 Poster: A snowHead
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Let's not get into a doom loop of open v closed and what's what. Skiing specifically requires adjustments sometime significant, to be made and that's what PS was saying.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is the "open v. closed" debate broadly the same as "form v. function" or "style v. skills"? Phil seemed to be in the vanguard of 'functional' or 'skills' teaching, moving away from a stylistic or form-based approach to teaching that was dominant 20+ years ago (and still has its practitioners today, based on what I see some instructors doing). It seems to me fairly obvious that the best way to help skiers have more fun is to give them the skills to cope with whatever part of the mountain they want to ski, and not to reinforce a particular look or style or (static) body position which might work in one situation but be inappropriate for lots of other situations. That's at the core of my teaching, inspired by Phil amongst others.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ IMHO the open vs closed loop debate is distracting from the key point.
football, even on a perfect indoor astro-turf pitch is an open sport ?
why ? because the players / ball are always in different positions and the players need to adapt to that.
| Quote: |
"form v. function" or "style v. skills"?
It seems to me fairly obvious that the best way to help skiers have more fun is to give them the skills to cope with whatever part of the mountain they want to ski, and not to reinforce a particular look or style or (static) body position which might work in one situation but be inappropriate for lots of other situations. That's at the core of my teaching, inspired by Phil amongst others. |
agree.
basically Phil Smith is saying that you don't teach exact movements in skiing which the learner copies.
(though to be honest it hard not to use a little off this with complete beginners)
once you get into a variable environment these pre defined movements don't work "out of the box" and skiers need to adapt.
what we need to do is to teach / train how to control our skis (edge, press, rotate) and how to absorb bumps ( flex ankles, knees) etc.
these are individual skills, or competencies, required for the outcome.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I see you're point that there is no equivalent to off-piste, but the terrain can change quite heavily from game to game depending on whether, the pitch being used for other sports/concerts and the work done by groundstaff.
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Anyway, the fact that a pitch or court is more consistent than a mountain misses the point. The "openness" in tennis and football comes from your OPPONENTS constantly changing the challenge and forcing you to adjust.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm still with davidof. Depending on their aspirations ...
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ... to give them the skills to cope with whatever part of the mountain they want to ski ... |
... they're also going to need lots of time on snow, aerobic fitness, physical strength (i.e. a good power to weigh ratio), enjoyment of independence, self-reliance, a sense of adventure, a sense for self-preservation and probably some tolerant mates too, none of which are actually 'skills' at all.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@moffatross, I'm fresh out of most of those things, but still manage to have a good time, thanks largely to rob@rar and his partner in crime. 
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@Hurtle, I've said to rob@rar before that he always speaks sense, so I have no doubt that he's an excellent instructor. I'm also certain you're a prettier skier than I am (most 350 days skiers are), and wish I'd honed 'skills' earlier too and hadn't first strapped planks on my feet at the ripe old age of 36, but I'm looking ever prettier as I get older  and have made huge progress the last 2-3 seasons. Anyway, I'm sure you get my meaning that depending upon their aspirations, even the total mastery of the skills (mentioned by Haggis Trap (as defined by BASI) being edge, pressure, rotary control), won't account for any self-doubt that a skier will encounter without the non-skills stuff I listed. Anecdotally, I have (recently, in the Austrian Alps) skied with people who when the going was good, appeared to be relative masters of the universe wrt skills (and much prettier skiers than I am), but even in the led group, with a very reassuring guide, freaked out in poor viz, on a long, neve and crust slope of less than 40 degrees. I'm guessing they'd never encountered the 4 things listed in the article together ...
- I'm ok providing it doesn't get icy.
- I can ski powder but when it begins to get varied I struggle.
- I'm ok providing it doesn't get steep.
- I struggle in bad visibility.
Anyway, I'm ducking out of this thread. I haven't done any BASI stuff, and I don't really have a right to be here 
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@moffatross, you do have a right, simply by virtue of living in Scotland. And even I, as a southern softie, know that if you can ski in Scotland, you can ski anywhere! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @moffatross, you do have a right, simply by virtue of living in Scotland. And even I, as a southern softie, know that if you can ski in Scotland, you can ski anywhere! |
I have a lot of respect for those who learned and ski Scotland but don't imagine that the super boulevards of the mega resorts are the only game in Europe. My local resort only runs the piste basher when there is fresh snow - if they didn't compact the snow it would melt. That means that most of our resort skiing is in a very open environment, more so as we have lots of routes down through the trees which involve drop offs, narrow chutes etc.
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Ross - what you describe is often given the acronym TT-PP-EE
Technical
Tactical
Physical
Psychological
Environment
Equipment
All of these can affect performance - as you describe.
The issue of developing skills (the technical strand) is most beneficial if all the other 5 areas are also in place.
Though a good instructor should work in all areas.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 14-05-15 16:43; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| moffatross wrote: |
I'm still with davidof. Depending on their aspirations ...
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ... to give them the skills to cope with whatever part of the mountain they want to ski ... |
... they're also going to need lots of time on snow, aerobic fitness, physical strength (i.e. a good power to weigh ratio), enjoyment of independence, self-reliance, a sense of adventure, a sense for self-preservation and probably some tolerant mates too, none of which are actually 'skills' at all. |
I don't disagree with anything in that list. An instructor or guide can help their client discover some of those things by managing their experience, such as choosing terrain which is manageable even if it takes them out of their comfort zone. But other attributes the skier will need to find themselves.
As with much in life, the further you push your skiing the more personal responsibility you must take for improving your performance. Instructors, teachers, mentors, guides can all help, but they alone will not take you along the path to greatness. [/yoda] 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well everyone, I've been reading the debate with interest. For me the best way I learn (and I know not everyone is the same) is by being told "why" I need to do something in certain conditions and then being given techniques as to how it can be achieved, and why and how doing "x", creates the effect "y". Many years ago after giving up on the ESF to teach me anything that I felt helped, I watched an Ali Ross video and bought his book (around 1998 and I think even then it was quite old). Whether or not he is now old school, the simple explanation of why and how a ski turns engaged my brain and therefore my body far more than "shulders down ze slurp" ever could.
Other things I have kind of worked out for myself, the odd lightbulb moment here and there, aided by a micro tip from an experienced guide or instructor that brings about an "aha!" moment.
Skiing with adventurous teenagers (now grown up, and one now a ski instructor) and their gung ho Dad (Mr P) has had to make me more "open" too  -sometimes whether I like it or not! One thing I would observe about the process of expanding one's ski horizons-the better you are the lower down the "beginner to expert" category you rank yourself. 9 years ago, after a season in the Alps ski hosting on piste, I would have tentatively called myself an expert. Now, with a bit of off piste under my belt, a pair of fat skis in the ski locker, and a preference for skiing on snowy days rather than sunny days-I would put myself in the middle advanced spot.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
I would suggest that the big barrier to many intermediate skiers improving is fitness and lack of time on snow. |
Agreed.
Plus the fear of failing, falling and looking like a fool. The ego. Not egotistcal.
With the traditional 'closed' sport methodology of instruction most skiers venturing into all mountain, all conditions terrain will have gained a good level of competency on pisted runs often to black gradient difficulty through skill acquisition, a 'go to' turn shape & radius, fitness and physical strength.
When they're exposed to unconsolidated snow on uneven terrain this prescriptive & physical style of skiing - often edge heavy - is not appropriate and results in awkwardness, fatigue and falling. Feelings they may not have experienced in many days / weeks / holidays on snow.
This is a massive blow to the ego and confidence and turns what has become a fun activity into an ordeal.
Children, especially young children, who have the fortune (in more senses that one!) to start skiing at an early age don't get bent out of shape about failing & falling.
It wasn't that long ago for them that they were failing and falling learning to walk, run, ride a bike, and it's in their recent memory and something they accept as part of getting more proficient in an activity. |
I think that this observation by Mike is spot on. It's highlighted a huge psychological barrier to improvement. I shall remember this in my future teaching. Cheers Mike
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You know it makes sense.
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My pleasure.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Good article - the bit I really liked was that he included "concentrating" and "decision-making" as necessary "open" skills.
Absolutely.
Deciding what to do, where to go, what line to take, or whether to do something at all is a fundamental part of skiing, and one which no instructor I had on piste ever really emphasised.
I like to spend some time on every trip, wherever I am, skiing on one ski for a while. It shuts down your available options drastically (I am not good enough to go anywhere, in any conditions, on one ski with aplomb, something I can do on two skis without much difficulty) and forces me into thinking very carefully about what I am doing, where I am going, and how I am going to manage it. It's my way of getting outside my comfort zone and pushing whatever skills I have, and thinking carefully about the terrain, environment (especially other skiers), and what I need to do to get safely to where I want to go.
I remember when most of the "closed statements" in that article applied to me (and a couple still do, to some extent). Getting through that plateau is one of the most rewarding things a skier can do.
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FAQ
