Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
👁 durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Skis for BASI L1 & L2

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
balernoStu wrote:
@Gaza, shame about the scrapes on new skis! Ask him to avoid any metalwork around the edge of the slope and the dendix itself shouldn't be too bad on them. Kids don't seem to suffer overheating bases as adults do, likely due to their lighter weight. I've been up Thu evenings recently and the slope has been running reasonably well even when dry. Someone mentioned lubricant had been applied, but I don't know the details such as how long it remains effective.

If you're doing L1 at Braehead then, while the course would be possible on the slope's rental skis, I suggest you'll have more fun on something better. Ellis Brigham in the shopping centre may have suitable skis to demo/hire for the duration of the course. Edit: have you tried your Fischers on the indoor slope? They may be ok, and I haven't experienced damage using my own skis indoors.

Good luck for Oscar in the Twin Peaks!


Thanks for the advice Stu. I've used my Fischers at Braehead previously and they were fine. Undoubtedly they would be better than the rental skis. I'll suss out what EB might be able to offer next weekend as Oscar is also doing the GBR and Scottish on 13th & 14th. He doesn't really have a clue what he is letting himself in for but he was adamant he wanted to do the Twin Peaks and Braehead races. I suspect he will be one of the youngest U10s there. However, it is all good experience for him and if anything he will get a great deal from it watching the other kids.

I'll also have a chance to try out my Fischers again as I'm planning on taking Oscar there on the Friday night for a bit of practise ahead of the races. I've also been roped in as a volunteer on the course for the races but that won't give me much of a chance to put them through their paces. Very Happy

Are you at the Twin Peaks and Braehead with your kids?
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
galpinos wrote:
@Masque

You don't half write some drivel. The point most people are making is that an instructor should turn up on skis that are appropriate to what they are teaching. This does not mean they can't ski on other skis, just that it is easier to demonstrate when you are appropriate skis for the job that are similar to that of the client.

If I turned up for a piste based lesson on 165 skinny slalom skis wanting to improve on tight carved turns and the instructor rocked up on 30m radius fat powder chargers I'd be pretty disappointed.

L1 seems to involve teaching beginners. Having a ski suitable for demonstrating those drills (and that will be suitable for further levels) seems sensible.


Frankly for teaching beginners and most up to around their third week of skiing a reasonably soft twintip is probably the most practical choice.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Gaza wrote:
...Oscar is also doing the GBR and Scottish on 13th & 14th. He doesn't really have a clue what he is letting himself in for but he was adamant he wanted to do the Twin Peaks and Braehead races. ...


I'll look out for Oscar and yourself on the 14th then, glad to hear he's so keen!
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
I would argue that the image of the person in charge makes a huge difference. Especially to the younger candidate.
If the instructor presents himorher self as switched on, smart and using amazing skis then that's all part of the alchemy. (e.g. Wow. He's got factory skis and his DINs go up to 23!).
I'm not impressed if I'm on a BASI course and everyone is on GS oversize type skis -if the trainer then turns up on wee slalomys or some kind of joke ski.
The teacher needs to be an impressive skier. If heorshe uses punter skis, then the class a) Will not see an impressive performance or see the standard to set their ambitions at.
And b) won't see the need to obtain appropriate design, high quality well tuned skis.
The instructor needs to be the model. I believe that most of the learning and skill acquisition is done subconsciously based on an image held in the mind of the learner, where the learner wants to be like and ski like the instructor one day.
D.C.
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
SkiPresto wrote:
I would argue that the image of the person in charge makes a huge difference. Especially to the younger candidate.
If the instructor presents himorher self as switched on, smart and using amazing skis then that's all part of the alchemy. (e.g. Wow. He's got factory skis and his DINs go up to 23!).
I'm not impressed if I'm on a BASI course and everyone is on GS oversize type skis -if the trainer then turns up on wee slalomys or some kind of joke ski.
The teacher needs to be an impressive skier. If heorshe uses punter skis, then the class a) Will not see an impressive performance or see the standard to set their ambitions at.
And b) won't see the need to obtain appropriate design, high quality well tuned skis.
The instructor needs to be the model. I believe that most of the learning and skill acquisition is done subconsciously based on an image held in the mind of the learner, where the learner wants to be like and ski like the instructor one day.
D.C.


How many clients "check out" the din settings on your skis @SkiPresto? are they not there to learn how to ski?

Surely if your client is concerned with din settings then they are a beginner and maybe you should be wearing
Quote:
wee slalomys or some kind of joke ski


Quote:
The teacher needs to be an impressive skier.


Really? Surely the teacher needs to be an impressive teacher, and in the face of it surely that teacher should be able to ski on a wee slalomy ski?

It sounds to me as if you are saying that a skier's performance is determined by her equipment? Is it true then that you can only ski to a high standard on a top end ski? -I should say that I'm pretty certain that it is not true BTW.

I agree that
Quote:
The instructor needs to be the model
however "punters" turn up on "punter skis". What is the use in giving a lesson on GS skis when you are taking a group off piste? What is the use in turning up on GS skis when you are teaching plough parallel, or basic parallel skiing? There is absolutely no point in teaching someone basic carving on their all mountain ski when you are on a GS ski, or a downhill ski.

After reading your earlier (long) post, I'm really quite shocked by this one, as it has got to be one of the craziest posts I've seen!


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 3-06-15 19:25; edited 1 time in total
latest report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
@billy not a boy, @SkiPresto makes some valid points here and his long earlier post was most welcome. He referred to being on a BASI course; on my L2 the trainer skied 185 race dept GS skis for the full 2 weeks - this is the sort of person who will be judging you on a BASI course. How do you think they will judge the candidates who show up on twin tips or fat skis?
snow conditions
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
gra wrote:
@billy not a boy, @SkiPresto makes some valid points here and his long earlier post was most welcome. He referred to being on a BASI course; on my L2 the trainer skied 185 race dept GS skis for the full 2 weeks - this is the sort of person who will be judging you on a BASI course. How do you think they will judge the candidates who show up on twin tips or fat skis?


I agree, his earlier post was very good and informative, it's this last one that I found issue with. This is about L1/L2 course, do you really think that an L1/L2 instructor will be teaching anything beyond beginners? (I should caveat this with ... talking about a recent L2 qualification holder)

Do you really think that a L1/2 instructor's students will benefit from the instructor rocking up on anything other than a SL or all mountain ski?

A trainer skiing on a GS ski throughout the course is completely different to a L2 course candidate skiing on a GS ski.
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
billy not a boy, The Rossignol Oversize model that SkiPresto recommended is a "punter ski".
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
3 people on my L1 course showed up on fattish twin tips, all were told to change skis by the trainer.
latest report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rjs wrote:
billy not a boy, The Rossignol Oversize model that SkiPresto recommended is a "punter ski".


There is no mention of that ski recommendation in the post to which I am referring.
snow conditions
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
For the record:The Din Setting story was taken from when I skied in the Verbier High-Five a few years ago and Didier Cuche was in the starting line right in front of me. I had a look at his amazing skis afterwards, and they were specially made for him with huge springs in the bindings. It was definitely a talking point with us mortals for days afterwards.

One more thing: Let's keep this discussion around the equipment for L1 & L2 subject, leaving out the personal comments. Thanks. And the subject is "Skis for BASI L1 & L2" (assessments - not for teaching the public). Contributors here should try to read the theme and not mix up their replies by confusing the Assessment with the teaching job.

Slalom Skis are for special slalom.
The story about "wee slalomy skis" is that any ski instructor can carve a short turn on a slalom ski, as my earlier anecdote illustrated, and make tramlines on hero snow.
Why you need a long sidecut radius ski
It is impossible to carve a turn that is a bigger radius than the s/c radius of the ski. "Wee Slalomy skis" are 11m s/c radius. Rec GS are 18-23m s/c radius.
Old cut GS skis, or Oversize GS skis must be used to properly carve at the top of the turn and tighten the arc during the turn. All-Mountain skis are too fat and don't provide the versatility of a 18m-22m Recreational GS cut ski. Advanced "Long Radius" turns start long and tighten up - then lengthen out again.

L2 Standard
People turning up for L2 Tech courses should be excellent skiers, and ready for some advanced skiing. They should be on fully-prepped kit. Not "Punter Kit " from the rental shop.
(Although there is a good story about a colleague of mine who hired skis in Alpe d'Huez, passed his Eurotest on the first run).
L2 is a serious exam. You will not turn up and pass without being stretched
Candidates on BASI L2 need skis that are up to the job. That means long s/c radius, and an edge that touches the snow from tip to tail - rather than some of the ridiculous flapping planks some folks use these days - complete with rooster-tailing their scootin's into the face of the unfortunate following skier.

GS ski Offpiste
I quite often ski my GS race skis offpiste.
Top Performance
It is impossible to do a top-end high speed carve turn on hard snow to even L2 standards on skis that are not prepared to the best you can manage.
Anyone who turns up for L2 on badly prepared kit may as well affix a sticker to their head saying "I'm not ready for this - please don't let me pass!".

L2 Teaching anything but beginners?

Absolutely you will. It happened to me all the time. Expert skiers come to learn, because they know what they don't know. Actually, I was caught out on my stupid park twintips once in Nevis Range when I thought I had an hour off. I was called in to teach, but couldn't get my good skis. The client was an expert skier in a private lesson. It was icy conditions and I realized that the customer was on the point of out-skiing me. I worked hard for my pay that day.
ski holidays
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
SkiPresto wrote:

Why you need a long sidecut radius ski
It is impossible to carve a turn that is a bigger radius than the s/c radius of the ski. "Wee Slalomy skis" are 11m s/c radius.


That fits the description of the 138cm skis I've just bought for my (admittedly tall for his age) 7 year old!



Perhaps I should borrow his and adjust the bindings. NehNeh NehNeh NehNeh Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin (Just joking!)[/url]
snow report
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
gra wrote:
@billy not a boy, @SkiPresto makes some valid points here and his long earlier post was most welcome. He referred to being on a BASI course; on my L2 the trainer skied 185 race dept GS skis for the full 2 weeks - this is the sort of person who will be judging you on a BASI course. How do you think they will judge the candidates who show up on twin tips or fat skis?


If he judged them purely on what skis they use rather than how they use them, he's a lady's front bottom and shouldn't be running the courses.

sarah wrote:
3 people on my L1 course showed up on fattish twin tips, all were told to change skis by the trainer.


That's very disappointing, unless the candidates were poor enough skiers to not manage the fairly low level skiing required for L1 on them. Twins are ideal for slowly snowploughing around, and skiing backwards is very useful when teaching beginners.

Is no-one else at all concerned (maybe the wrong word) that so much of instructor training is purely focussed on onpiste skiing and carving firm snow? It's quite well referenced on here that some (reportedly excellent) instructors like Easiski take clients offpiste early on; surely more emphasis on all conditions skiing would produce better and more-rounded instructors and skiers?
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
duncan wrote:
I passed BASI 1 at Tamworth last Friday. 35 hours shadowing then onwards to BASI 2. The Head Magnums were perfect - looking forward to getting much more use out of them.


That's absolutely brilliant, Duncan. What was it like? Could you use GS type skis given the cramped conditions?
Now you've started bring on the L2!
What advice would you give your self of 2 months ago?
D.C. Very Happy
latest report
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

Candidates on BASI L2 need skis that are up to the job. That means long s/c radius, and an edge that touches the snow from tip to tail -

Interesting point, I fully agree with the earlier point that a SL ski of 11m radius is simply too short to demo any modulation of edge angle during the turn, but the question is, is this really of concern at L1/L2? Probably the top L2 ski at the moment is the Head Magnum, which IIRC has a rad of around 13m so far from the long rad suggested by @SkiPresto. I believe the 16-18m rad is more relevant for L3+, i.e. not the subject of this thread.
I also recall some advice (from New Gen - not sure on that) suggesting 12-16m piste skis - not cheater race skis - for L1/2 and then 16-18m cheater GS type for L3+. As the lower levels may struggle to drive the longer and higher performance/stiffer skis in the bumps/ variables
snow report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi @gra I read what you said. And it makes sense for skiers who are learning on the job so to speak.

However, I think that good strong skiers should be skiing above L2 standard before starting doing BASI exams. Unless they are very young, but they are normally the strong ones skiing since childhood.
I would advise anyone looking for advice to go for the higher capability ski. That way, you won't have to modify your skiing when the limitations of the kit kick in.
I would say to aspirant ski teachers: Learn to ski. Take performance lessons. Learn to race GS. Then think about doing BASI exams.
latest report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
However the BASI money machine would make very little money if that were the case....
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
SkiPresto The course was great fun and I know my skiing standard improved.

Using GS skis at Tamworth for L1 would have been a struggle - not enough room and too many people.

The advice I'd give myself 2 months ago would be exactly the same as given to me by various snowheads answering my original question: piste performance skis, ~75mm underfoot, s/c turn rad 13 - 17m. I was lucky and got a good deal on a pair of Head Magnums and they were perfect and should see me through for all that I hope to do with BASI.

Several candidates turned up with Tamworth rental skis. They coped ok, but advice was given that their performance would be improved with better kit.

Finally, I'm not sure I agree with your statement that people should be skiing above L2 before starting BASI. In simple terms, you only need to be able to ski at (or slightly above) the level you are trying to pass. As stated by earlier posters, some people are content to teach only in the UK and never want to get further than L1. Others will want to grow and the BASI system seems to cater for that with development programmes. Personally, I thought I was in the former group but, now I've had some expert advice on my skiing ability and level, I now have an ambition to complete L2 next season, even though I do not expect to teach abroad.
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
clarky999 wrote:
gra wrote:
@billy not a boy, @SkiPresto makes some valid points here and his long earlier post was most welcome. He referred to being on a BASI course; on my L2 the trainer skied 185 race dept GS skis for the full 2 weeks - this is the sort of person who will be judging you on a BASI course. How do you think they will judge the candidates who show up on twin tips or fat skis?


If he judged them purely on what skis they use rather than how they use them, he's a lady's front bottom and shouldn't be running the courses.

sarah wrote:
3 people on my L1 course showed up on fattish twin tips, all were told to change skis by the trainer.


That's very disappointing, unless the candidates were poor enough skiers to not manage the fairly low level skiing required for L1 on them. Twins are ideal for slowly snowploughing around, and skiing backwards is very useful when teaching beginners.

Is no-one else at all concerned (maybe the wrong word) that so much of instructor training is purely focussed on onpiste skiing and carving firm snow? It's quite well referenced on here that some (reportedly excellent) instructors like Easiski take clients offpiste early on; surely more emphasis on all conditions skiing would produce better and more-rounded instructors and skiers?


Whilst twin tips are good for snow ploughing and skiing backwards like you mention they will hinder a student doing the performance strands of the course and I would hazard that is why they were asked to change.

What makes you think BASI instructor training is purely focused on on-piste and carving? L2 onwards includes variable snow and bumps, we also spent time in the half pipe on my L2.
latest report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
kitenski wrote:
What makes you think BASI instructor training is purely focused on on-piste and carving? L2 onwards includes variable snow and bumps, we also spent time in the half pipe on my L2.
We spent a bit of time in the park on my L2 - quite a steep learning curve for me! We had great snow for the 2nd week of the course and spent a lot of time off piste, and although the group was quite strong the Trainer pushed us very hard. To this day I don't think I've skied anything steeper than I did that week.
snow report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
clarky999 wrote:
It's quite well referenced on here that some (reportedly excellent) instructors like Easiski take clients offpiste early on; surely more emphasis on all conditions skiing would produce better and more-rounded instructors and skiers?
I don't think I know an instructor who would voluntarily stay on piste if they had a group which could benefit from skiing off-piste - from a purely selfish point of view its going to be more enjoyable for the instructor to ski off piste. But as I'm not paid to ski terrain that I want to be on I think it's important to put the client's needs first. Often a piste will offer a better environment for developing skills and I see little benefit in taking clients off piste if they are going to fail on a a large proportion of their turns. It will (a) encourage survival skills which might well be bad habits, and (b) will destroy their confidence to tackle off piste when what you want to do is build it up. Is there any point in challenging a skier in tricky off piste snow if they aren't able to balance effectively on their skis at the start of a turn when they are on piste?

Last season I had some great days doing introductory work off-piste with some of my groups, and while there were moments when I pushed them outside of their comfort zone I think it was for their benefit. I was also able to provide a valuable lesson that falling over when off-piste is nothing to be ashamed of, when I double ejected and did a full Superman into a trench which was carefully disguised by a metre of fresh snow. Oh, how we all laughed... Confused
snow conditions
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar wrote:
I was also able to provide a valuable lesson that falling over when off-piste is nothing to be ashamed of, when I double ejected and did a full Superman into a trench which was carefully disguised by a metre of fresh snow. Oh, how we all laughed... Confused


+1
latest report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
SkiPresto wrote:
...Could you use GS type skis given the cramped conditions?


Hi Dave, I don't see much call for using GS skis in the UK's short snowdome runs, as you never go fast enough to use them properly, and SL skis are a lot better suited to performance development in the limited space available. All-round/piste skis like the Magnum are very suitable too, as Duncan has proven (well done!), with the advantage of being easier to manage during non carving based skiing e.g. L1 demos, basic freestyle, bumps.
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
kitenski wrote:


Whilst twin tips are good for snow ploughing and skiing backwards like you mention they will hinder a student doing the performance strands of the course and I would hazard that is why they were asked to change.

What makes you think BASI instructor training is purely focused on on-piste and carving? L2 onwards includes variable snow and bumps, we also spent time in the half pipe on my L2.


I may be wrong, but I'd be VERY surprised if you need to demonstrate such high performance at L1 that you can't do it on most skis - and remember there are plenty of twins out there designed to carve up icy pipe walls etc.

Sorry, didn't mean to say purely, but it seems like the VAST majority of emphasis is on high performance onpiste skiing.
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
clarky999 wrote:
Sorry, didn't mean to say purely, but it seems like the VAST majority of emphasis is on high performance onpiste skiing.
I think the emphasis is on performance skiing. You are expected to to ski to a standard on and off piste, showing good movement patterns, the ability to adapt your skiing, ski with precision, etc, etc. Surely performance skiing is performance skiing, no matter where on the mountain you do it?
snow report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
It's quite well referenced on here that some (reportedly excellent) instructors like Easiski take clients offpiste early on; surely more emphasis on all conditions skiing would produce better and more-rounded instructors and skiers?
I don't think I know an instructor who would voluntarily stay on piste if they had a group which could benefit from skiing off-piste - from a purely selfish point of view its going to be more enjoyable for the instructor to ski off piste. But as I'm not paid to ski terrain that I want to be on I think it's important to put the client's needs first. Often a piste will offer a better environment for developing skills and I see little benefit in taking clients off piste if they are going to fail on a a large proportion of their turns. It will (a) encourage survival skills which might well be bad habits, and (b) will destroy their confidence to tackle off piste when what you want to do is build it up. Is there any point in challenging a skier in tricky off piste snow if they aren't able to balance effectively on their skis at the start of a turn when they are on piste?

Last season I had some great days doing introductory work off-piste with some of my groups, and while there were moments when I pushed them outside of their comfort zone I think it was for their benefit. I was also able to provide a valuable lesson that falling over when off-piste is nothing to be ashamed of, when I double ejected and did a full Superman into a trench which was carefully disguised by a metre of fresh snow. Oh, how we all laughed... Confused


I'll preface by saying that you certainly know more than me about this sort of stuff.

For sure, when you're working on developing a skill in the first instance groomers are better. I'm not sure that keeping even fairly early skiers almost exclusively onpiste is good for their long term development though, and it seems to be a fairly eurocentric view? If you don't take skiers into ungroomed snow until 6-7+ weeks into their learning, it's going to seem like a really big deal, and I wonder if this contributes to the intermediate plateau a lot of people get stuck on - pistes are normal skiing and offpiste is 'gnarly.' Exposing people to cut-up snow - no matter how gentle - early on would probably change this by forcing them to actually use the skis rather than just stand on them and slide them around.

It just seems like the Euro attitude is quite different to the American/Canadian one where it's all just skiing. That for sure has a lot to do with all the inbounds terrain there which we have much less of here. I think it has to be better for a skiers long term development?
snow conditions
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
clarky999 wrote:
I may be wrong, but I'd be VERY surprised if you need to demonstrate such high performance at L1 that you can't do it on most skis...
I agree. As I said earlier, if you don't have a pair designed for the "terrain" you'll be skiing indoors for an L1 assessment then just use a pair of the slope's rental skis (perhaps asking for a pair with the sharpest edges they have). For the level you are expected to ski at you will not be held back by skiing on a pair of easy rentals, and that's probably a better option than using a pair of skis designed for completely different terrain.
snow conditions
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
Sorry, didn't mean to say purely, but it seems like the VAST majority of emphasis is on high performance onpiste skiing.
I think the emphasis is on performance skiing. You are expected to to ski to a standard on and off piste, showing good movement patterns, the ability to adapt your skiing, ski with precision, etc, etc. Surely performance skiing is performance skiing, no matter where on the mountain you do it?


Yeah, but there's no such thing as performance skiing offpiste on the skis recomended for the courses wink

Impressive and skilled *for the equipment* sure, but the caveat is always there. You simply can't use the terrain in the same way.

BUT lets stop there 'cos we sure as poo-poo don't need another fat vs skinny ski debate Laughing Laughing
latest report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
clarky999 wrote:
For sure, when you're working on developing a skill in the first instance groomers are better. I'm not sure that keeping even fairly early skiers almost exclusively onpiste is good for their long term development though, and it seems to be a fairly eurocentric view? If you don't take skiers into ungroomed snow until 6-7+ weeks into their learning, it's going to seem like a really big deal, and I wonder if this contributes to the intermediate plateau a lot of people get stuck on - pistes are normal skiing and offpiste is 'gnarly.' Exposing people to cut-up snow - no matter how gentle - early on would probably change this by forcing them to actually use the skis rather than just stand on them and slide them around.
I agree that having some experience of 'side of the piste' chop is a good thing to do when the skier is ready, and I think I did that with each group I taught in the Alps this season, except for pre-season glacier skiing. I guess there's a debate to be had about what is "ready" - for me it's when the skier can link round turns properly and be balanced on their skis from the beginning of the turn by using effective movements. Then you need the right terrain and the right snow. Those things don't always happen at the same time, but when they do spending some time developing confidence and tactics for skiing away from groomed runs seems like a good thing to me

clarky999 wrote:
It just seems like the Euro attitude is quite different to the American/Canadian one where it's all just skiing. That for sure has a lot to do with all the inbounds terrain there which we have much less of here. I think it has to be better for a skiers long term development?
I've not skied in North America, but from what I've read I think that's probably right. For my part I don't really distinguish between on piste and off-piste, at least from a technique point of view. It's just skiing. Obviously the more complex the terrain/snow you are skiing, the more your technique will need to be good enough to rise to the challenge. But that can be skiing fast, technically well, as much as it could be skiing off-piste in less than perfect snow.
snow report
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
clarky999 wrote:
Yeah, but there's no such thing as performance skiing offpiste on the skis recomended for the courses wink
I dunno, some of the off-piste skiing I've seen on BASI courses (on GS skis) has been genuinely amazing.

clarky999 wrote:
Impressive and skilled *for the equipment* sure, but the caveat is always there. You simply can't use the terrain in the same way.
It's nice to agree, and on this point I do. Different skis will be good at different things. All ski choice is a compromise.

clarky999 wrote:
BUT lets stop there 'cos we sure as poo-poo don't need another fat vs skinny ski debate Laughing Laughing
Spoilsport wink
snow conditions
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@rob@rar, I guess we're pretty much in agreement then.
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@clarky999, yup.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
Yeah, but there's no such thing as performance skiing offpiste on the skis recomended for the courses wink
I dunno, some of the off-piste skiing I've seen on BASI courses (on GS skis) has been genuinely amazing.


Crossing posts Laughing

Yeah I've seen some amazing skiers skiing really impressively offpiste on skinny skis, but as with the times I've seen amazing skiers skiing really impressively onpiste with fat skis, it's still not really 'high performance' in the context of what's possible with the right equipment.

I guess we're agreeing again Laughing
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
clarky999 wrote:
I guess we're agreeing again Laughing
Yup.
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
clarky999 wrote:
galpinos wrote:
@Masque

You don't half write some drivel. The point most people are making is that an instructor should turn up on skis that are appropriate to what they are teaching. This does not mean they can't ski on other skis, just that it is easier to demonstrate when you are appropriate skis for the job that are similar to that of the client.

If I turned up for a piste based lesson on 165 skinny slalom skis wanting to improve on tight carved turns and the instructor rocked up on 30m radius fat powder chargers I'd be pretty disappointed.

L1 seems to involve teaching beginners. Having a ski suitable for demonstrating those drills (and that will be suitable for further levels) seems sensible.


Frankly for teaching beginners and most up to around their third week of skiing a reasonably soft twintip is probably the most practical choice.


+1

When I attended the CSIA Level 3 training week (5 days) and exam (2 days) one of the attendees was on a pair of mid-fat Salomon twin tips.

With a real mix of snow conditions, terrain and simulated lessons over the week he was was on the best tool.

He flew through his ski assessment.
latest report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
I decided to consult my old Mentor Glenn Plake circa 1996/7 from Fistful of Moguls (1998).

http://youtube.com/v/WJzjPuKq_9M
Worth watching. All will be understood in 5 minutes.
Go to 40 seconds in to skip to his take on equipment.
Happy
Then at 5 minutes in - he lays out the "Sermon on the Mogul".
In those days we charged around the mountain on 2010 GS skis.

Plake:
Its time you know,....I mean uh....uh its time to say good bye to all the gimmicks.

You know a lot of people are having trouble skiing powder. It's, you know, so difficult. But, hell, there an answer for that... Get yourself some... some fat skis!

You know I'm having a hard time skiing powder and uh, I just uh, I don't know uh... You know its really difficult.....

No kidding it's difficult. It's, skiing's a difficult sport. But for $650 bucks go get yourself some tongue depressors to slide around on and guess what man? You're skiing powder. In fact you're chasing me around in powder! (:

The old carved turn. Nobody can carve a turn. You're not supposed to be able to carve a turn. That's like the sacred cow man. But for $650 bucks, go get yourself some hourglass skis and you'll out carve half the guys teaching skiing at Vail! (:

Everybody's that ever been to Squaw Valley has counted to three and hurled their bodies off Pallisades. Big Deal!

What is a big deal is mogul skiing. You don't buy it. You don't fake it. It's real. It's alive, and if you want to find the best skier on the mountain you might want to take a good hard look at who's skiing the bumps.

Sermon on the Bump:-

But moguls.....
Now there's something you do not buy. ...
You earn.
There's something you do not talk about in the bar about how bad ass your mogul run was....
'Cause everybody was there.
Everybody saw it.
It was right there under the chair. There's nothing to hide. There's nothing to buy that can help you.

You know what comes from skiing? Moguls. Moguls are a product of our sport. It's not something you've got to go spend a million dollars on building a little... little playing field. It just happens naturally.

Moguls are a fact of life now. Since all the extreme skiers are out extreme skiing everything's a bump run now. Corbert's Culoir: great mogul run. You know you see people jumping cliffs and cornices. I wonder if those people are skiing or do they just happen to have a pair of skis on?

Why - everyone says, "Well I don't ski moguls very much". Yeah, show me a mountain in America that isn't covered with moguls and I'll believe you. (:

We're coming at you Suckers! (:


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 4-06-15 20:33; edited 8 times in total
latest report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Q for the BASIites? Has there ever been any talk of allowing encouraging candidates to do off piste modules at higher levels on appropriate tools ( of at least the tools that are closer to what punter s are buying) rather than clinging to the macho 90s notion that a stiff GS ski is all real skiers need?

(after all I understand some leeway is given on the Mountain safety modules so people don't have to put touring bindings to their race plates)

And the CSIA anecdote above seems to align with what I've seen in the US where it wouldn't be uncommon to see Instructors on say a Rossi Exp88 in firm conditions and Soul 7s when it's softer ( for a resort with good Rossi hookups).
latest report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Dave of the Marmottes, noone is skiing on GS boards for the off piste modules as all are on touring setups. Very little of your "skiing" is assessed on the MS courses, although you gotta keep up with the group and ski some pretty tough lines and occasionally gun it a bit. On my EMS training course there were some good falls from some excellent skiers (sub 50 FIS pointers)
latest report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Of the Braehead based instructors I ski with, and who took their L2 this season, 2 were on recreational SL skis and 2 on were 80-85mm all-rounders e.g. Rossi Exp83. All passed and I didn't hear any negative feedback regarding their ski selection, so yes the there is room for personal preference.
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
IMHO : BASI assessment is very biased towards piste performance (based on race skiing technique)
Always seemed short sighted to me - as these days most punters in resorts want to learn how to shred pow on fat skis Wink

However : I think it makes sense.
A ski instructor needs to use the 3 turning elements (edge, pressure, rotate).
On a ski > 85mm it is becomes hard to demonstrate, or asses, clean edge control.
Especially getting towards L3 they are looking for you to make clean carves with demonstrable inclination and separation.
These skills are much easier to demonstrate on a pair of piste-performance or race skis.

I agree with the above comments that good skiing is "good skiing".
However there is also more to skiing than just pure carving on prepared surfaces.
Off piste the turns are primarily often rotational in nature, rather than carved.
However this style of skiing is not really what BASI are looking for - so if you are going to get "BASI-ed" it is easier to do what they ask Wink

Indeed one of the reasons I went back to doing BASI L3 (age 35) is because in the last decade I had become something of a "fat ski commando".
Learning / adapting to the criteria has been good for my skiing.

Quote:
Has there ever been any talk of allowing encouraging candidates to do off piste modules at higher levels on appropriate tools


I know Jimmy Lister (long standing BASI trainer) has proposed that candidates can use multiple pairs of skis for the technical exams at L3 and L4.
Using GS skis in variables is a little dumb - you can get by, but better tools exist.
However most people use GS skis on BASI courses as these are the only tools you would probably pass the piste criteria on.
snow conditions



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy