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Airbags - Interesting read

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Not sure if this has already been posted but it's an interesting read.

Who, what, why: How do airbags protect against avalanches?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-31357688

Still slightly concerning that the guides put 12 people at risk, and thoughts go to the guy who sadly passed away.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dzmarc Not sure how you mean that the gudes put 12 people at risk. They got it wrong on that particular occasion, but that's just an issue of chance. All the knowledge they have reduces the chances of getting into a bad situation, but no more than that. The 12 people presumably chose to get taken off piste, and I see no indication that the guides acted carelessly.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There is not enough information in the article to pass serious comment, as it was about the use of airbags rather than Avalanche risk at the time. But it must have been a big one, or unusual situation to hit all of them.

I have to say that these days when an avalanche incident is reported, my first reaction is 'Did their airbags go off?''. The use of airbags and helmets is open to debate. Are they perfect, no. Will they make a incident worse, unlikely. Will they 'contribute' to an incident through perceived protection, possibly. Are you better off using them, probably.
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After re reading it I was probably wrong about the whole guide thing jumped to conclusions, just my initial reaction.

PowderAdict wrote:
Are you better off using them, probably.


Would be interesting to see if people took greater risks in using them, instead of trusting their ability and brain.
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Two very sensible and readable pieces about the effectiveness and additional risk taking (aka risk homeostasis).

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/1004-avalanche-airbags-training-and-risk-homeostatis/

http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth
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PowderAdict wrote:
There is not enough information in the article to pass serious comment, as it was about the use of airbags rather than Avalanche risk at the time. But it must have been a big one, or unusual situation to hit all of them.


The article says it was a small slide.

Quote:

I have to say that these days when an avalanche incident is reported, my first reaction is 'Did their airbags go off?''. The use of airbags and helmets is open to debate. Are they perfect, no. Will they make a incident worse, unlikely. Will they 'contribute' to an incident through perceived protection, possibly. Are you better off using them, probably.


If you are skiing above trees, or cliffs, or in trees your airbag may well make the incident worse because you get taken further with the flow. In the US where glade skiing is popular some guides advise to cover the handles in these conditions.

They are not so effective with large avalanches more common on risk 4 days but you'd likely be dead whatever you had bar a jetpack. You are better off with an airbag than just a beacon.

They don't work so well at the start of the season when the snowpack is thin, as you get killed by impacts with rocks.

Airbags work really well on open slopes without obstacles with runouts in typical risk 3 or lower days. That is medium size avalanches. That's what a lot of people are skiing so that is good but as Haegli says, the margin between being safer with an airbag and putting yourself into more danger is fairly thin so they have to be used intelligently.

Oh if you have deployed an airbag you've already made a big mistake.
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Steilhang wrote:
@Dzmarc Not sure how you mean that the gudes put 12 people at risk. They got it wrong on that particular occasion, but that's just an issue of chance. All the knowledge they have reduces the chances of getting into a bad situation, but no more than that. The 12 people presumably chose to get taken off piste, and I see no indication that the guides acted carelessly.


I can't imagine why anyone would go off piste skiing in a group of 12. I would not be fun. I would also consider it as an unnecessary increase to the risk of problems: avalanche or otherwise.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
if the theory of air bags is 'make yourself bigger' then presumeably wearing a big rucsac filled with light clothing should help Puzzled
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@Peter S, it would have to be a pretty big rucksack! have u seen the size of an inflated airbag?!
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@Peter S, yes, it would help a little. Advice used to be to try and jettison a rucksack if you were caught in a slide, latest advice is not to do so as a normal pack makes you slightly larger and provides a small amount of protection. Plus you may need the contents of the bag to help rescue others (shovel, probe etc).
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Nigel Sheperd comment - unable to reach handle is an issue. I like the look of the new Black Diamond/Pieps with rechargeable battery. 4 inflates per battery charge, so one can play with it.
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12? As someone said you can never tell much from news stories - if you've ever been involved in anything which was reported, you'll understand how wildly wrong they can be about every single salient fact. In text books and boy scout manuals it doesn't happen, but the real world isn't like that. They're dealing with a compromise between different types of risk.

These days a Bell 212 usually runs with a group of 10 guests and two guides. CMH lost 9 in Bay Street around 1992 - they rode with groups of 11 and one guide then. Check the legal details if you care about it. With hindsight they should have ridden that one by one, although that introduces other risks.
--

Although air bags have been less popular in north America, you see lots of European heli people using them there. There's no suggestion from the industry that people should not use them, even in the trees. Some heli operators provide customers with air bags. There's a view that probably they'll be compulsory for workers soon, a bit like helmets effectively are. That is not to say that such a change would be evidence based, it's the way these things work.

As some people have said, I'd certainly not be planning on getting into a slide, what with all those cliffs and trees out there.
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@colinstone, When i first got my airbag I used to fit the safety strap over the trigger handle and practice grabbing it while skiing difficult ground as soon as the thought hit my head. It really does become an automatic reflex as long as you keep practicing the grab. The one time a crack shot out and a tiny localised slide took my feet out from under me I found that I had my hand locked onto the handle just as my shoulder hit the slope. I deliberately didn't pull it though as I knew by the terrain and the size of the crack that this was likely to be a very small slide, but if I had been carried away any further I would have deployed it. Quite an unusual situation to be in, looking over the vid later was interesting as I missed an obvious clue as the terrain looked so safe.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
philwig wrote:
12? As someone said you can never tell much from news stories - if you've ever been involved in anything which was reported, you'll understand how wildly wrong they can be about every single salient fact.


Yes according to the press I got the highest degree mark in the 550 year history of Glasgow University. Okay I did well but I was only second top in my class. So go figure.

This is how is came about.

Reporter: I heard that you couldn't get a job as a bin man because you didn't get an english O-grade (o-level in Scotland).
Me: No, I couldn't get in to do Physics at 17 so I got a job in a pub at 18.

Reporter: I heard you got the highest ever mark when you did biology later.
Me: No, I only got second top in my class.

Reporter: We'll print the more interesting stuff.
Me: no you won't.... print the truth.

Daily Record printed the nonsense.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
wink Sounds like the same people I've dealt with. I've been involved in rescues in UK and also abroad and whenever I read the press reports they were always describing something vaguely familiar but different in fundamental respects.

More recently in business journalists who I'm not paying seem to have already decided what I'm going to say before I say it.

I think that they already know the "narrative", but they need some partial truths to give them credibility to sell it. I'm not sure how much different they are from politicians: none of these people are evidence based. They start with the conclusion and then look for facts to support it... hardly scientific.

In rescues *every* journalist's conclusion was that people in the mountains are stupid, and that the tax payer funds them. The facts never fit, so they had to pick and choose from them.

--
Air-bag wise... I have used them when people gave them to me. I'll probably not mind it when they're the same size as a standard pack and when I don't have to worry about premature inflation. The Black Diamond stuff looks like the way forward.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Anyone tried an avalanche breathing assistance device?
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You mean an Avalung?

If so, I've seen people carry them, haven't seen any data to indicate how effective they may be. As always, wearing one in bed or anywhere else "can hardly make you less safe", of course.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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philwig wrote:
You mean an Avalung?

If so, I've seen people carry them, haven't seen any data to indicate how effective they may be. As always, wearing one in bed or anywhere else "can hardly make you less safe", of course.


Yes. Apparently they buried some guy in the snow with one and dug him up an hour or so later and he was ok apart from being bloody cold. Apparently, the vast majority of avalanche deaths are asphyxiation as the water vapour in the breath freezes over and blocked the air from permeating the snow. The avilung therefore makes perfect sense providing you can keep the airpiece near the mouth. I'm suprised someone's not invented a self levelled pole that shoots up out of the snow 1970's Ford Capri aerial style to locate the buried skier. I'm sure James Bond has one that flies Union Flag as it rises.
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cameronphillips2000 wrote:
philwig wrote:
You mean an Avalung?

If so, I've seen people carry them, haven't seen any data to indicate how effective they may be. As always, wearing one in bed or anywhere else "can hardly make you less safe", of course.


Yes. Apparently they buried some guy in the snow with one and dug him up an hour or so later and he was ok apart from being bloody cold. Apparently, the vast majority of avalanche deaths are asphyxiation as the water vapour in the breath freezes over and blocked the air from permeating the snow. The avilung therefore makes perfect sense providing you can keep the airpiece near the mouth. I'm suprised someone's not invented a self levelled pole that shoots up out of the snow 1970's Ford Capri aerial style to locate the buried skier. I'm sure James Bond has one that flies Union Flag as it rises.


Frozen vapour is an issue, but the real problem is CO2 build up in the air pocket around the mouth and nose, which causes asphyxiation. The avalung extracts the CO2 away from the mouth so allows the victim to breath the air that is available.

From reports I've read the big problem with the avalung is getting the tube into your mouth in time. If people have trouble pulling the trigger on an airbag I imagine it's much harder still to grab the avalung tube and get it in place and keep it there during a slide.
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Yes, it is a great theory, but I don't think there is evidence for it being effective in the real world, probably for the reasons stated. I have seen quite a lot of novice back country people with them, fewer experienced people.

My personal back country stuff includes lots of well trained people in close radio contact with helicopters, transceivers, shovels, and probes, so I'm not expecting to be buried long. I'm more concerned about the snow crushing every bone in my body, or being raked through the trees, or thrown off a cliff.
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This is an interesting article.

http://ravallirepublic.com/lifestyles/health-med-fit/article_a0b12a3a-237b-11e0-a516-001cc4c002e0.html
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If I was skiing in North America around large tree wells I'd definitely consider an avi lung. That is one situation where they may prove very useful.
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I think the asphyxiation rate in European fatalities is higher in Europe - nearer 87% which would make an avilung a very good investment indeed if skiing off piste.
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cameronphillips2000 wrote:
philwig wrote:
You mean an Avalung?

If so, I've seen people carry them, haven't seen any data to indicate how effective they may be. As always, wearing one in bed or anywhere else "can hardly make you less safe", of course.


Yes. Apparently they buried some guy in the snow with one and dug him up an hour or so later and he was ok apart from being bloody cold. Apparently, the vast majority of avalanche deaths are asphyxiation as the water vapour in the breath freezes over and blocked the air from permeating the snow. The avilung therefore makes perfect sense providing you can keep the airpiece near the mouth. I'm suprised someone's not invented a self levelled pole that shoots up out of the snow 1970's Ford Capri aerial style to locate the buried skier. I'm sure James Bond has one that flies Union Flag as it rises.


I think the way to use an Avalung is to stick it in your mouth whenever you are in dangerous territory. This is a sobering watch, but one where the device seems to have been used properly.


http://youtube.com/v/TH0qQRmAeAM
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Not sure why that video is supposed to be "sobering"... No avalanche occurred and the rider didn't even fall.
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Watch around the one minute mark there's a moderate slide that goes down the 'gully' just to his left that completely blankets the traversing track below them. The boarder then crosses the debris just below that track. Not easy to see but definitely there. Not sure it would have been a life threatening slide though.

whoops just noticed how old the thread is - apologies Embarassed
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Looks like just slough to me, the loose top layer of the snow sliding away. It's common in places like Alaska where there's steep terrain and loads of snow. Slough management is a very important part of skiing there, you can't avoid it sliding away you just have to make sure you don't get taken with it.
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