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The "Next" La Grave - Mythical Destination for Boy's Road Trip ??

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
A boy's trip to La Grave is under planning, driven partially by a desire to ski it before its potential closure in 2017.

But, I have a perception that it's no longer the mythical hideout of wicked powder and unskied lines.

Frankly, and please don't take this the wrong way, if it's regularly reviewed on here and the SCGB run trips to it, it's way too well known. I think La Grave may have lost some of its magic.

So I'm wondering if anyone has any alternative suggestions. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to share your secrets with the general community Twisted Evil

About us:

- 4-5 very experienced skiers in our 40s (mostly) - all done at least several seasons as "hosts / piste guides" - all live in or near the Alps.

- We learned to and have skied powder extensively on 203 slalom skis (sometimes 207 GS). Humbly I would suggest that we ski "like locals" - albeit of our own generation. I'd submit that we generally "know what we're doing" on skis.

- All have touring kit, or at least access to it.

- Live in or near Geneva so up to a 3-4 hour driving distance from there would be good. Train travel acceptable.

- Would certainly consider possible need for a guide and will admit to limited glacier experience.

- No interest in throwing money at the problem. Happy to bunk down in sleeping bags and eat goat. Preferably cooked.

Terrain requested? Steep and ideally deep. Solitude. Far from the madding crowd. Hearty food and glass of wine at the end of the day.

Suggestions?? I think we've been through the obvious ones... and bear in mind that we know the PDS, Chamonix, GM, Monterosa, 4 Vallees, etc. very well. Suggestions will need ( I think ) to be somewhat left field.

Thanks in advance,

UANN.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Why not a road trip for the week then.

Two days in LG then pack up your bags and go elsewhere depending on the snow conditions, and let guide determine where is best.

Though you have to find a guide that is willing to travel and does not want to be locked in near to home for domestic reasons in the week that you want to travel - it does happen!

Last season we thought we'd find just an amazing area down in the Queyras with our guide saying it was fantastic, then a couple of weeks ago we were in Val Maira and that was just superb.

And in terms of distance not too far from La Grave - we went to the resort that can't be named and then on to Val Maira arriving early evening - it's all doable.

Two weekends ago a mate watching the forecasts etc scored a superb long weekend inc heli in Gressony and is booked to go back end of March and I might well nip up for a few days depending on snow etc
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We live in Europe - it's been pretty well explored over the last few millennia Very Happy I doubt we are going to come up with anything wildly new for you.

That said my suggestions would Andermatt perhaps? Ridiculous because I haven't been there but it wasn't on your list. Engelberg probably too obvious and rammed with overenthusiastic scandi powderhounds?

My only leftfield suggestion is outside your driving range but Sulden am Ortler / Solda depending on your language preference. Big mountains. High and plenty of long, steep descents accessible with a little hiking or skinning plus bigger touring options.
If you look at the piste map, its all the terrain off the back and side of the Schontaufspitze ar 3250m that I am taking about. Many routes to the road at 1900m.
http://www.suedtirol.com/wintersport/skifahren/sulden/pistenplan

It's not La Grave (or Chamonix) for that matter but it would be different.
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@Weathercam, I like your thinking, but we're probably a little time constrained. But as a general suggestion the Cottian Alps might be fun to explore.
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Hire a Guide and go touring for the weekend and stay here .


http://ecobnb.it/aosta/bed-breakfast.rifugio/mario-bezzi

the food is excellent .
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Or why not just do a couple of days up at the Conscrits hut

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=113015

Could add on a couple of days of lovely slack country touring from Les C lifts - there are quite a few nice looking couloirs.
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@under a new name, you live in the Alps, you tell us Happy

Wait for a big dump to hit southern Germany then find the ungroomed mountains of Bavaria, such as the Dammkar in Mittenwald and the Laber in Oberamagau. There are others, they are not a secret but then again they are not that well known. You'll have to hunt them down and let me know. There are lots of touring options in the area, and during the week these places are quiet - if 5 of you go you might double the number of skiers for the day (more so on the Laber, Dammkar is slightly more popular, but only slightly). Lifts won't run if there's serious avalanche risk, and the areas can go for weeks without decent snow, so timing is everything.

These places are no La Grave, but that's rather the point I think.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
La Grave is still *magic*.
I honestly reckon a week in la Grave is the best lift accessed adventure skiing on the planet ?
I first went in 2003, and to be honest I don't think it has got much busier over the past decade.
Lots of people talk about La Grave because of its reputation - but not many actually spend time there.
It is still a sleepy back water with 2 pubs, church, cheese shop and an old ski lift (hence rumours lift *may* close in 2017)

Engelberg / Andermatt or Alagna might be what you are looking for ?
At various points they have all been called the new "valley X" by those in the know.
Nice alpine towns and not so crowded - but to be honest still not the magic of riding the LG telephrique.
Grimentz / Zinal (Val D'Anniviers) could also be a great weeks skiing with touring kit ?
Stuben in Austria is also very nice.

Or if you want to leave central europe then how about Norway or Japan ?
Nice trip to be planning.
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Val de la Clarée -
http://youtube.com/v/GrTEOuny_9c
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Thanks all, so far, Germany sounds interesting. Andermatt was a thought as was Disentis/Sedrun which I've skied but only on piste.

@Haggis_Trap ah, ok interesting that you think it's still got it. I mean, clearly the terrain will not change, was really the ambience I wondered about. "best lift accessed adventure skiing on the planet" - better than Cham? Alagna... we have a house in Champoluc so we know the area pretty well - and several Monterosa "challenges" are on the list already.

A HM guide friend is just back from a trip to Zinal and his first comment was that he was worried when he got up the hill on a blue sky powder day and there were no tracks. He thought that was a little scary*, after spending most of his career in Cham Laughing

*tongue firmly in cheek

Norway/Japan etc. all too far away for the context of this request and the other halves would insist on being involved!
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@Little Martin, that's Nevache which is the stamping ground for La Grave guides taking people on two to three day hut to hut tours Mont Thabor etc

Also happens to be almost in my back garden - I can skin up from the house over a choice of two Cols and come back down into Nevache - taking and leaving the van the day before helps to get back - have done five tours that way so far this season.

From what UANN describes that might be a little too tame and Queyras and Valle Maira are far better in my opinion - and there must be loads of other valleys all over Europe that no one knows about etc

You all sound very experienced etc so settle on a week, have a guide booked (but brief him well) and then go where the best snow is.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 6-03-15 12:38; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I would say Andermatt is not that much less crammed with Scandis than is Engelberg. I've done 2 separate weeks there, and after about 2 days we were essentially doing variations of the same 2-3 runs. Other than the bits off the side of the pistes (similar in character to Gds Montets), the main get-away-from-it options are Guspis and Hospental. Need about a 20 min walk over a ridge to get into and then a long valley descent. It's OK but nothing particularly steep to attract - even the signature couloir to the East of the area is a bit tame (although there are a couple that look a little more challenging - snow-conditions dependent). Beyond that you're really looking at tours needing 1-2+ hours and getting over Disentis-way and neigbouring areas. So nothing like La Grave or Gressoney/Alagna for access to steep couloirs; as a skiing area I find it a little disappointing, but is great for tourers.

Our guide last week floated the idea of Queyras but in the end didn't go there - so probably an attraction for a day or two, but I have no personal experience of it. There're supposed to be some great couloirs into Puy St Vincent, although again that was an idea that in the end came to nothing.

Rather further afield, but I've heard great things of the High Tatras on the Polish/Slovakian border - but never been there. Should be quite off the beaten track and is supposedly particularly great touring - maybe better full-on touring than conventional lift-assisted off-piste though. There's obviously Zakopane itself in Poland, but it sounds as if off-piste is banned as it's in a nature park.

The main drags are a bit busy, but there're great descents if you walk for them in the Dolomites - and you already know Italian.

It may be mixed in with the seething masses, but I get more impressed by La Plagne every time I go there - on condition that the Roche de Mio and Bellcote are open: north-face descents are better, but the south- is pretty get-away-from-it too.

Not suitable for a direct-drive road-trip from Geneva, but the most memorable week I've ever been on was a week day-touring in the Lyngen Alps in Norway. You really owe yourself a trip there at least once in your life. The only uplift you get is what you earn for yourself, but it's certainly away from it all (although we did probably bump into on average one other group every day or two), and there is steep stuff if you look for it (better conditions for that in April/May than March). For me, the views knock anything I've ever seen in the Alps (with the possible exception of that from Hellbronner, and that around the Bertol hut) into a cocked hat.
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Grimentz/Zinal would be high on my list, been once this year and am going back in 2 weeks Very Happy
The Tea club do go there tho (me!)
But we were about the only off-pisters back in January wink
But, there is a certain something about La Grave which shouldn't be missed
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Actually, if you've not been there, you should also try Serre Chevalier itself. @Weathercam can obviously give you the full low-down, but there's some fantastic skiing around Montier: Traverse du Dome de Monetier, Couloir des Fees, Coulour du Petit Cure etc are just my high points, and we had a lovely traverse from Cucumelle through Grand Pre and descent into Chantemerle/Villeneuve last week...

I'm with the others though, in that nothing still quite has the sheer magic of La Grave for me (Chamonix did once but the queues for that lift kills it now)
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Joe Vallone seems to be finding untracked goods (and good goods at that!) pretty much every day in La Grave, judging by his Facebook account.

There are a million little places with RAD terrain where no-one skis offpiste (and barely onyone skis on piste) in the Alps. Take a look at Pejo3000 for one - we went there are few weeks back but got ROYALLY skunked on snow and visibility. There terrain is epic though. Seriously epic.

There's another Italian place that dropped it's lift pass price and stopped grooming this year that's supposed to be epic. I've been asked ( Laughing ) not to talk about, but I'll pm you the info later today. There's also Krippenstein in Austria, which isn't really a secret anymore, though seems to be dropping in popularity again. Pep Fujas once claimed it as the best resort in the world... BUT it's quite low so you want to decide at short notice when a likely storm rolls through.

I skied with a couple of semi-pro Polish guys a few weeks ago, and their stories and photos of the Tatras are... Well, it should be on everyone's list, put it that way wink

Pyrenees??

I'd submit that anywhere with any real reputation (Andermatt etc) will get tracked quickly, unless you're getting into very serious terrain or know the area VERY well.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
http://40tribesbackcountry.com/guided-ski-and-splitboard-tours/
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under a new name wrote:

@Haggis_Trap ah, ok interesting that you think it's still got it. I mean, clearly the terrain will not change, was really the ambience I wondered about. "best lift accessed adventure skiing on the planet" - better than Cham? Alagna... we have a house in Champoluc so we know the area pretty well - and several Monterosa "challenges" are on the list already.


I would say so....
What makes La Grave special is that they never sold out.
They could have easily cashed in and put a red piste down either side with a proper connection to Les 2 Alpes.
However that is not what La Grave is about.

The only other lift on the plant which is on similar scale is the Aiguille du Midi in Cham.
Though personally I think La Grave has more "fun" ski terrain visible from the lift (trip up aiguille du midi always feels very serious / glacial)
If you get the Vamos guide book then you could easily spend best part of a week exploring the La Grave classics routes yourself.
Though a local guide will get you into some further away terrain / 1500m couloirs which will blow your mind.
Only word of warning is that La Grave (like any off piste) can be very conditions dependent and southern alps can be extra fickle.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Haggis_Trap wrote:
........and southern alps can be extra fickle.


The way the weather's looking currently think I'll be going over to LG on my push bike!

Could be good spring skiing soon if this keeps up (which looks as if it will), though will be interesting to see how quickly the wind blown soufle / croute transforms in to something to be enjoyed Puzzled
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@Haggis_Trap, interesting. OK, I'm back to being very interested about LG then!

@GrahamN, nice to see you back!

@kat.ryb, yeah, for big trips all that sort of thing is interesting. A friend has guided out there a few times.

@clarky999, I think you're comment about a million little places is about right. Maybe what we need to do is just get in the car(s) and decide on a direction and ski what we find...could be fun Cool
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I'd throw a few points in re Andermatt.

1) It tracks slower than la Grave and there is more touring involved to reach some of the more interesting routes. But it is not undiscovered by any stretch of the imagination and it gets weekend traffic from Zurich. This can be exacerbated in a low snow year as Andermatt, like Stuben, gets an abnormally large amount of snow. Sitting on the border between Uri and Ticinio it gets hammered irrespective of which direction (north or south) the weather systems come in from.

2) There is more skiing than immediately meets the eye. The Felsental, Guspis and Giraffe get skied a lot. Other things like the Gefallengrat couloirs, not so much. You are more dependent on skinning in order to reach much of the skiing. More so than LG. Difficulty wise, Felsental and Guspis are equivalent to Chancel. The Giraffe is probably about the same level of difficulty as the Freaux, although imv, a much better ski. Other things are much more committing. There is also Disentis an hour away by train, which I have yet to ski. I'll leave that one for others.

A proportion of the routes are shown here:

http://wepowder.com/playgrounds/andermatt/routes

3) There are no trees. If you are stuck there in bad weather then it is miserable. The nearest options are Airolo (never skied) and Disentis (never skied)

4) Guide wise, Norris used Dan Loutrel and rates him. His week TR is here: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2015208

Think of it like a mini Grands Montets. You can go anywhere off the top and it will usually have something good somewhere. Unless it is snowing, in which case you are pretty much hosed.
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a 3rd vote here from Zinal/Grimentz/St-Luc... enough terrain there to keep you busy for ever I would have thought, never mind a week.
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@gorilla agreed in parts, although you've probably had better conditions than me (my week there last year was mostly whiteout Sad), and I've never come across the Gefallengrat. We did a trip over to Disentis which was quite nice - mixed terrain varying between piste and quite outback but nothing particularly challenging.

Quote:
Difficulty wise, Felsental and Guspis are equivalent to Chancel.
Agreed - although without the attraction of the Lac couloirs.
Quote:
The Giraffe is probably about the same level of difficulty as the Freaux, although imv, a much better ski.
Here we disagree; Giraffe is about the most disappointing couloir I've ever skied: it's about 1/4 the length of Freaux, about 2-3 times as wide at it's narrowest point and its steep bit lasts about 10m. Then a huge long flat skate/pole back to town First time I went down it we were at the bottom before I'd even noticed it was supposed to be a couloir!
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Quote:

@GrahamN, nice to see you back!
+1
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@under a new name, can I come
wink
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Haggis_Trap wrote:

The only other lift on the plant which is on similar scale is the Aiguille du Midi in Cham.


Slightly off topic, I apologise, but the only other lift I can think of is Marte in Las Lenas, Argentina. Though you do actually run more risk of death on the damn lift than skiing the tons and tons of incredible terrain from the top!

I'll add a +1 for the secret Bavarian spots, which can really, really be incredible and very quiet. But unreliable snow is the deciding factor.

I can pass my own judgement on La Grave in just over a week once I've had my first taste
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Haggis_Trap wrote:

I first went in 2003, and to be honest I don't think it has got much busier over the past decade..

I dont' know about 2003 but it is less busy than in the 1990s because the local French punter skiers don't go there as much now.

I just found this article

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0909-la-grave-trouble-in-paradise/P0/index.html

which claims visitor numbers have dropped from 60 to 50k per year (at the time the article was written in 2009).
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http://freeride.picdumidi.com/ It's the La Grave of the pyrenees, only been open as a specific freeride destination for about three years now I think. Plus it's in the middle of the area that has had the most snow again this year. Worth a look I'd say.
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@davidof, agree about French punter skiers which I mentioned before a la famille taking the main routes down with just a picnic in their back pack, and they could well be the drop in numbers etc

But in these days of more accessible info etc over the internet then, I think on the days when it's good, more people (groups etc) are aware of the conditions and make a bee line for there.

I am still hoping for some more late March / April days when we can nip over and there just be a few people getting the lift up from P2, that's when it's so good and just unbelievable that it can be that empty..............................
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
the French locals call it "Jan-Vril".
The cold powder storms that that give mid-winter conditions on the upper mountain in April
Usually the mountain is empty by then with no more than 100 skiers each day.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
les giboulées de mars
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Poster: A snowHead
Pumba wrote:
http://freeride.picdumidi.com/ It's the La Grave of the pyrenees, only been open as a specific freeride destination for about three years now


well over a decade that is
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One more vote for Andermatt or Val d'annivers.

Andermatt is such a great place. More relaxed in a way compared to the seriousness of La Grave and the village is cozier than La Grave, although La Grave also has a special place in my hearth. I think Gemstock is the perfect freeriding mountain. The reason for that is all the possibilities to go down from the top and the fact that routefinding is quite straightforward, although some of the traverses to some of the lines can be hairy. But having a big, steep mountain were you can ski virtually 360 deegres (almost) and most of the routes have decent steepness is just heaven. On top of that, having lunch in Hospental after a ride down from the Gemstock is just perfect. On top of that, taking a day out to Disentis with the morning train spices up a week in Andermatt.

Val d'Annivers is also fantastic when it comes to freeriding away from the crowds. I have only stayed in Grimentz, but what a place. Like taking the history train back 500 years back in time when you are walking through the main street. With the opening of the new cable car from Grimentz to Zinal last year, things have become so much easier. The run down to the Moiry dam is a highlight and if you are up for it, skiing down the main face of the itself is something special. There are so many varieties of routes to take in the area around Grimentz and Zinal that are easy reached with a little hike or skinning. Another great trip is from the top of Grimentz down the backvalley down Rechy valley (i think it is called). In good winter seasons, you can ski all the way down to the Rhone valley. Going back is also pretty awesome through the woods from Vercorin to St Jean. There are also some great skiing in St Luc and I heard good things about going on the back to another valley from the top. Unfortunatly, the weather did not permit us doing that.

I cant jugde which place I like the most, but both places are great freeriding destinations. And they are quite similar in tone to both La Grave and Alagna, although the big mountain feeling maybe are more felt in both La Grave and of course even more in Alagna.

These were my tips: hope you have a great trip whatever you decide.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
We went to Andermatt at half-term and absolutely loved it. Even for half term it was not at all crowded with just one proper lift queue during the week. We had a big dump of snow on the night we arrived, but we were still making powder turns over a week after it, even on the main freeride routes.

We used the freeride map which is really good for finding the off piste routes which really helps finding some of the stuff. We did the Felsental, Guspis, a variation on the Girrafe and a few others which I do not know the names of. Favorite was the variation of the Giraffe where we found nice powder 6 days after the snowfall, there is generally a bit of bushwhacking or a pole out of the off piste runs but definitely worth it. Another good run was following the tracks off the top of the tbar but bearing right instead of joining the piste where it was a nice steep powder decent with few tracks but involved crossing a semi-hairy river bed that I probably wouldn't want to do again.

Also went over Disentis on a couple of days, first day with no visibility whats over on the first day and couldn't find the trees except the lower ones- but then again we couldn't see 10m in front of us so it wasn't a good idea to be going too far away from the piste. When we went back again there seemed to be a lot of possibilities there, but skins were needed more than in Andermatt. Also looked likes some nice day tours from Oberalpass (5 minute train ride) where we were seeing first tracks from the train on the last day. As said by others its a little tricky in Andermatt when there's bad visibility as there are no trees whatsoever- but it is also north facing so holds its snow really well.

My Dad, who has skiied most of the major off piste resorts really rated it and ranked it up there with his favorites. He also loves Grimentz and Davos so they are worth a look too. We felt that we barely scratched the surface of what is available there, and hopefully we will be going back next year with skins to open up more possibilities.
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JackSkier wrote:
He also loves Grimentz and Davos


Davos is great and the good thing is no faffing with taxis and stuff because you can always ski down to a rail terminal somewhere and get back, Arolla, St Antonien etc. Nice food too.
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Best pizzas in the world in Davos.

Best In The World.
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Think this thread wins "most mouth-watering" for 2014/15...so many damn places I haven't skied properly.
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