 Poster: A snowHead
|
Moderators Note
This discussion started off in the "Chairlift accidents waiting to happen?" thread but it was so far off topic (and interesting in its own right) that I thought it would be better in a thread of its own. Therefore I took the liberty of splitting the original topic.
Hope no one minds, I can't undo the split!
It should really be in "Other Stuff" as well but it can stay here for now.
Pete Horn
Back to DavidS ...
--------------------------------------------------------
| saikee wrote: |
| May be they have little regard of the English language and seldom bother to learn it so it is a dead end street for them. |
Look, I know the French are crap at languages (as are the Italians and the Spanish) - but I don't think the Brits have much to boast about either!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
very valid point David S, i dont see that many Brits queuing up to learn French either!
The old stereotypes kicking in i reckon.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Think there is a difference here. When one visit a foreign country one trys to learn a few foreign words to get by or survive. French is the major foreign language taught in British schools. Despite the historical differences of the two countries I have a feeling that there are more British learning French than the French learing English.
I thought some UK skiers would welcome the chance to practise their French when going regularly to France. French is no different from skiing. No practise no improvement.
When one doesn't holiday abroard much and works on the slope then there may be little incentive to learn the languages of the clients. Many French people would ignore me if I try English on them but they become helpful if I try a few words of French.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
| French is the major foreign language taught in British schools. Despite the historical differences of the two countries I have a feeling that there are more British learning French than the French learing English. |
I would wager a considerable amount of money on the average French school leaver's command of English being considerably superior to that of his British equivalent! The Anglos have a worldwide reputation for believing that in order to make themselves understood abroad they just have to shout louder 
Bear in mind that unlike in the UK where one can select 3 or 4 subjects for 'A' level, with no obligation to study a foreign language, in the French baccalaureat equivalent even if you pick the science option, there is a compulsory 'A' level standard foreign language element to the examination, and the principal foreign language the French learn is of course English.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
PG,
One learns new things everyday.
So it is madatory in French education system that all equivalent A-level student must have a foreign language pass before he or she is allowed into the higher education.
I think at the time my kids did theirs the foreign language was enforced up to only the O level, as both of them passed the French. Only the daughter took it up to the A level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
An interesting diversion off-thread.
| Quote: |
French is the major foreign language taught in British schools
|
and my school teacher also taught my mother !!!! She was pretty hot on grammer etc but I doubt if she'd ever been over La Manche. Colloquial French ? Pronunciation ? What would she know ??? One of the 'Old School'. Formidable. Language Labs appeared just after I moved on.... (showing my age now). But I do try to speak French when on my skiing hols. I can do a bit more in Franglais than my 'Hello - how's your Mother's foot ?' in Arabic. And in the resorts I reckon even simple greetings, thank yous, etc..., are appreciated and you certainly get friendlier (and maybe better) service as a result. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
kuwait_ian, I'd certainly agree that a simple Bonjour etc and you instantly get friendly service. I used to think that the French were rude but I've recently worked out that they're only rude if you're rude to them. It's expected that you give a cheery Bonjour when you go into a shop. If people can't even learn to say hello in French they deserve to be treated rudely!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Chris Reed, ditto in the likes of a doctor's waiting room, or for example when sitting down at a restaurant with people at a neighbouring table .... If both men and women present you would say; "Bonjour (or Bonsoir) m'sieurs dames".
Also when you have finished your meal the same applies, a polite "Au revoir", or perhaps if the diners have just arrived (or are in the middle of a course when you sit down), a "Bon appétit" would not go amiss.....
The French find our very British 'personal space' thing rather difficult to comprehend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Mark Hunter wrote: |
I'd go one further - I suspect many French children leave school with a better command of English than many English do  |
On the contrary, the evidence suggests that British students leave school with a better grasp of English than French students have of French.
In these rankings (the only international ones available for school leaving age - taken here as 15; i.e. approximating the end of compulsory schooling), French mean performance in reading/writing is significantly lower than British performance. The Brits come 7th our of 30 odd countries; the French 15th.
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/knowledge/home/intro.htm
On language learning, I once had a job that took me to many hundreds of schools across most of the EU countries, where I worked with students in English.
There is an extraordinary variation in achievement. Top performers: Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Flemish-speaking Belgium.
The middle rank: Germany, Portugal.
Bottom of the class: France, Italy, Spain, French-speaking Belgium.
I'm talking about spoken language here. I came across plenty of Italian students, for example, who were studying Keats in English, but would have struggled to order themselves a meal in London!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
There is the other thing to take into account that in a lot of countries (or areas within those countries), English is the third or fourth language. This is especially so in multiple language countries (Belgium, Switzerland and some border areas).
For example in Valle D'Aosta French is the language taught in schools. I'm fairly sure that when I went on an exchange trip to Saarbruecken, the kids there were learning French before English and yet they knew the grammar rules of English better than we did (better than I still do - I couldn't tell you what a past participle is, which is what messed up my languages at school as that's how they taught us).
That's starting to change now, I think, with the influence of the septics and English becoming the international language of business.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Lies, damn lies, and statistics..... the following qualifications and reservations from PISA's own site about the validity of the testing procedure, that DavidS omitted to mention!!. .....
(ref. the Anglo-Saxon bias of the testing procedure involved – excerpts, translated from the French original)
| Quote: |
“French schoolchildren are, as a consequence of this bias, confronted by domains that they are relatively unfamiliar with at pre-sixth form level, concentrating on certain areas from the 6th form onwards.
Limits of international studies in scholastic ability comparisons:
The PISA study, as with the majority of international studies, reveals difficulties when comparing in real terms the results of children from different countries. This type of study is likely to be invalidated by cultural bias, translation, or even as a consequence of fundamental differences between the educational systems under evaluation.
Taking these different points into account, the original concept of the PISA study appears to be relatively far removed from the French educational system.”
|
Interestingly your list of 'poor achievers' would seem to confirm this conclusion. And in response to your comments on the abilities of those from Anglo-Saxon/Scandinavian countries in learning English, perhaps you could redress the balance by confirming the standards of achievement in terms of the Latin nations' levels of ability in each other's tongues, compared to those of the northern Europeans in French/Italian/Spanish etc?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Further comments from the PISA site!:
| Quote: |
The PISA study, as with the majority of previous international studies, is partially invalidated by differences in educational emphasis, diversity of curricula and orientation.
Indeed it is a standardised test, translated from English into all other languages, and which is supposed to be suitable for all participating nations. Its validity is therefore inherently flawed by its pretence of universality.
In order to escape from these difficulties the European Union, within the framework of the Socrates programme, has experimented with an alternative methodology which consists of testing all pupils via exercises conceived in the country of origin and written, as a result, in their native tongue. Bias in terms of measuring competence is therefore avoided. Initial experiments in 1999 revealed the benefits of this approach, but require further development in order to construct reliable indicators. However this methodology makes it difficult to draw up a single scale with which to create a league table of nations, and as a result it does not have the same media impact as the OCDE pilot study.
|
The moral of the story being... read the small print, don't trust anything you read in the newspapers (this report was the only one that was reported because as PISA themselves say, the alternative "does not have the same media impact").... and above all, statistics can say anything you want them to say.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Not only in France, saikee and PG. Twenty years ago, when I underwent the Italian equivalent of the French "Baccalaureat", one of the two written subjects was technical (the other was Italian) and had to be in English.
skanky French was the language to be taught at school during the "scuola media" cycle. Now some schools will lteach French, some English and some German. Latin had to be learnt too (and this, in my opinino was giving good basis
to learn German).
In Valle d'Aosta French is taught as an L1 language, Valle d'Aosa is a bilingual region (French-Italian), as Alto Adige is (German,Italian), even thought I'd better say Alto Adige is a three languages region (German, Italian and Ladino, a language similar to the one spoken in the Swiss Graubunden lands)...
Saarbuecken is also "sort" of bilingual...being Germany but bordering to France (and on the other side, Alsace is bilingual as well)...
Anyhow, the debate whether we should try to learn the language of the places where we intend to spend our holyday or the people there should learn outr language is old and, in my opinion requires flexibility.
Last november I had to attempt to chat to my chairlif companion in all known -to me- languages, before he politely informed me that he could speak Italian (he was a Brit living in Italy)..I was ashamed.
Still I don't want to oblige anone to speak Italian, but I expect a bit of politeness from tourists, andin turn I strive to be as polite as possible, whether I'm being a tourist or a local.
Should instructors ask? Yes, definitely, and as said by PG, whenever an instructor saw that I already had two children with me, never asked me to take one of theirs, so we were never separated by school classes...
OTOH I often have to offer my "services", here instructors seem to have an "I can do it all alone, I'm superhuman" or have experiencied too many rejections, but (since) whenever I offered my "help" the offer was always promptly and gladly taken.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
My son had a French exchange student ataying last year. By the time he leaves school, he is expected to be fluent in English, as they will go on to study University subjects where they will be taught in English, even if they study in France.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Matteo - Yeah, the fact that those regions are bilingual was my point. Anyone there learning English would be doing it as their third language. I've just had my nephew and niece visit from Courmayeur and one has recently started school (in his first year, I think) and the other is still pre-school. They are both learning French, and only know English because my sister speaks to them in English. Later in their school lives they'll start learning English.
My brother in law grew up in Chamonix for his first 7 years then moved to Courmayeur and never learnt English.
I believe there used to be a language spoken that was before Italian or French in Valle d'Aosta (or the Courmayeur end, at least), but it has pretty much died out. My sister called this "patois" which I thought was just the same as saying "dialect",...? Do you this one?
About learning other languages, I've worked in Geneva, Milan, Luxembourg and Zurich (for anything from a month to two years on and off). People in each have asked why I don't learn whichever language is spoken there - my question would be, which one should I learn? Instead I learn small amounts of each, which is useful but can be confusing as it's difficult to move from one to the other...many's the time I've mixed them up mid-sentence.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Yes, the "Valdostani" call their Language "Patois", but that is just the french for
"dialect", we, other Italians refer to it as "Valdostano". The difference between a dialect and a language are obvious, a dialect has not written grammatical rules, it's only spoken and not written, or so they told us at school. In every region there is a dialect. Most of us had to forget it when Italy was formed as a political entity. Italians as such did not exists before 1860.
One of the ways to form the nation was to adopt one set of rules and one common language. As it is, Italian language is nothing else than an higlhy revised form of the dialect spoken in Florence. Still, people speak dialect at home, and with other local. My vilage dialect differs from the dialct spoken in the neighboroing one.
But, all do have a common background. Latin. upon which the new languages inserted themselves. As it is, the Patios spoken in valle d'aosta is very close to the French language. As we progress eastward the German influence weights in, and to the far east of Italy Slavic words and names are present.
Just a few examples, in my dialect fire is "foeuch" (a bastardization of the french "feu" and of the Italian "fuoco" ) but at the same time, the word for skirt is "Scussaa" which derives from the German "Schurze" , I let you guess, I live in Lombardy, midway from Northern Italy eastern and western borders...But well, my dialect is nearly dead, very few still speak it fluently, and I'm not one of them.
Piedmont dialect influenced by French, and there isa small area in Piedmont where people speak the "Occitan"or Langue d'Oc, like the "Patois" spoken in Languedoc Rousillion in France.
Having studied French at school, i can understand the "Valdostano", but barely.
Having learnt German, I can understand people in Alto Adige to someextent, their German is very far from the "HochDeutsch", in fact it's a dialect in itself, but of the German language , not of the Italian. But let's be clear, dialects are not a derivation of a language, usually are languages in their own rights.
In some lost areas in Calabria, people speak a dialect which derives from the ancient Greek, so I am told. It is possible, Southern Italy was also know as "Magna Grecia", since some 2500 years ago it had been colonized by the Greeks.
I'm sure that if you look at the UK,the same thing would apply, just look at the four main nationalities there (Eire is not part of the UK since before WWII, but Ulster is) each had its own language, which, for the Kingdom's sake had to be forgotten (for a while, nowadays, local autonomies are back with a vengeance)
Oopps, I've hijacked another thread. Sorry!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Thanks for that, that's interesting (and it's nice to know the bits that I thought I knew were indeed correct). I did read that it's similar in Ticino as well, and Swiss Deutsch again, is merely a noun for a collection of different dialects (originally, there's been an "evening out" over the years). I'm sure ise can comment more accurately on that.
You're right about the UK as well, it's even true of England on its own, except the unification was much sooner.
Sorry, I encouraged you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
My dialect is similar to the one spoken in Ticino (but Ticinese is closer to the "Laghee" dialect, the dialect spoken on the shores of lake Como, my dialect is called "Brianzolo", from the Celtic word "brigg" (hill, mountain, if my sources are correct, in fact im my dialect, the word for hill is "bric"), where people do speak Italian as well. With them being Lombards, it couldn't be different. Notice I use Lombards and not Italians because Ticino was never part of Italy, it was a part of the Duchy of Milan, and was given in payment-or as a gift- to the Swiss by the Emperor Charles the 5th, in exchange of their mercenary armies services at the Rome siege and following sacking.
Recently, with the renaissance of "local languages" (a more PC term for "dialects")
some have started to sing in "laghee", and have had a moderate success...
See as an example www.cauboi.it (cauboi =cowboy ehe)
Paradoxally (and here I'm trying to somehow salvage the hijacking) with the renaissance of "local laguages" the need for a common language across nations has been reinforced. What it wil be? English? French? German? Chinese? Russian?
I think that Englisjh is the common language of this era, as Latin was 2000 years ago and as French was during the 1700-1800...
But herewe have a problem: there is an English italian Dictionary, but not and English-Dialect dictionary. So, in order to learn English, people will be foreced to learn at least one other language (or to learn English at the same time).
PErsonally I try to avoid automatic translators and English-Italian-English dictionaries. If I want to know the meaning of a word I go to the English dictionary and read its entry...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Yup. There were plenty of battles between the Milanese and Swiss in Ticino before it became Swiss. I thoroughly recommend a visit to Bellinzona(sp?) to anyone. If you're there, stop off at Giornico and have a meal at the "Grotti dei duo Ponti" (sp?). Absolutely superb.
The Ticino region has variations of that dialect that vary from valley to valley (a bit like Swiss German - which incidentally, to back what you say has only had a dictionary recently. I remember reading about a play written in Swiss german which failed as only actors from the region of the playwright could perform in it and people from other parts of Switzerland had trouble understanding it).
Of course, people could all learn Esperanto?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Oh no, not a fifth language, I'm not young anymore!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
PG, i'll take you on. I suspect that the remarks you quoted were written to keep low scoring countries happy. There always are problems when administering standartised tests, and the standartised test are vulnerable to the claim that they favour some fraction of the population (such as american SATs). Of course, testing students exactly on what was taught in class the day before will result in higher marks and the teachers will be satisfied but that is moving the goal posts to better suit every country. If we test for specific skills and knowledge, then standartised tests are the way to go. If the tests are used as a selection tool, then they are limiting the opportunities of people from certain backgrounds, but one must wonder why they concern an exploratory test .
What i mean is : different countries teach different things. If someone thinks that Latin is more important than science, then by all means test for latin proficiency, but if science is more important you can't say that the test is biased because it tests science knowledge. I can see biases if you test french students on german geography or on italian poetry (for example), but i doubt this is the case.
As for the claim that translating test puts the non-english speaking at a disatvantage, i think it is pathetic. There are procedures to assure exact translation. One of them is having the text translated and then translated back by another person and comparing the last translation to the original. It also implies that translation seriously alters the text, so anyone who reads a Harry Potter translation is reading a different book than the original?! Any brit who didn't read Hugo in the original has no idea what the original was all about?
Going back to the original dispute, in most countries(lets say Spain, Austria, Italy to name the ones relevant to our sport) when tourists speak english (whether they are brits or this is the only foreign languge they know) the locals try bridge the gap and are very nice (usually) but i think that the french are different. They may know how to speak english, but they refuse to do so, and are rude to anyone not speaking french.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have to disagree with you, it depends on location, in the bigger resorts you will get more off-handed treatment it's inevitable, but in smaller resorts people really will try to speak English or Dutch, German, Danish etc. I do not subscribe to this idea that the French are any worse than any other nation having to deal with hordes of tourists who expect that everyone thay meet will speak English. I'm often ashamed of the sheer bad manners and rudeness of some of the English I meet in France and Italy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I've skied loads of times in France, and love the place, but I have to admit that the locals are DEFINITELY more prickly with tourists who don't speak French, than are other Alpine nationalities. I always try to speak French, and it is always replied helpfully, but almost never in English, even if your own French is pretty poor.
The difference with Austria and the German speaking parts of Switzerland is that even if you go into a conversation in your best German, they will virtually always answer you with English, because they are so proud of their ability to speak it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David, then you should try to get along in France without the use of french, and to do without the local language in Austria or Andorra or Italy. Then compare your experiences. Sometimes it is hard for people who do not speak French to understand how rude the french are towards those who do not speak their language. I speak some french, so i always enjoyed France, but when i was in Paris with some coworkers who do not speak french at all, i was amazed to see how badly they were treated, and how the attitude changed for the better as soon as afew words in french were spoken by me. I think the french are offended by the fact that there are people who do not speak french, and speaking english only makes matters worse.
Yes, some brits are rude, but i was not compairing brits to the french, i was compairing the french to the people of other alpine countries.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
sugardaddy, I thought the PISA comments were self-explanatory, but if you really insist!....
Standardised tests are inherently flawed for the reasons touched on above. You admit as much yourself. PISA pointed this out in their study, and detailed how a culturally-biased English-language test based on a curriculum framework from within one or a limited number of the countries involved in the study would inevitably distort the results to an extent.
This isn't to say that an acceptable, practical alternative exists - simply that any conclusions drawn from the results of a standardised study should be viewed with a degree of circumspection.
| Quote: |
| As for the claim that translating test puts the non-english speaking at a disatvantage, i think it is pathetic |
Subjective maybe, but as a qualified linguist myself, I can assure you that it is virtually impossible for translation not to influence comprehension. It's not a matter of understanding or not understanding - it's more subtle than that. You may not just be translating words, but alien concepts from a different culture. Some things do not really translate at all. Others will remain mysterious even to a bilingual person simply through lack of exposure to the culture concerned.
| Quote: |
| but i think that the french are different. They may know how to speak english, but they refuse to do so, and are rude to anyone not speaking french. |
If you can pigeon-hole an entire nation based on limited contact with or understanding of the people and culture involved, then I really don't think there's much point in our discussing this any further - it will go nowhere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
If you can pigeon-hole an entire nation based on limited contact with or understanding of the people and culture involved, then I really don't think there's much point in our discussing this any further - it will go nowhere.
|
OK it's not the entire nation, it's the part involved with the tourist industry. I have been to France over 20 times, totaling over 50 weeks. I have inteeracted with hundreds of french receptionists, waiters, cab drivers and so on.Also i met with with university students, engineers and researchers. As a tourist i have always travelled independently. In addition, i participated in a students exchange, a week-long sports tournament (represented my university)and i have been in three work-related trips. In the work related trips, the people were nicer (usually the the more educated the nicer - i know it sounds snobbish), but still...Maybe it's my ugly mug, but then again, i have been treated differently (better) in other countries
| Quote: |
Subjective maybe, but as a qualified linguist myself, I can assure you that it is virtually impossible for translation not to influence comprehension.
|
Oh, then maybe english people do not truly understand the works of Einstein or Descartes, as they wrote in german and french? We are talking about a test not poetry a phylosophical dissertation
| Quote: |
This isn't to say that an acceptable, practical alternative exists - simply that any conclusions drawn from the results of a standardised study should be viewed with a degree of circumspection
|
but so should the results of any test, that is not to say that the results are without merit and should be dismissed! While i agree that the original conclusion drawn by Davids is too extreme, it seems to me that some countries should take a hard look at what's going on in their school system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oh, and if the translation is so detrimental, then how come that in the reading literacy ratings Finland, Korea and Japan did better than the english speaking countries?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
sugardaddy, With children currently going through or having completed their education in both systems, British and French, and having lived and worked in different parts of France for 15 years or so, my experience is that the French educational system, generally speaking, is of a high standard and I am more than satisfied with my children's progress. The fact is that the French-style baccalaureat may well be introduced in the UK in the not too distant future, as the system back home is considered by many to be too specialised as it stands. Is this positive aspect of the French methodology reflected in the test findings, I wonder?
On the subject of translation, subtleties in interpretation exist and they do influence comprehension. Ask any qualified, professional translator/interpreter (me for example. )
| Quote: |
but so should the results of any test, that is not to say that the results are without merit and should be dismissed! While i agree that the original conclusion drawn by Davids is too extreme, it seems to me that some countries should take a hard look at what's going on in their school system.
|
It's an excellent system - I have first-hand experience of it. Do you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
sugardaddy, Just as translation can distort understanding in a subtle way, so can misrepresentation of people's comments in debate.
| Quote: |
| Oh, and if the translation is so detrimental |
.... your words, not mine.
As for the fact that the British are not at the very top of the league table, there are obvious reasons why certain countries may perform better in some elements of the test process.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I have no experience with either system, but i was not bashing one while praising the other! I simply reacted to your quotes about the standartised tests.
By the way, one major problem with these tests is that they often contradict "first hand experience", but psychological research has shown that people are not very reliable! In fact, most eye witness testimony is completely unreliable. Furthermore I suspect that your experience with both systems is limited to 2-3 children and no more than 4-5 schools. Not a very good sample.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I quoted the institution that itself set up and then qualified the value of the tests. They were not my views. Your very first words were:
| Quote: |
| I suspect that the remarks you quoted were written to keep low scoring countries happy. |
.... well with with all due respect - on what basis?
| Quote: |
| Furthermore I suspect that your experience with both systems is limited to 2-3 children and no more than 4-5 schools. Not a very good sample. |
Well you suspect wrong. In my early post-graduate years I taught English in French public and private schools, and I have recently been a delegate on three parent-teacher committees, including at my youngest daughter's current secondary school. Five kids, four of whom have attended somewhere in the region of fifteen (post-primary) establishments between them, one still at primary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
PG, sorry i didn't respond yesterday, some friend came over and i had to log off.
You are really good at winning debates aren't you? Some debating team in your past?
But to return to our (way off) topic. You have completely missed my point. My post deals only with test methodology. Once again, it never was my intention to claim that the French system is a bad one, but that at the present time, according to a test that looks well constructed, it seems that there are ones who do better in certain areas. You can say that from your experience the French have a fantastic racing program, but the independent standartised tests (WC races) seem to point that the Austrian program is better. But adding that the races were held only on some slopes on certain days, in certain conditions, etc, etc, should seem to reduce the validity of these findings.
| Quote: |
.... well with with all due respect - on what basis?
|
1- i have first hand knowledge on how these tests are buit. I am an Industrial engineer, worked for a consulting firm, and right now i am back in graduate school. My research is mainly psychological, so i have been closely involved with the psychological dept. and have very good knowledge on this kind of tests (as well as others)
The limitations you quoted are well known and the researchers are aware of them when they design the test. There are many excellent procedures (that have been rigorously tested) used to minimize these limitations. I have mentioned one before, there are others that allow for discounting questions that consistently lower the results of one sample.
2- i have practical (my own experience) and theoretical (from scientific research) knowledge on how bureaucratic comities insist that the researcher lists every possible threat to the test validity, and if the results do not match their expectations they disregard the part where the researcher describes the measures taken to minimize the threats and, like yourself, shout "liars" and proceed to do nothing or the opposite of your suggestions, only they now broadcast that their decision was taken while consulting with scientists.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Oh, and if the translation is so detrimental
.... your words, not mine.
|
well, talk about twisting my words! My point was about non-english speaking countries doing better than english speaking ones, in order to illustrate that the limitations quoted by you have been dealt with by means of test design. If the French didn't do as well as the Canadians because the test was translated, then why did the Finns do better then the both of them? And it's not only one country!
Is twisting my words your way to fight a loosing battle?
You compare the british curriculum you remember from your experiences (20 years ago?) to the current French one. Maybe the british system has changed enough, maybe you have forgotten enough, maybe the impressions of a student are different from the impressions of a parent or a teacher just enough to explain why your subjective impressions differ from the results of an impartial test?
And again, maybe there are other reasons why the results have no validity, but the ones you quoted (they are too well known, and are excellent ways to combat them), and your personal subjective impressions are not enough. Not at a scientific level, at least.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Look, I bought up the whole PISA thing because of the typically-British assumption that our education system is dramatically worse than the French one. The evidence does not bear this out. If anything, it suggests the opposite is true.
The UK does better than France in literacy and numeracy, as measured by PISA (aged 15). England also does better than France in the numeracy tests administered by UNESCO (PIRLS - aged 10): http://timss.bc.edu/pirls2001i/pdf/P1_IR_Ch01.pdf
Clearly, as PG points out, there are problems establishing international comparability, but I think he's on shakey ground claiming with such certainty that these tests have an Anglo-Saxon bias.
A hugely complex operation is undertaken to ensure this is not so, involving double translation of materials from English and French, and expert committees in all participating countries... http://www.pisa.oecd.org/tech/chap5/h.htm
As the PISA technical report admits, all is not perfect. But it would be wrong to go away with the impression that these tests are thrown together on a whim whenever the Anglo-Saxons want to demonstrate their superiority.
As for language learning across countries, I can only appeal to my experience working in schools across Europe to assert that the differences are real and marked.
Try crossing from schools in Flanders to schools in Wallonia to see a real difference in attainment among students who learn English alongside French or Flemish.
This doesn't matter much to me - but it would if I was a Walloon (or French or Italian or Spanish) educator.
(The systems I do not have much experience of are the English/Welsh and Scottish ones - but I suspect, as I made clear in my original post, that foreign language teaching is as bad or worse over here as it is in Europe's worst performers.)
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 17-04-04 21:21; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
DavidS, I agree that this thread is close to outliving its usefulness! A couple of misunderstandings however, as we seem to have gone from discussing relative abilities in spoken French/English to a far more complex topic that we simply can't do justice to in a few limited exchanges between snowHeads.
On the Walloons, the fact is that French is an international language and Flemish is not. Hence the pronounced emphasis on learning English almost as a second mother tongue in the likes of Flanders, Holland and Scandinavia. As for the Japanese – well they’re a special case! This is changing to an extent in France with regular higher education lectures being given in English, particularly in the technical domain.
On translation, I proofread translated documents as part of the failsafe procedure for institutions such as PISA. I can assure you that it is virtually always possible to tell a translated text from an original one. Some of the subcontracted translation work; well you just wouldn’t believe who ends up doing it. It may start off in the hands of a reputable agency, but…..
This will affect reading comprehension results to a (limited) extent, but combined with a likely cultural bias in the original English language text, the cumulative effect could be quite significant.
To conclude, I have not suggested that educational standards in the UK are inferior to the French equivalent. That the British and Americans in particular are extremely reluctant to learn another language is another matter and the French, although by no means the most proficient at foreign languages in comparison to some, in my experience are better able to converse in English than has been suggested. Unlike the UK simple geography has always forced the French to take a more international approach to dealing with its neighbours….
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
This thread seems to have gone rather off-course! Several posts have mentioned that the French can be rude if you speak English to them. Would the English be better if a French person just started to speak French? I spend my UK time in Bath where there are many foreign visitors, and some shops and restaurants have signs up to say that French is spoken - it certainly isn't assumed, and Bath is a major tourist area.
However, I do feel that it's not difficult to learn to say "I'm sorry, I don't speak French" or "do you speak English"; hello, goodbye, please and thank you before going on your holiday. It's my experience that if you start like this rather than just assuming the person does speak English, you get a much better and friendlier service. The French, particularly consider this a great politeness.
I teach a lot of Danish people (who mostly speak excellent English), and they get seriously annoyed with the French people's lack of English. However when I explain how to approach the shopkeeper/restauanter etc. they find it completely different. Foreign people do not hear the difference in accent. It's easy for native English speakers to know that the person they're talking to is not a native speaker, however to a foreigner (French or whatever), this is not apparent.
With regard to Swiss-German dialects: when I was young I skied all the time in the Berner Oberland and had Bernese friends, so I picked up a little, but when I worked in the Valais (Wallis) about 8 years ago, I found that apart from the numbers there was very little in common. I tried to speak "Hoch Deutsch", but the local shopkeepers absolutely refused to speak it back. That was definitely rude and unfriendly!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I completely agree easiski, we would not expect a French person, or Danish, Dutch or any other nationality to speak to us in their own language in our country. Durham has many foreign tourists in the summer, language exchanges etc, I doubt any but a small handful of shop assistants can speak any French,German etc. We always attempt to make ourselves understood, last week in Serre Che, I had to explain where my boots hurt to a boot fitter. I asked (in French) if he spoke English, and he replied that my French was good, (it's not, but never mind). He then spent a good half hour with me , trying to adjust my boots, all for no charge. Perhaps if I had asked in English he would not have been so helpful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
easiski, Helen, i beleive you are not making the right comparison between english and french. English is todays "lingua franca", the way French was some time ago (and still is in some parts of Africa). Most people that speak a foreign language speak english, so it is easier for the british to serve tourists without learning a foreign language. You are priviledged.
| Quote: |
I teach a lot of Danish people (who mostly speak excellent English), and they get seriously annoyed with the French people's lack of English.
|
Exactly my point. If an Italian would travel to Denmark he would get along in english and would not be expected to learn Danish (?).Nowadays Spanish is more widely spoken than French, but the spanish would gladly speak english to a tourist. The French would not.
France is fantastic, i speak some french so i get along, but i would certainly enjoy it more if i could speak english (i am not from an english speaking country, but i guess you noticed that allready)
The argument "you should learn some basic sentences in the local language" is not so simple. If i am expected to do this in France, then i should do the same in each and every country i visit? And if not i should expect to be treated rudely?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
| (i am not from an english speaking country, but i guess you noticed that allready) |
Ah, so you're an American!
(warning: British sense of humour )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The one part of my (English) education that's lacking is foreign languages, my French is very poor. However I do make the attempt of ordering food & drink in bars & restaurants in the local language. My French is so bad that the barstaff/waiters nearly all answer back with English. The one time I managed a complete transaction in French it turned out the barman was also English!
Beyond food & drink I'm flummoxed, and this can cause problems in ski hire shops if their English is not so good or almost non existent.
People have said here about the French being unwilling to speak English. My recent visits to the Three Valleys has not really borne this out. In Meribel, the Ski Club Rep spoke good French, however he complained that most waiters replied to him in English. My own experience was due to my own carelessness, I got off the a middle station of a gondola and took the wrong set of B2’s from the rack. I only found I had the wrong skis when I tried to clip into them & found the bindings were miss-set. I went to the top of the gondola hoping to catch up with my skis and the owner of the pair I had picked up, but they had gone. I was unable to explain any of this in French to the lift attendant but he quickly got the gist of what I was saying and he had a look around for someone puzzling over the wrong skis (without success) then he took me to the pisteurs cabin where they made sure my bindings were reset for me, including the release setting, and then in English told me not to worry too much about the ski swap as they were both hired pairs (different shops, but at least both in Meribel), just take them back to one of the hire shops and explain and they should be able to sort it out.
End of the day back at my hire shop – “Bonjour...” then I switched to English to explain the swap. The shop owners English suddenly improved as he told me I’d have to pay for the lost skis, and how he wasn't going to run around to other hire shops trying to find mine etc. “What do you take me for Mr. Horn” he said. Hang on, he knows my name... Ah! There’s his assistant taking my name label off my own skis, they’ve got them back already and they are just winding me up! Smiles all round.
Sorry, went off on a long one there.
The point I was making is that I noticed no reticence among the French to speaking English if they could, the lifties/pisteurs looked after us careless tourists, and they had a good sense of humour into the bargain. I’m just ashamed of my poor command of French.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
