 Poster: A snowHead
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@Haggis_Trap, thanks it's always mystified me why when it seems that most rec skiers aspire to build up to killing it in the gnar gnar or the park rather than racing gates the emphasis is biased towards perfect groomer carves. For instance the modern customer is just as likely to be interested in stomping rock drops or flipping off a rail as they are in offset gates.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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( not that I don't get the point that performance longs and shorts are fundamentals).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is there anything stopping a candidate choosing a different pair of skis each day?
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Hi Haggis Trap! 
| Quote: |
| Using GS skis in variables is a little dumb |
No kidding. It's sick! It's very satisfying when it works, though.
"Tongue Depressors" (big fat straight boards) allow you to skite along on the surface.
On the contrary, though, with GS skis you have to ski in 3D, with diving and rising in the deep. Good skiers should be able to do this.
It's a bit slower, but you get to enjoy every moment strung out in slow motion.
I recommend using soft-flex Factory GS Skis. You get them from the Junior team coaches.
Ski them long enough and you can ski all over the mountain.
Then on piste they rule.
When I say "GS" skis that I currently use, I mean Women's 23m soft-flex 185cm skis. Not concrete-flex 35m 195cm Men's World Cup monsters.
I have a pair of these too and they are indeed awesome. Frightening. You have to work up to them, and really, they are only safe in a race lane. They don't bend unless the speed is sufficient.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 6-06-15 12:11; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Better to be in than on, so to speak 
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| Better to be in than on, so to speak |
Yeah but it's typical reactionary bollux/trolling not based on any reality. If it were true you could get up late on a powder day and not worry about sloppy seconds. Or maybe it's only the rad GS boys making first chair?
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Nothing to do with me, guv
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I don't know about that, but personally I'm going narrower for my off piste \ pow ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, I don't know about that, but personally I'm going narrower for my off piste \ pow ski. |
It's rather good fun
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@masque The organisation to which @masque refers there is a members organisation. There's nothing "Corporate" about it.
I think everyone can see that "Masque" has no relevant experience with which to validate the posts, amusing and provocative as they are no doubt intended to appear.
D.C.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 6-06-15 0:25; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Masque wrote: |
1: When looking at the organisation overall they could barely organise an orgy in a brothel, not withstanding a verbose and obtuse (even by my standards) training program that does meet a 'standard'.
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Every BASI course I have done has been excellent, worthwhile and delivered in a professional manner...
Ignore the small noisy army of moaning cohorts on the BASI fb page
IMHO BASI generally do a fantastic job, for a small organisation.
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^^^^ well said Haggis 😊
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You know it makes sense.
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It looks like we're done here but in conclusion: To explain some terminology I've used. "Cheater GS" skis are not necessarily for the inexperienced skier. For example : The Rossignol Hero LT Titanium 184cm is for expert skiers to ski all over the mountain.
In BASI, you need a very good piste ski, that will hold on ice like a race GS ski, but it needs its wider plan profile to give the support in variables. Also, they'll perform well at much slower speed than the full-on race kit.The American slang name for these skis is "Beer League GS".
As for trying to use a quiver of different skis on a BASI course? Its impractical, because the trainer is forever changing the plans during the day. Certainly- try different options like this on training courses. But assessment weeks are full-on and in practice there wouldn't be time to change skis.
You'd need a "Caddy" to follow you around with spare skis like a championship golfer needs a bag carrier.
In an assessment, there's generally a window where everyone knows that the next run is "This is it". Changing skis on the move isn't really an option. Different skis (even of the same type) need a run or two to get used to them. You won't have/ be given that luxury.
Even having to change to spare skis after a breakage is difficult, and you can get left behind or miss the group while they are assessing.
(Written from experience)
D. C.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We are talking about skis for L1 and L2, not the L3 or L4 tech exam. Cheater GS skis are not needed and unless the candidate is a strong skier could hurt there chances, especially if the course is done in a dome.
I go back to my original recommendation of 14-17M radius 75-80 ish underfoot. The Head super shape series is a good place to start looking.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@skimottaret I agree with this ^^ We have got past the L1 stage in this discussion.
| Quote: |
| Cheater GS skis are not needed and unless the candidate is a strong skier |
I wouldn't recommend weak skiers to go for assessments at all!
Surely, skiers need to be strong no matter what level they are going for.
Is it only in Britain that weak skiers think they should become ski teachers?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
I wouldn't recommend weak skiers to go for assessments at all!
Surely, skiers need to be strong no matter what level they are going for.
Is it only in Britain that weak skiers think they should become ski teachers? |
I understood that BASI courses were sold as Training and Assessment.
It's hard to know what you are suggesting here. Perhaps it should be like the Italian system where you have to pass a GS speed test (and Super G on the last selection I watched) before starting your instructor training ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask that skiers attending L2 training are already comfortable skiing anywhere on the mountain at a reasonable pace (including off piste crud, 6 week old moguls etc)
L1 is a strange thing in itself, necessary as a stepping stone but technically at a level where people can pass it with very little experience.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask that skiers attending L2 training are already comfortable skiing anywhere on the mountain at a reasonable pace (including off piste crud, 6 week old moguls etc)
L1 is a strange thing in itself, necessary as a stepping stone but technically at a level where people can pass it with very little experience.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
It's hard to know what you are suggesting here. Perhaps it should be like the Italian system where you have to pass a GS speed test (and Super G on the last selection I watched) before starting your instructor training ? |
On the contrary. What's hard about understanding that skiers should feel that they need to be really good at it before they try to to teach?
The statement was made that at L2, a good sharp Cheater GS or similar expert's ski would be too much for a weak candidate in a ski instructor assessment.
Is it ridiculous or incomprehensible that weak candidates should learn to ski strongly before turning up for assessment?
Skiers who are weak or inexperienced should become strong skiers. They should take lessons at a ski school, they should learn to ski.
In the same way as school teachers learn the subject at university and then learn to teach.
Ski teachers need to be outstandingly good skiers. As for the race training - I can recommend it as an.excellent way of understanding how skis work, and how to control the speed and line.
Skiers who can use and control their skis at good speed are safer than skiers who cannot.
There's nothing controversial about that.
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| Quote: |
| Ski teachers need to be outstandingly good skiers. |
Really ? Most (but not all) ski teaching is just beginner snow ploughs on the nursery slope ?
For this you need to be a patient / enthusiastic teacher of decent, rather than outstanding, ski ability.
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OK @haggistrap. I really don't want to argue with you because I know you from years ago, and I basically agree with you.
However, I would say that an inspiring ski teacher will- in a finish form demo - inspire and show what the purpose of that snowplough is.
I don't go along with the theory that beginners should only be taught to snowplough by skiers who only learned that themselves a week or so previously.
People learn by picking up unspoken clues from the demo. So the demo needs to be expertly done.
As we know, the snowplough is so fundamental and its form and function shines through all levels of skiing that it is better taught by a really good skier.
The hills are seemingly crowded with duffer skiers. We need to sell the benefits of lessons much more effectively. We are failing to achieve that.
Maybe it's because the instructors need to teach the progression better, and maybe our instructors of beginners need to be better, more experienced skiers.
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The hills are alive with duffer skiers because most people just don't get enough skiing in to really breakthrough. You can easily measure this in the Alps by comparing average standard on a Saturday when its locals and keen weekend warriors and a Sunday when the one or two weeks a year holidaymakers turn up.
I think people understand the benefits if lessons it's just that the majority are time poor, have had patchy experiences ( not I would say from the BASI led schools) and are reluctant to invest in being patronised or overstretched when they are going to forget it all without consolidation time. It's why I think InsideOut is a brilliant model because their clients really move on. I suspect it also explains the commercial popularity of Warren Smith, Snow works, BASI Bete Noire Simon Butler etc etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@SkiPresto, so you're saying that aspiring instructors should ski to a significantly higher standard than the assesments require before doing BASI 1 and 2? Because you can basically rephrase that as the standards to pass L1/2 are too low to be a competent instructor...
For BASI1 that's possibly not all that controversial - the idea of an instructing qualification that doesn't let you teach on a mountain seems pretty pointless really. Is there any reason why BASI2 isn't/shouldn't be the first step? A la the Austrian Anwärter (though plenty of poor skiers pass that too).
I disagree that instructors need to be outstanding skiers - the vast majority of lessons are teaching such new skiers that they're frankly pretty easily impressed, for a start, and teaching ability is way more important.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Yep, I think you're more or less on the money (as it were) there.
If you only ski one week a year,
a. you aren't going to invest in "boring" lessons and
b. why would you expect to be able to do any demanding skilled physical activity if you only practised it once a year. WUOld anyone expectto be competent at tennis (an activity I find infinitely more difficult than skiing) by only playing 6 days a year?
So I think unrealistic expectations also modify the process.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If the UK didn't have a proliferation of artificial slopes then L2 may well have remained the first rung of BASI qualification, as was the case when i started out. A ten day training course got you a log book and trainee status, then a five day assessment for a Grade 3 licence (later renamed L2).
L2 does still require a decent level of skiing from what I've seen, certainly good enough to deliver excellent beginner and intermediate lessons.
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Agree. L2 is a good standard, and can be used in some capacity everywhere on globe.
Even france with tt.
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You know it makes sense.
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Back to skis...
I assume you have read the blurb and so know what you are supposed to be able to do and where?
If so; find a ski that YOU like and allows you to do what is needed and use that.
L1 Piste oriented skis are best.
L2 fairly Piste; when I did my 2; there was a varity of skis; from Cheater SL skis (A la Salomon 24hrs, Atomic ST); fatter pisteish skis with around 80 under foot (Salomon Tornado's), Some FIS SL 165 some 155's (ladies) and a few on various other bits of kit.
Pass rate did not relate to a particular brand or type of ski; those that were good enough passed.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| On the contrary. What's hard about understanding that skiers should feel that they need to be really good at it before they try to to teach? |
Except that it's entirely subjective. I doubt many pitch up at L1 thinking they are rubbish, but I expect that they do understand that they have a lot to learn. If they are not up to 'the level' they fail but go away with a much better idea of whats required.
The crux here is that BASI currently has a multi level system. Instructors start at L1 and work through. During that process their understanding and personal skiing improves. The SSE coaching scheme is good in this regard as the aspirant Instructor usually hooks up with a mentor coach who works with them on their personal skiing and teaching.
If however BASI actually operates a single level system then you have a point
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Poster: A snowHead
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The Lad did 1, 2 and 3 on the same pair of Elan SLX (stiff race slalom). He even did 3 teach and tech in rental boots after accidentaly leaving his CEM fitted boots in a taxi on the first day!
The Lass did 1 and 2 in both Alpine and Adaptive on the female version of the same ski.
I think there is ample opportunity to over-think the ideal ski!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Saw this from New Gen's Alessandro Cambon : How to become a Ski Instructor: The Level 2
Doesn't specify the type of ski, but it does communicate the level of prep required for L2
Useful Tips like:-
| Quote: |
| Get used to skiing on a sharp ski. It is important to keep your skis sharp regularly through the season during training. Do not just service your skis the day before the exam. It might work against you and actually make you ski worst because you are not used to it. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@SkiPresto, check out their blog , they recommend the Nordica spitfire ti for men (r=15.5m) and atomic cloud 11 for women, for BASI L1/2.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've tried to stay focused on the original point of this thread and it seems the Head iSupershape Magnums are getting the nod. The reviews elsewhere on the web are equally encouraging so I think they are the skis for me. They will probably complement my All Mountain Motive 86s. There appears to be very limited stock in the UK and in Europe and what is there is holding up in price. However, I've found a pair of 177s at £353 (40% discount) and it is too much of good deal to pass it up. I'll make a final decision in the morning. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Gaza, I believe the Magnum is a bit softer than the Titan, how much do you weigh?
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A few recommendations for L1/L2 from some of the well established instructor training / gap course providers:
- Snoworks: Salomon 24hrs max
- BASS pro training: Volkl Code Speedwall (S or L)
- ICE Val d'Isere: Salomon X-Race or X-Drive
- NewGen: Nordica Spitfire TI (men) / Atomic Cloud 11 (women)
Plus the recommednations from Lee Townend in BASI News issue 110 (Jul 2013):
- L1/L2: Head Magnum, Salomon 24 Hrs max, Rossi pursuit 16 Ti, K2 AmpBolt MX14, Dynastar CR72 pro.
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@kitenski, I havent skied the latest models but the Rally is defo softer than the Magnum, Have you had a go at the current magnums and titans? Curious as to which is the stiffest ski of the current bunch.
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@skimottaret, nope I ended up going with a cheater GS type ski that is significantly stiffer and longer than my Titan!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm 183cm and 98kg. The reviews I've read of the Magnum suggested it is quite stiff.
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@Gaza, can you test at all? From what I know and have just read on the Head website this years Titan is maybe a bit more versatile and a touch wider underfoot...
I passed my L2 on a Titan, the feedback from the instructor near the end was that I was over skiing it and it was too soft for me, I'm 178cm and was about 80kg then I think.
This is what the Head site says about the Titan:
Speed fast
Skill top skiers
Terrain versatile: 70% groomed slopes, 30% off piste
Style excellent skiing technique
Whereas the Magnum it says:
Speed superfast
Skill top skiers
Terrain groomed slopes
Style excellent skiing technique
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FAQ
, that's you off the Xmas card list . . . but I am good at expanding the debate 
