 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If it is icy, how sharp are your edges?
I'm no expert but if you are trying to carve turns on steep sections then you are going to pick up a hell of a lot of speed. If you are scrubbing speed off then you are probably just skidding the turns. You need to get a lesson as without seeing you ski we would only be guessing at your problem. It may even be that your hired skis are too soft and are not capable of putting a lot of force down cleanly.
To carve steep slopes successfully you need to have good technique, loads of confidence and control and composure at speed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For what it's worth I've skied 55 weeks in the last decade and am still having the odd lesson to try to do well what you are trying to do.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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welcome to sH 
skidding & biting = juddering? that'll certainly kill your thighs in no time.
nothing wrong with skidding at all, so long as you've told the skis to skid.
I was also self taught (other than 5 days at the start). best thing I did after 6-7 years was to get a lesson.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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difficult to say - as mentioned above. but you seem to have a pretty good grasp of what you want to do -- including dissociating your lower and upper body (keep facing downhill). So your turns should occur naturally as your lower body wants to correct the torsion --- all good. Maybe take a look at your ski edges -- although if you are renting each time this shouldn't really be an issue. It may be that you are not exerting enough downward force (so the edges are not engaging how you think they are) -- this could be solely a physical issue (does the problem get worse towards the end of the day when you are tired)?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It does sound as though even sub-consciously the skier may be avoiding picking up speed and trying to brake mid turn, that may stop them driving the tips and the skis start to wash out of the turn.
@bad_moose, Is the slope you are trying to turn on one that you would be happy straight-lining if there was a safe run out?
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This kind of juddering is often caused by a mismatch betwen the arc of the turn you are trying to follow and the arc of the ski. It can be caused by either overpowering a soft ski or insufficient commitment to applying pressure to the outside ski (with a stiff ski).
(Sweeping generalisation warning) Overpowering tends to be more of an issue with short radius skis and insufficient pressure more of an issue with longer radius skis.
What skis are you skiing on?
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| hyperkub wrote: |
| ... insufficient commitment to applying pressure to the outside ski (with a stiff ski) |
Judder, if that's what the OP is describing, is more likely the result of too much pressure. To stop judder you need either to edge the ski more, open up the turn radius to reduce the pressure or skid the ski to lose speed. Stomping hard on the ski to apply more pressure with make the judder worse.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Overpowering is more likely for a recreational skiier skiing recreational skis, I agree. But you can get the same phenomenon when (for example) skiing a full-on GS ski too timidly.
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| hyperkub wrote: |
| ... overpowering a soft ski ... |
That's when I get judder - trying too hard to hammer the edge of some limp noodle ski into hardpack
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@bad_moose, I think you need the interaction of a lesson. I had exactly that problem until an instructor solved it last year. I think I can do it right now but I'm not sure how to explain it without a ski pole and some snow to draw on. It seems to be about controlling your speed and applying progressive power with your outside ski as you make the arc.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| hyperkub wrote: |
| Overpowering is more likely for a recreational skiier skiing recreational skis, I agree. But you can get the same phenomenon when (for example) skiing a full-on GS ski too timidly. |
Maybe we are talking about a different thing, but when I ski a full-on GS ski too timidly I tend to go almost in a straight line, very fast. No judder involved, just increasing fear levels.
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Maybe a further word of explanation is needed. With a short radius ski the issue of axial stiffness becomes more important. If the ski isn't stiff enough axially, it twists when you engage the shovels in an aggressive turn initiation. This leads to the tips going into a cycle of biting and not biting as the ski oscialltes axially. This is why modern race skis have a small tip rocker, it helps dampen that phenomenon and give a cleaner turn initiation.
On a long radius ski, axial stiffness is easier for ski manufacturers to deliver. The shovel is not hugely wider than the waist so it applies less torque. The main issue with skiing a long, stiff GS ski is that as the force builds up in the turn you have to be determined to meet that force and have the patience to realise that the turn takes a long time to reach completion.. If you are half-hearted the ski will judder and protest. But this is a vibration longitudinally along the length of the ski. Without sufficient force from the leg to hold it bent in an arc, it momentarily lets go. It then moves out towards the outside of the turn and re-engages. Since it moved outwards it gets a bit more angle and can maybe hold for a moment....but if the force builds up even more it will let go again.
You can also overpower a soft ski longitudinally, in which case you just bend it too much.
M
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You know it makes sense.
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This issue with GS skis does happen.i had been racing on some old Atomic GS skis 183/r23 and bought some new GS skis in 182/r25. Since the Atomics were old and almost worn out they were quite soft. The new skis were much stiffer and I found them a real handful with a lot of judder.
I had a discussion with my trainer and gis advice was that I needez to commit more to the outside ski. More pressyre and more edge angle. After a couple of sessions everything calmed down.
On the other hand if I attempt to ski a GS course with 189/28 I get exactly the result described. I go straight on.... the juddering occurs in no-mans land where you commit to the start of the turn but don't follow through. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@hyperkub, I think we're probably saying the same thing, in slightly different ways. For me its the increasing edge angle that makes a difference. In a high speed, carved turn there is no shortage of pressure between the ski and the snow.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob's description makes sense to me. I've struggled with judder when trying to get my fatter skis to carve shorter turns on steepish hard pack. It happens when I don't commit to getting a high enough edge angle - pressing hard wont help without the high edge angle.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm sure many of the points above are contributors to the problem. From what you describe in your description of how you are trying to make your carved turns, however, I'm thinking you may be flexing your ankle too much to, as you say 'lean forward.' This moves your pivot point forward and causes the ski to wash out through the turn. The ski is not able to grip along its length and carve the turn. It's a common problem especially as terrain becomes a little harder as people feel the need to do something more which is often incorrectly to press harder on the front of the ski. As some contributors have described getting the ski onto a higher edge is what is needed but this will only work if you are separated appropriately and thus able to angulate to keep pressure on the outside ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FAQ
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