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Are my brand new boots drastically undersized?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi All,

Having read lots of threads on boot fitting in this forum; I'm worried about the fit of my newly purchased pair of size 27.5 Atomic Hawx 2.0 110 boots and was looking for some experience on the subject before i go back to Ellis Brigham Castleford to get them to look at them.

If any bootfitters come across this thread, here's a few details about me and my feett:
    Back of heel to tip of big toe when sitting 275mm
    Width from outer edge of ball of foot to outer edge pinky toe (widest measurement possible) 98-99mm
    I'm usually a 10.5 to 11 shoe size
    I've only used rental boots in the past


When I got them fitted about 3 weeks ago, the whole process took about 1hr. I was sized using a brannack-style foot measurement tool; and I wasn't told the measurements. I then tried on two boots that were recommended. First was a pair of salomon X pro 100 in i imagine the same size as the Atomic's I ended up buying, but they were painful to stand in so tried the Atomics, which were less painful.

The fitter (a lad in his early 20's) said that my toes will touch the ends of the boots, and will ease off as they begin to wear in. He also mentioned that adjustments to the boots are free, and that I should get an hour or two in at an indoor slope before going away to see how they are.

Fast forward a few weeks, i've been wearing the boots every now and then around the house, for an hour at a time, really noticing my big toe being firmly up against the inside edge of the liner. My feet did go a bit numb after 30-40mins when i was walking around the house, but i didn't think anything of it.

Yesterday i went with a friend to Castleford for 2 hours to try them out and i really struggled after 35-40mins. My feet went numb and i had pins and needles in both feet, from the front of my heel to my toes. So much so, that we had to stop for 10mins for me to get my feet out and rub them to stop the numbness. The pain was most noticeable when on the button lift. When skiing down, the pain alleviated somewhat, but as the slope is quite short, it wasn't much.

I'm now going to go back to castleford, and get them to take a look at my feet and boots. I'm prepared to buy moulded insoles as I had been using the standard insoles that came with the boot as the fitter said they were only of marginal benefit.

TL;DR
I bought some boots that i think might be too small for me ski boot size 27.5 for a person that normally wears a 10.5 to 11 size shoe. Boots bought from ellis brigham in castleford. Fitter took a short time fitting. Boots made both feet go numb and cold when trying them out at castleford indoor slope.

Are the boots too small?
Should I push for a refund and go somewhere more highly regarded?
What would you do in my situation?

Sorry for the wall of text.
Hopefully someone can help me decide what I should do.

Austin
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can't help with your boot query, @Austingeorge, but welcome to SHs. snowHead And somebody who can help will probably be along in a minute.
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Hi Austin. Why did you leave the shop with boots that hurt your feet? The things the fitter told you are not right at all. I have had many boot woes, am not an expert, though those in the know will be along shortly to help out. Hope you get sorted. In my mind, a refund would be most appropriate if the issues can't be resolved quickly. There are some good guys here, CEM is the most knowledgable.
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Waffle wrote:
Hi Austin. Why did you leave the shop with boots that hurt your feet? The things the fitter told you are not right at all. I have had many boot woes, am not an expert, though those in the know will be along shortly to help out. Hope you get sorted. In my mind, a refund would be most appropriate if the issues can't be resolved quickly. There are some good guys here, CEM is the most knowledgable.


Hi Waffle.

It's mostly because I've only had rentals in the past; and they've all been not that great of a fit. I know ski boots should be tight fitting, and I've been told that I've not had my boots tight enough in the past where i've tried to alleviate some pain.

Those factors along with that I don't have any experience of how a brand new new pair of boots should fit (which I had read should be a bit too tight. So that after some use, the liner packs down to a better fit? correct me if i'm wrong).

All in all, I just trusted my boot fitter to sort me out Puzzled

Austin


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 21-01-15 21:59; edited 1 time in total
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If you take the liner out of the boot and put your foot in with the toes just touching the front, how much space between your heel and the back of the shell?
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If you take the liner out of the boot and put your foot in with the toes just touching the front, how much space between your heel and the back of the shell?
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ansta1 wrote:
If you take the liner out of the boot and put your foot in with the toes just touching the front, how much space between your heel and the back of the shell?


I'll just check, give me 2mins
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If it matters, my big toe and little toe touch the front of the inside of the shell, and all my other toes don't.

With my toes pushed up against the front of the shell, I've got about 22mm of space. With my toes just lightly touching the front of the shell, i've got about 14mm of space.
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@Austingeorge, I've been in your position, know exactly how it feels and have gone through weeks on the slopes in agony. Good luck! You'll get good advice here Smile
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Austingeorge wrote:
....With my toes just lightly touching the front of the shell, i've got about 14mm of space.

That's perfect.

CEM can give you a run down of the foot width/shape/volume that the last of your boot is designed to fit but the boot could well be perfect for you & the issues you're having could well be down to the lack of a decent footbed to correct any pro/supination etc & to support your foot from 'spreading'. Lack of range of movement in your ankles &/or tight calf muscles can also have that effect.
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Go to the supermarket and buy some women's knee high tights. Wear them instead of ski socks until your liners pack out.

On a related note Killian Jornet posted a picture of himself on facebook recently wearing womens knee high tights, his skimo race boots are so tight that he always wears tights instead of socks.
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Another good tip is to buy silk ski liner socks from Decathlon. They are a little bit thicker than tights, but may well be ideal after the liners pack out a bit.
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spyderjon wrote:
Austingeorge wrote:
....With my toes just lightly touching the front of the shell, i've got about 14mm of space.

That's perfect.

CEM can give you a run down of the foot width/shape/volume that the last of your boot is designed to fit but the boot could well be perfect for you & the issues you're having could well be down to the lack of a decent footbed to correct any pro/supination etc & to support your foot from 'spreading'. Lack of range of movement in your ankles &/or tight calf muscles can also have that effect.


Ah, I thought it was 2 fingers width, which is more like 25-30mm?

Also, I know its a generalisation, but do you agree that a 27.5 size ski boot (what I currently have) could fit my feet (normally a 10.5-11 shoe size?)
Lots of conversion charts on the net show that a 29-30 size boot is more akin to a shoe size 10.5-11, and 27.5 is equivalent to a shoe size 9?
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Oceanic wrote:
Another good tip is to buy silk ski liner socks from Decathlon. They are a little bit thicker than tights, but may well be ideal after the liners pack out a bit.


Thanks Oceanic, I'll definitely give this a go when I'm next testing the boots
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
According to both the shell fit and your own measurements you have a boot which is the correct length. A size up will definitely be too big. The width of your foot is actually a bit narrower than the last size of the boot (100mm). So I very much doubt that this boot is too big. It might or might not be the perfect fit but the basic numbers look good.

If you want a performance fit in a relatively stiff boot then it is going to feel tight at first. After a a few days it should feel a lot better. If there are still one or two problem points, that's the time to get some adjustments made. Bear in mind that stretching or grinding a too-small boot is much easier and generally more successful than trying to pack out a too-large boot.

I have just broken in a new pair of racing boots. The first days were agony, but I expected that. At that point I had some more work done and they became bearable. After a few more days they are feeling pretty good. Just one pressure point left that might need a grind. But I want to give it a bit more time. If new boots feel perfect in the shop then in all likelihood they are too big, even allowing for thermal fit inner boots.

Of course if you don't want a performance fit you can go up a size they might feel lovely in the shop but after 20 days you will be swimming in them.

M
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hyperkub wrote:
According to both the shell fit and your own measurements you have a boot which is the correct length. A size up will definitely be too big. The width of your foot is actually a bit narrower than the last size of the boot (100mm). So I very much doubt that this boot is too big. It might or might not be the perfect fit but the basic numbers look good.

If you want a performance fit in a relatively stiff boot then it is going to feel tight at first. After a a few days it should feel a lot better. If there are still one or two problem points, that's the time to get some adjustments made. Bear in mind that stretching or grinding a too-small boot is much easier and generally more successful than trying to pack out a too-large boot.

I have just broken in a new pair of racing boots. The first days were agony, but I expected that. At that point I had some more work done and they became bearable. After a few more days they are feeling pretty good. Just one pressure point left that might need a grind. But I want to give it a bit more time. If new boots feel perfect in the shop then in all likelihood they are too big, even allowing for thermal fit inner boots.

Of course if you don't want a performance fit you can go up a size they might feel lovely in the shop but after 20 days you will be swimming in them.

M


The bold part has given me quite a bit of reassurance about the fit. Thanks for posting Smile
I've got a few areas in mind for when I get them adjusted. I'm starting to feel quite a bit better about the size since a lot of shoe size to boot conversion charts say I should be in a boot that is much bigger.
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@hyperkub, I feel your pain. Had that last year Happy - Race boots are a whole different kettle of fish rolling eyes Still it gave the the opportunity to take a trip to colin and by some comfier boots for on the mountain Happy
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Austingeorge wrote:

I bought some boots that i think might be too small for me ski boot size 27.5 for a person that normally wears a 10.5 to 11 size shoe.


You'll need to speak to someone in the flesh really. In general shells don't come in half sizes so your 27.5 boot might be a 27 boot (almost certainly way too small) or a 28 boot (maybe too small). If I were picking boots for someone with a 11 street shoe size I wouldn't be looking at anything under 28.5 and probably 29, officially you should be in a 29.5 or 30 boot.

Ok, I'll say it, your boots are too small and I doubt they'll every pack out enough to fit but that is perhaps a red herring. I would start by finding a shell that fits your foot volume and go from there.
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davidof wrote:
Austingeorge wrote:

I bought some boots that i think might be too small for me ski boot size 27.5 for a person that normally wears a 10.5 to 11 size shoe.


You'll need to speak to someone in the flesh really. In general shells don't come in half sizes so your 27.5 boot might be a 27 boot (almost certainly way too small) or a 28 boot (maybe too small). If I were picking boots for someone with a 11 street shoe size I wouldn't be looking at anything under 28.5 and probably 29, officially you should be in a 29.5 or 30 boot.

Ok, I'll say it, your boots are too small and I doubt they'll every pack out enough to fit but that is perhaps a red herring. I would start by finding a shell that fits your foot volume and go from there.


This is what i've found when looking at conversion charts. I know theyre to be taken with a pinch of salt, but 27.5 seems like its very far off the mark for a 10.5-11 shoe size like you said.

Should I be pushing for a new pair of larger boots in your opinion then?
Also, your opinion contradicts previous posts. Can you comment on that?

Thanks for posting.
Austin
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Hi Austin. I`ve just got my second pair of boots, having formerly had boots that were initially a bit numbing, then felt fine for 4 or 5 weeks, and then became loose and my heel began to lift. I am the same size as you,10 to 10.5, but sometimes need 11 for width. I tried the Hawks in 27.5, felt after wearing them at home that they were quite numbing ( I was seduced by their soft plastic ) took them back and swopped them. 27.5 in a Lange, for eg, is slightly larger. I have dropped a full size from my 1st boots, and have returned twice to have them stretched in the toe area; they are still a little numbing, but I now know from experience that they will pack out in the 1st week, and fit really snug for the rest of their life, unlike my first pair. When you put your foot in the shell, what is the movement/gap like across the boot, just back from the first buckle? You should have a small amount of movement; if you touch on both sides, you may need a bigger width last. I also have always had custom footbeds (high arch) If you have the width, go back, try the Hawks thermofit (they will heat up and stretch on foot a small amount), if no joy, have the toe section stretched where tight, and get the senior fitter to check if you need custom footbeds. Try stretching out your calves . EB should guarantee their fit, but a bigger, comfortable fit may not be a good fitting boot after 8 wks use. I also went to a thin race sock. Good luck.
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@Austingeorge, @cstreat, Dont forget that the Last (width) of a boot can be just as important and the length. A well fitted boot with custom insoles is a must
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Whatever you choose, stand in the shop for at least 45 mins in them, after fitting, in ski position.
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davidof wrote:
Austingeorge wrote:

I bought some boots that i think might be too small for me ski boot size 27.5 for a person that normally wears a 10.5 to 11 size shoe.


You'll need to speak to someone in the flesh really. In general shells don't come in half sizes so your 27.5 boot might be a 27 boot (almost certainly way too small) or a 28 boot (maybe too small). If I were picking boots for someone with a 11 street shoe size I wouldn't be looking at anything under 28.5 and probably 29, officially you should be in a 29.5 or 30 boot.

Ok, I'll say it, your boots are too small and I doubt they'll every pack out enough to fit but that is perhaps a red herring. I would start by finding a shell that fits your foot volume and go from there.


Boot shells are made on the half sizes. I.e. 25.5 26.5 27.5 28.5 and so on. Even sized boots generally have the same shell but a thicker liner. So a 28 actually has a a 28.5 shell.

If the OPs foot measures 275mm then the starting point should be 27.5 shells. Mondopoint sizing is a simple as it can get from that point of view. It's a direct measurement of length. The shell fit sounds fine. Even a size 28.5 will be too big and a 29 (which will have a 29.5 shell) will be HUGE. Terrible advice.

Most people buy ski boots which are too big. That's because they think they should be totally comfortable brand-new. That attitude will NEVER get you a pair of skiing boots which fit well in the long run. You have to accept that the boot will pack down. So you have to go a bit smaller than feels right. Then after a few days make some adjustments.

M
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@Austingeorge, the sizing of boots isn't very consistent and a size chart isn't very helpful. I'm a size 5.5, and used to have a pair of head boots in a 24.5. They had a shell gap of 25mm and left my feet numb and uncomfortable, because they were far too big once the liners packed out. According to size charts I should be in a mondo 25. I now have Lange alpine and Garmont touring boots which both fit, and have a very similar shell gap of about 15mm, though one is a 23.5 and the other a 24.5. Both are comfortable now that the liners have packed out and they've had a couple of tweaks. My boyfriend wears a size 8.5 street shoe and has 25.5 mondo ski boots, also comfortable. So we're both out by up to a size and a half relative to size charts. By extrapolation, a 10.5 could easily be in a 27.5.

From what you say about the shell gap, it sounds good, though I've no idea how the rest of the boot fits. It's worth the initial discomfort to get boots that fit right later. I do think it's worth going back to EB to get them to modify them, a good footbed helps a lot.
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davidof wrote:
Austingeorge wrote:

I bought some boots that i think might be too small for me ski boot size 27.5 for a person that normally wears a 10.5 to 11 size shoe.


You'll need to speak to someone in the flesh really. In general shells don't come in half sizes so your 27.5 boot might be a 27 boot (almost certainly way too small) or a 28 boot (maybe too small). If I were picking boots for someone with a 11 street shoe size I wouldn't be looking at anything under 28.5 and probably 29, officially you should be in a 29.5 or 30 boot.

Ok, I'll say it, your boots are too small and I doubt they'll every pack out enough to fit but that is perhaps a red herring. I would start by finding a shell that fits your foot volume and go from there.


sorry but i am not sure i have ever read so much tosh in one post as this ^^^^^

FORGET THE CONVERSION CHARTS THEY ARE WRONG
the amount of space in the shell is what is important, 14mm is nice BUT this depends on your foot shape, your biomechanics and a whole heap of other stuff. i can't believe the fitter told you that a footbed would make only a marginal difference, maybe custom made over off the shelf, but a decent footbed will make a massive difference over the carpet tile supplied with the boot, how are you clipping up the boot, upper buckles first and the ankle one really tight, then flex, this will pull your foot back, if you are starting at the front clip then your toes will be jammed at the front of the boot due to the mechanics of putting the boot on.

shoe sizes are a joke these days, i ha a client in the store yesterday who, when asked said he wore a size 8 1/2, put him on a uk brannock and he measured 10 1/4 go figure

without seeing your feet it is impossible to tell if they are right or wrong, if you have a large calf muscle or limited ankle joint flexion then it is likely that you will be pushed forward in the boot and they will never be right, but if that is all good and the foot shape is right for the boot then i would think they would be fine...but as i said you need to do this in person the internet can't fit your boots

of all the boots out at the moment i think the hawx fits truest to length, most are too long just so they feel nice out the box, go chat with the fitter, get their reassurance that the size is right, get a really well made footbed in the boot (your foot can grow in length over 1.5 shizes just through pronation and elongation, a footbed will limit this)

hope that helps a little, got to go, electrician wants to turn power off
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Thanks all for replying. This flood of advice was exactly what I was after.
I'll write up a bit more when I get to work

Also congrats on 10k CEM
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[quote="CEM"]
davidof wrote:


sorry but i am not sure i have ever read so much tosh in one post as this ^^^^^


and then you repeat my main points, depends on foot volume and someone needs to see the poster's feet and boots. He said he had size 11 feet,well if he does it is unlikely a 27 boot is right for him.

I still bet his boots are too small, given what we know.
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10.5 UK in a boot labeled as 27.0 here.
But the 10.5 UK can be anything from 10-11, or euro 45 to a tight 47.
Conversion charts and iso clothes sizes are nonsense IMHO.
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@davidof

A) we know his foot length is 275mm. I don't care what his street shoe size might be. No point in converting to/from another unit system when foot length in mm can be directly applied to mondopoint (which is in cm, just move the decimal point).

B) We know that the shell fit sounds good. 15-20mm is pretty good.

c) we can deduce from your posts that you don't understand how half sizes in ski boots work, in that every pair of sizes (eg 27 - 27.5) share the same shell.

d) anybody suggesting that a size 29 (or even 30!!!!!) might be needed for a person who has a reasonable shell fit clearance in a 27.5 boot knows very little about ski boot fitting.

It's not often that I go on the attack on a forum but what you are saying is just so wrong.
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@davidof

A) we know his foot length is 275mm. I don't care what his street shoe size might be. No point in converting to/from another unit system when foot length in mm can be directly applied to mondopoint (which is in cm, just move the decimal point).

B) We know that the shell fit sounds good. 15-20mm is pretty good.

c) we can deduce from your posts that you don't understand how half sizes in ski boots work, in that every pair of sizes (eg 27 - 27.5) share the same shell.

d) anybody suggesting that a size 29 (or even 30!!!!!) might be needed for a person who has a reasonable shell fit clearance in a 27.5 boot knows very little about ski boot fitting.

It's not often that I go on the attack on a forum but what you are saying is just so wrong.
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Whatever @CEM says.
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I would second everything CEM said. Ignore conversion charts - no use for ski boots at all. I wear UK 9 shoes and ski 25.5 with no issues, could even go 24.5 in some brands. If you measure 275mm I would certainly be looking at 27/27.5, but as has already been said, a lot more factors can play into it. On the face of it - not too small, but go and see someone in the flesh.
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Thanks all, This is exactly the kind of response i was after.

I hadn't realised that the first few ski days should be numbing with pins and needles in new boots. I'll go back to Ellis Brigham and see what they say about how it was for the first 2 hours on an indoor slope and what they recommend.

I'll also get some really thin socks and start wearing the boots around the house to try to bed them in prior to going to les arcs at the end of Feb.

@CEM Yes, that's something I found out when googling that i should buckle top-down. Also, you describing the stock insole as a carpet tile has convinced me to not skimp on an insole like before.

Thanks again all for your opinions. This forum is brilliant Very Happy
Austin
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Ok, this thread is relevant to my interests... Happy

The OP has the same size foot, boot type (HAWX 120) and size (27.5). I also went through some pretty decent pain the first few days, I had the big toe area punched out a little, and the liner strecthed a bit. After that, they are golden.

Also, shells are made in full sizes, not halves. Forget what street shoe size you are - the most important thing is the shell fit. And, decent foot beds to stablize your foot. These cannot be emphasized enough

I have used the HAWX now for around 80 days, and am starting to get some slight heel lift, so custom liners are in order soon Happy
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@CEM, PHEW, for a second there I thought you were being congratulated on running a 10k Toofy Grin
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My longer foot measures 280. I'm in 26.5 Salomons. Now they really were snug at first. Need 3 or 4 stretches. Still are pretty close fitting after 100+ days.

I totally empathise with the discomfort and worry about whether the boot is too small but given the measurements and shell fit I'm quite sure EB will be able to get the boots to work well for you. Second the advice on very thin socks.
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Go with CEM. When I went to him we went for a "performance" shell fit with 9mm tween heel and shell, rather than a "comfort" fit of around twice that. When stood up straight my toes were pushing against the liner and boot toe box. Once flexed fwd, the foot and toes were pulled back. Considerably aided by a custom footbed raising the instep and stopping the foot getting longer.
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@colinstone, are you not in Mürren?

@Austingeorge, I would not be so sanguine about the abilities of Ellis Brigham vs someone like CEM for example.
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@under a new name, I would go elsewhere, but because I already have my boots, and i would only need to pay for an insole, i don't know if a boot fitter would help me out free of charge.

I know slide 'n' glide is equidistant from me to castleford so might give them a shout and pay the difference, but otherwise, it's a real PITA to sort it out
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