 Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry I know this will probably result in a 'visit a proper fitter' response but here is where I am up to.
Ski d lots as a teen. Hired boots. Never comfortable. Some worse than others. Stopped skiing.
5 years ago restarted. Skiid for a week. Thought my feet were broken. Turns out I have raised arches. Bought some fairly basic boots with plan to have moulded insoles in them. Aim was not for a performance boot but something to fit my foot. They felt fine with the insole they had in the shop. Took to shop that does moulded insoles they persuaded me to try orange superfeet, so I did. Skiid them for a week. Was not skiing hard as Mrs was pregnant. Had some leg pain and still some foot issues - either numbness if i do them up too tight or pain across ball of foot like id been on tip toes for hours. Baby born so no skiing for a while.
Two weeks ago dug the boots out and put them on pretty tight. Agony. So got hold of some blue superfeet as felt like my arch was being crushed. Seemed OK. Not perfect comfort but OK.
Now in Austria. Skid on day 0 for half an hour, OK. skiid all day on day 1 but just on moderate blue. Kept having to tighten boot more and more as felt like the snow was controlling the ski not me. Felt uncomfortable but not noticeably painful.
Next day I managed 400m before going to a shop that does heat molds. Heat moulded sole done. Almost felt perfect in the shop but they didn't fully tighten the boot. I could wall round the shop in them without thinking a concrete block was crushing my feet. I absolutely hate walking in ski boots. Skiid a bit that afternoon on moderate blues and was OK but again finding that I moved from 3rd last tension across lower calf to 2nd last to last just to feel 'in control' and as doing so seemed to get colder feet (it was +4C so not weather related).
Next day I went down a long (4.5km) and slightly red tinted blue. Was icey under 1cm of fresh powder and was hard work. By the end I was struggling with leg pains in knees but also foot pain. Skiid some more tough blues and a couple if reds in the afternoon and was having to release boot clips when stopped but still feeling the snow was controlling my ski not me.
So thoughts?
Am I just a rubbish skier
Are boots rubbish?
Is it the skis?
Is it the boot fit?
I see most people leaving boot clips done up when stopped for lunch... Wow I can't imagine ever doing that even as a teenager I opened them up. Am I a wimp or have I never had boots that properly fit?
But how can I find a boot that is comfy when I was amazed by the comfort in the shop both when buying originally and the moulded insert. ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You answered your own question I think, suggest you may need to start from scratch with a proper boot fitting and try on a range of boots before taking the plunge, all have different lasts for different feet shapes, large/ narrow etc. I used to have problems however now wear mine all day and never touch them, like slippers....unfortunately it isn't easy (or cheap!).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@polc1410, the boot which felt "amazingly comfortable" in the shop was possibly way too big, or just has too much volume around your foot so you are having to over tighten to get control and this cuts circulation off, if you don't tighten then you are having to grip with your foot to hold the boot stable and that causes leg pains.
it could also be technique related but work on one thing at a time
step one: get into a decent boot fitter and have the boots assessed, they may just need some adjustments
step two: trust the boot fitter, if he says they are fundamentally wrong and shows you why, STOP! bin them and start from scratch
closest guy i can think of to Durham is Keith Yeoman at Foot stability in Newcastle, he is based at the ice rink, i don't have a number handy for him right now but i am sure you will find him
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That's why bootfitters have a job. Your boots sound too big. Cheapo boots usually are very wide and you soun as you're in a size too big too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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They definitely aren't too long (if anything they could be too short). They could be too wide although I find that counter intuitive to the over tightening thing.. Its like they compress over time or expand with my leg heat...
What I'm not clear on is how when I'm at the boot fitter he will know if they fit when I think they are OK till I get on the slope. Was thinking of trying to get a fitting out here while in Austria but the heat moulded sole guy although he spoke far better English than my German didn't make me think we could have a great conversation about my pains etc.
So next question. If I go somewhere in Newcastle for fitting do I go early next week while bruises and pains probably still there or wait a few weeks for it to recover? Probably won't ski again for several months...
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@polc1410, suggest you go while away and get it sorted whilst away, it's an empirical thing, you may need to keep calling back. I'd ignore the language barrier a decent fitter will know what the issue is and be able to sort it. Like I said above suggest you consider new boots, go to a reputable shop with a large selection to try, you'll soon know what's right and I suggest the Bootfitter will know before you do.
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| Quote: |
They definitely aren't too long (if anything they could be too short).
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Can I just ask why you're so sure about this? Boot sizing is quite complicated and I've lost count of the number of people with boot problems who've been using online sizing charts as a guide.
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Whatever CeM said.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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difficult to find the right bootfitter in resort though, with no local knowledge - they aren't all good.
Just one thing on technique - boots which are the correct fit (ie when you have ankles bent in a "ski position" your toes are just pulled back from the front of the boot) can become uncomfortable if your ankles are straight and you are sitting back a bit (a very common fault) then your toes can be crushed a bit into the end of the boot. I've had that problem, with boots that fit perfectly well. And maybe that's more likely to happen if they're a bit too wide.
My knees also tell me if I'm not skiing well - the moment my weight is back a bit, they feel it instantly.
I'm not suggesting that your boots are OK (and whatever CEM said........) but if you've gone back to skiing without having lessons, that might be a good idea, too.
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| olderscot wrote: |
| Quote: |
They definitely aren't too long (if anything they could be too short).
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Can I just ask why you're so sure about this? Boot sizing is quite complicated and I've lost count of the number of people with boot problems who've been using online sizing charts as a guide. |
Because to avoid the toes touching the tip of boots I need to lean forward.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| polc1410 wrote: |
| olderscot wrote: |
| Quote: |
They definitely aren't too long (if anything they could be too short).
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Can I just ask why you're so sure about this? Boot sizing is quite complicated and I've lost count of the number of people with boot problems who've been using online sizing charts as a guide. |
Because to avoid the toes touching the tip of boots I need to lean forward. |
Omg, you really need to see a bootfiter ... I was skiing with too big boots (having similar perceptions as you are having). Do yourself a favour .... The things that touches your toes is not even a hard boot, but the soft inliner.
If you take out your inliner and your toes touch the front of the boots, how big is ghe gap between your heel and the back of your boot?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| @polc1410, suggest you go while away and get it sorted whilst away, it's an empirical thing, you may need to keep calling back. I'd ignore the language barrier a decent fitter will know what the issue is and be able to sort it. Like I said above suggest you consider new boots, go to a reputable shop with a large selection to try, you'll soon know what's right and I suggest the Bootfitter will know before you do. |
I suspect you are right, but I was not 100% convinced they wouldn't just say "Stupid Brit in cr@ppy cheapo boots - let sell him something expensive that will feel comfortable enough till he gets home and he will probably never be back to complain..." I was leaving on the Saturday first thing so it was only 2 day of skiing and the Thursday was so snowy we mostly mooched around the ski-school with the little one so lots of little runs and resting which waiting for visibility to improve. Friday was only ever going to be a half day ski as the 4 year old wanted us at the medal ceremony from ski school!
I'm now back and trying to hunt down Keith Yeoman... google is not proving much use but I have found him via twitter and he is at the Whitley Bay Ice Rink... never knew there was a fitter in the North East or would have gone before going out...
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@polc1410, or go see Graham at Rivington Alpine near Chorley. Well worth a day trip over. Talk to him, he'll tell you what he thinks.
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You know it makes sense.
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Can definitely recommend the Fischer Vacuum boots. Tried for ages to get boots to fit me with no luck before i got them. Now had them for 2 seasons and they`re still perfect.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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What @Markymark29 said
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Poster: A snowHead
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When I needed to replace my aging boots I hired several different ones on consecutive days until I found a comfortable but solid fitting pair. They were Salomon's.
On return to the UK I checked with the importer to see if the last size had been changed in the preceding few years - it hadn't.
I bought a new pair of the same size and model from eBay but after a couple of days skiing one pinched my little toe a bit (I guess that the rental boots had become slightly looser or the inner had crushed a bit). A resort shop did a 2mm stretch on the offending boot and I have skied on them for the last five years clocking up an average of about 10 weeks a year. There is no slack in them and they are extremely comfortable (I don't even loosen them during a lunch stop).
I don't really think there is any substitute to trying out several models.
I also believe that some fitting outfits that recommend expensive modifications to standard boots are just using the unwary as cash cows. After all the major manufacturers wouldn't make boots that don't fit, on purpose.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I really like a tight supportive grip on my feet so am prepared to have a boot that is not always comfortable. Yet by putting myself in the hands of a top class fitter in Austria he put me in a fairly low volume race boot with a foam injection liner (that bit was my idea as I have very narrow ankles and hate movement there). I can wear these boot all day but still prefer to have them slightly looser the first couple of runs and then tighten them up a notch as the day goes on. Glory be to boot faff!!!
Minor mods have been a small blow out on the outside of each foot. The first two years I skied 27 weeks in them and then the liners were so packed out that all my previous problems started coming back. Bought new liners for the shells in a 2 hr fitting and the boots are good as new again.
There really is a compromise between high levels of performance and comfort to be made, but also a lot of foot pain problems are due to using incorrect technique thus putting pressure on your feet or clenching the food muscles. I know that if I am skiing badly off piste and making a lot of hockey stop type moves I get pain in the outside of my foot.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Go to CEM's in Bicester. Leave the OH at the outlets if you have a ball and chain. I went there from Cornwall and it was worth every ml of fuel. Ended up with boots that were 2 FULL sizes smaller than I been given by a well known outdoor chain store near Covent Garden. Mondo 26.0 v 28.0 which when fitted with some excellent Zip Fit liners released me from blue run timidity. I have v narrow feet ~93mm and I could just about turn sideways in the old boots. I now absolutely know that I - or wildly inappropriate ski choice - am the weak link not the boots. Decent of CEM to recommend someone else but I would defo recommend him.  Not the cheapest way but has got to be very near the best.
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Who diagnosed high arches? Beware that custom footbeds are the extended warranty of ski shops.
The foot should not be immobilised. You should be able to pronate/evert/tip the foot inside the boot. Balancing on a tipped outside foot is where you get your stability from not cranking up the buckles.
Elite skiers have strong feet which allows them to ski in a relatively loose boot. If you have weak floppy feet caused by poor footwear then an orthotic and more support from the boot may be in order. However, the best thing you can do for you skiing, boot fit and wallet is spending the summer walking around barefoot - on damp sand if possible. I know someone who did just that a couple of years ago and they now have happy feet all winter.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| @polc1410, or go see Graham at Rivington Alpine near Chorley. Well worth a day trip over. Talk to him, he'll tell you what he thinks. |
I travelled form Glasgow to Birmingham for a meeting and shoehorned in a visit to Graham en route. Boots still comfy and responsive a few years later.
I would go back of a reliner and refit next time to him. Morale of the story. Go see a Professional.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
the best thing you can do for you skiing, boot fit and wallet is spending the summer walking around barefoot - on damp sand if possible.
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that mightn't be very good for your wallet if you usually spend most of the summer working to earn the money to buy the boots.
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| Quote: |
custom footbeds are the extended warranty of ski shops
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No, I don't believe that's the case.
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The foot should not be immobilised. You should be able to pronate/evert/tip the foot inside the boot. Balancing on a tipped outside foot is where you get your stability from not cranking up the buckles.
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I really don't think so.
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Elite skiers have strong feet which allows them to ski in a relatively loose boot.
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Which is why racers typically ski in a boot that's sized way smaller than anyone else would wear and wear their boots only for racing as they're too uncomfortable for anything else??
A good snug fit is essential for anyone and the more elite you get the snugger the fit you want.
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| under a new name wrote: |
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custom footbeds are the extended warranty of ski shops
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No, I don't believe that's the case.
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The foot should not be immobilised. You should be able to pronate/evert/tip the foot inside the boot. Balancing on a tipped outside foot is where you get your stability from not cranking up the buckles.
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I really don't think so.
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Elite skiers have strong feet which allows them to ski in a relatively loose boot.
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Which is why racers typically ski in a boot that's sized way smaller than anyone else would wear and wear their boots only for racing as they're too uncomfortable for anything else??
A good snug fit is essential for anyone and the more elite you get the snugger the fit you want. |
If you are right then there is a crystal globe winner who doesn't understand skiing or how to set up his boots  ! These racers you speak of, maybe they have weaker feet and feel the need for extra support - are we talking WC podium level? I am told Cuche wandered round all day with his race boots done up in perfect comfort. There are obviously different schools of thought on this one, admittedly my sample size isn't significant.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Kenny, I don't know you, nor your sample and I am not in a position to come across dogmatically, but my understanding is that for most people, the better you get the closer the fit. And footbeds are step 1.
I know myself that for me, and I believe I'm not a terrible skier, that precision of fit contributes hugely to performance and enjoyment.
That said I used to ski with an Olympic downhiller who, back in the days, had big arguments with his sponsor as he really liked the supersoft "punter" rear entry boots tht they offered at the time and it was difficult to make them look like race boots on the podium.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Kenny, I don't know you, nor your sample and I am not in a position to come across dogmatically, but my understanding is that for most people, the better you get the closer the fit. And footbeds are step 1.
I know myself that for me, and I believe I'm not a terrible skier, that precision of fit contributes hugely to performance and enjoyment.
That said I used to ski with an Olympic downhiller who, back in the days, had big arguments with his sponsor as he really liked the supersoft "punter" rear entry boots tht they offered at the time and it was difficult to make them look like race boots on the podium. |
Interestingly those who I spoke to who are multi discipline sometimes used a softer boot for downhill than slalom. But the ability to pronate the foot inside the boot and was seen as an absolute must and I was warned away from custom foam liners because the fit could be 'too good' in the hands of an inexpert fitter. One bootfitter described a 'steering punch' to the boot to allow the foot to tip to the inside. A former coach at the Whistler Mountain Ski Club told me they get rid most (not all) of the custom footbeds the kids all turn up with because it blocks that movement. I hasten to add we aren't talking the two sizes too big plastic bucket the average tourist gets put into so for them snugger is indeed better. Snug but not too snug.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Kenny, bits of what you say make sense but there is a lot of white noise in the background
1 a well made custom footbed is not designed to "block the foot " as you say, it is designed to stabilise the foot in its best functioning position and reduce excessive pronation/supination...in basic terms it is is designed to stabilise an unstable foot
2 all of the racers i know ski in a boot which most people would not tolerate, there is something about muscle memory and tolerance to compression to be considered here, that said racers train for several hours a day and to them their boots are perhaps not "comfortable" in the same respect as comfort is to a recreational skier but they are not hopping around the hill in agony (many recreational skiers need to get their feet "fit to ski" sitting at a desk 50 weeks a year does not achieve this )
3 yes multi discipline skiers use different boots for different events, normally (unless you are at the very top and have multitudes of boots ) it is one for speed (DH & SG) and one for tech (GS & SL) these boots tend to be not only stiffer for the tech disciplines but set up differently as well, equally for a speed boot we would set up a softer footbed to allow the subtleness that is required to find the edge and apply pressure, if setting up for tech a firmer product gives the precision
as for nations and what they do differently the Austrians have always been a bit "no footbeds required" although form what i am seeing this is changing, the french, italians and other euro alpine nations it is a bit 50/50 and the US/canadian racers for the most part have something in their boots in terms of support
so maybe you have had a bad experience of a footbed or a foam done by a fitter who did not have a clue, don't think that single experience is all that is out there, and please stop reading David MacPhails work from the 1980's if it is going to cloud your judgement
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@CEM, those foot roller things you have in your place Colin, what brand are they? Can't seem to find them on-line..
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@CEM, When I have my foam liners fitted the chap spends a lot of time grinding down and shaping the stick on pads that avoid pressure points on the bony areas and he also makes sure that my position is correct and an appropriate tension applied to the boot buckles. He monitors the flow and setting of the mixture and checks after the process to see how well the liners have formed. Not a quick process but I really appreciate the end result.
And I am still using my 8 year old footbeds from a previous boot fitter; after looking at them and how they support my feet he says that in now way do I need new ones. I'm hoping that my feet remain the same with regard to high arches etc, I may get 20 years out of them 
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You know it makes sense.
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@Levi215, we use two pedi roller and the trigger point nano roller
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| CEM wrote: |
| @Kenny, bits of what you say make sense but there is a lot of white noise in the background |
Lets try to create some clarity  .
| CEM wrote: |
1 a well made custom footbed is not designed to "block the foot " as you say, it is designed to stabilise the foot in its best functioning position and reduce excessive pronation/supination...in basic terms it is is designed to stabilise an unstable foot
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Right, 'well made' for an 'unstable foot'. But the oft repeated myth on this forum and by ski boot salesmen is that a custom footbed is essential for a 'good fit'. This simply not true. Many (most) custom footbeds out there are doing more harm than good. Also, not everyone understands what constitutes a 'good fit' which is what I think the OP is asking.
| CEM wrote: |
2 all of the racers i know ski in a boot which most people would not tolerate, there is something about muscle memory and tolerance to compression to be considered here, that said racers train for several hours a day and to them their boots are perhaps not "comfortable" in the same respect as comfort is to a recreational skier but they are not hopping around the hill in agony (many recreational skiers need to get their feet "fit to ski" sitting at a desk 50 weeks a year does not achieve this )
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And race liners aren't soft like recreational liners so we aren't talking ugg boot comfort. But the foot is not immobilised or crushed - this is not a 'good fit'. The foot needs to be able to tip/evert/pronate inside the boot. The ankle needs to be able to move in order to balance.
From a technique perspective (which the OP was also asking about) he was getting bounced around. The instinctive reaction is to tighten the buckles and blame the boot fit. It sort of helps but your feet will hurt and it is probably counter productive because the tight boot is preventing you from tipping the foot. This foot tipping is not about tipping the ski so much as giving you a platform to balance against inside the boot. Definitely something that benefits from a visual demonstration. Anyway, when you are balanced on your edges with a tipped/pronated/everted foot you are in for a much smoother ride.
| CEM wrote: |
3 yes multi discipline skiers use different boots for different events, normally (unless you are at the very top and have multitudes of boots ) it is one for speed (DH & SG) and one for tech (GS & SL) these boots tend to be not only stiffer for the tech disciplines but set up differently as well, equally for a speed boot we would set up a softer footbed to allow the subtleness that is required to find the edge and apply pressure, if setting up for tech a firmer product gives the precision
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Some even have different boots for different temperatures.
| CEM wrote: |
as for nations and what they do differently the Austrians have always been a bit "no footbeds required" although form what i am seeing this is changing, the french, italians and other euro alpine nations it is a bit 50/50 and the US/canadian racers for the most part have something in their boots in terms of support
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That's interesting, thanks. I only have a US/Canadian take on things.
| CEM wrote: |
so maybe you have had a bad experience of a footbed or a foam done by a fitter who did not have a clue, don't think that single experience is all that is out there, and please stop reading David MacPhails work from the 1980's if it is going to cloud your judgement |
Er no. 'Maybe' you shouldn't guess. Funnily enough I have met Dave but we talked exclusively about music! He was in a jazz band. Nice guy.
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Poster: A snowHead
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My money's on big Colin. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@mcspreader, mine too...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I had similar pain as you.
I had a private lesson and turn out it was my stance that was all wrong! 3 hours later I have control of my skis and the balls of my feet are no longer agony.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well I've learnt something from Colin and I hope to learn more about his philosophy and system. Everyone can 'win' if you approach threads like this with an open mind.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Kenny, imdo hope younthink we all were 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Kenny, one question, in your opinion (or tom the best of your knowledge) what percentage of feet are unstable?
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| Kenny wrote: |
| Well I've learnt something from Colin and I hope to learn more about his philosophy and system. Everyone can 'win' if you approach threads like this with an open mind. |
My mind on this is closed. CEM has an excellent reputation here because many of us have been his customers, and been by his professional knowledge and honesty - so honest, that when I went to him for my present set of boots, he decided he did not have suitable ones in his stock, and sent me on my way to another fitter whom he trusted.
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| CEM wrote: |
| @Kenny, one question, in your opinion (or tom the best of your knowledge) what percentage of feet are unstable? |
More a wild guess...
Third world - not many.
First world - much higher. Sedentary lifestyle poor footware.
Ski town - Active, better educated about footware.
High end racers - None.
Brits with problem feet who get sent to see you? Most if not all.
I have a question for you.
Should the ski boot immobilise the foot?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Kenny, I'm curious. Just what do you mean by "immobilised"?
I'd submit that my feet are pretty firmly held, and that seems about right.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Kenny wrote: |
| Well I've learnt something from Colin and I hope to learn more about his philosophy and system. Everyone can 'win' if you approach threads like this with an open mind. |
My mind on this is closed. CEM has an excellent reputation here because many of us have been his customers, and been by his professional knowledge and honesty - so honest, that when I went to him for my present set of boots, he decided he did not have suitable ones in his stock, and sent me on my way to another fitter whom he trusted. |
I don't understand your post, where have I said Colin isn't a good bootfitter? I am interested in his take on the role of the foot in skiing and how the boot enables that.
I am not the spokesman for skiing in Canada but when one of the local bootfitters is also a CSIA L4 examiner I am reasonably sure I have a handle on the party line. But Canada can be a bit parochial so...
The other thing is that a 'good fit' doesn't just depend on the bootfitter. Colin can't transport himself into your body to feel what you feel inside the boot. I don't think. The better educated we are about what constitutes a good fit the easier it is for guys like him. This, I think, is the crux of the OPs question because I hear it so often "are they supposed to hurt".
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FAQ
