as many times. That's a conservative 150,000 "au 'voirs", and never a complaint!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Cathy Coins, i did not dispute the usefulness of learning a few words in the local language. My question is how should you be treated if you use a language that widely used for international comunication (like english)? And is there any difference whether english is your native tongue or not ?
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Last week I had a meeting at Heathrow with two Italian clients who had flown over from Milan, neither of whom spoke a word of English so they brought a translator with them.
All quite reasonable.
The translator turned out to be a gorgeous young Russian woman who had many attributes not necessary for a translator.
She also lacked many attributes very necessary for a translator.
She spoke perfect Russian, a little Italian and a smattering of English.
She spent most of the meeting speaking English to the Italians and Italian to me.
Well I managed to get myself understood and our business was concluded successfully.
One assumes Any Other Business went just as well!
Wasn’t sure if she was brought along for my benefit or not, but I didn’t wait around to find out.
Suffice to say the very little Italian I knew plus the international language we can all ‘speak’ got me out of trouble.
I just love the Italians.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You should try it round here; people switch languages between German, French and English to see what gets the best reaction. Since I answer alternately in all three and look confused in all three they just keep doing it
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Poster: A snowHead
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ise, That's Switzerland for you - I take it you're not near the Italian speaking part!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I live in a bilingual canton a few km from the French speaking Vaud and the same from the predominantly German speaking canton of Vaud. There’s no Italian or Romansch in these parts and I don’t really get over that way.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You watched?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ise wrote: |
You should try it round here; people switch languages between German, French and English to see what gets the best reaction. Since I answer alternately in all three and look confused in all three they just keep doing it
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Glad to know even the long term residents have the same problem as me!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Alan Craggs wrote: |
| You watched? |
Well, there I was, just in the queue for the bar and some bloke standing at the bbq next to it started slipping it in.
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Well skanky, what would a Ski Club of Great Britain member do under those circumstances?
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I did french to A-level at school and then went to live in Versailles for a year and I can safely say it makes no huge difference if you think youre fluent before you go because when you get there and open your mouth, they'll just look at you funny anyway. After arriving on the first day and being mouthed off at by the bus driver ( glad to see bus drivers are as friendly all over the world as they are in Glasgow) I was too scared to get on the bus for 2 weeks! But living in Versailles was very very different to being in Paris, far fewer english speakers, so I picked up the slang, developed a local accent etc and came back being able to swear back at bus drivers as good as the rest of them
English scools are crap at teaching languages, last time our french teacher had been to France was in 1979
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 21-04-04 22:03; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have no idea! I bought two two bottles of kirsch and strapped two planks to my feet and returned to throwing myself down an Alp in a semi-controlled manner.
Not being a NotW reporter, I didn't even have to make my excuses to leave.
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Ian Hopkinson, It’s hysterical really. You never know what language someone’s going to speak if you book someone for some work and if you go somewhere there’s a little dance you go through to work out what language is going to work best. In some of the shops they’ll switch language back and forth a few times.
Some of it just makes you ashamed of your poor language skills, I was at the local equivalent of the MOT test centre the other day and the guy I was speaking to was fluent in French, English and German. In fact he could speak the local Swiss-German and a more Hoch Deutsch for my benefit and was happily explaining how he took the family to the Lake District each year as his wife was a Beatrix Potter fan.
The office is funnier still, we’ve quite a few people who speak 4 or 5 languages and some that manage as many as 12, amazing 
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