 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmmm... The problem with those as the pictures show is that they force your legs to be too close together...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ssh, They look pretty similar to the grass skis we use - in which case getting your skis too close together is the last thing you want to do, a recipe for disaster! I can't see that there is anything in the design the would cause this to happen - perhaps it's more a question of style - we still see plenty of skiers on snow, including some of the older generation of instructors and their former pupils, who ski in this way. Young skiers who have learnt on carvers maintain spacing on grass skis. Criticisms from alpine trainers levelled at grass skiing usually concern other aspects of position, particularly the fact that body position/weight over the ski is centred a little further back (inevitably, because of the shorter length).
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I had a client last year who was a Harold Harb fan. He skied with his legs glued together (as we did in the 50's and 60's). This is biomechanically inefficient, and is why we no longer do it. I got his legs apart during the week, and at the end he had to admit that he felt more stable and was able to use and feel his skis better. Check out the best skiers in the world - Hermann Meier & co. None of them ski with their feet together - why?
Ski-ing on grass skis is a lot like ski-ing on snowblades with regard to the centre of balance. Good practice and lots of fun, but not exactly the same as "normal" length skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Still, with slalom skis especially getting ever shorter, the similarities with this are pretty clear!
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PG, Fascinating series of photos and web site.
Never done grass skiing - looks fun.
Thanks for sharing.
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ssh, Didn't realise you were SCSA-baiting, I thought you were making a very sensible point! It is true though that Alpine trainers in general 'dislike' roller-skiing and grass-skiing because of the theory that come winter when the snow returns you tend to start off sitting back on your skis. From what I've seen however, advanced skiers seem to be able to make the switch with little difficulty...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PG,
excellent photos!
I've just received an artical by HH from a friend which on first reading appears to be unintelligible. When I've slept, worked tomorrow, read it 6 more times I hope to have a sensible opinion. 
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easiski, I'd love a copy. PM it to me?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PG, the typical complaint about the PMTS approach is that it focuses on feet-together skiing. While HH and the top skiers that any program produces can ski in any way, focusing skiing movement on a base that is artificially narrow doesn't make any sense to me. The pictures of Diana that SCSA points to clearly show her knees in closer to her body center line than would be natural stance width. That, I argue, is inefficient skiing and may be even a possible contributor to injury due to the weak knee joint angles.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ssh, I'm not sure I follow your point about 'natural stance width'? That's certainly one criticism I've never heard levelled at grass skiing - where the base is indeed slightly narrower but as you are 'carving' virtually all of the time I would have thought that ski width wasn't a significant factor? Here and here you have a couple of 16 year olds training. To my eye their skis are well-spaced, even if there is the other slight variance with stance on snow that I mentioned previously. The centre of gravity further back over the skis is more visible here.
On snow and on grass - (the same skier)
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Carving grass should not be confused with mowing grass, but if you want to leave powder-type tracks when grass-skiing you'll need to fit your grass skis with strimmers.
Sorry, carry on.
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You know it makes sense.
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PG, all of those look "natural width" to me. I was referring to Diana's stance width in the photo referenced in the post that started this thread. Her feet are closer together than her hips, forcing her knees closer together than her hips, too, and thus weakening them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ssh, I follow, so you were referring to the teaching method rather than the rollerski equipment itself as being responsible for the feet-together stance? I don't know, these transatlantic threads do get a little difficult to follow at times!
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Poster: A snowHead
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PG, indirectly, yes. This is one of those threads with history. PMTS (HH's approach to teaching/learning skiing) focuses on feet-together skiing. When I looked at the picture of this latest HH gadget (which looks kinda fun to me!), I noticed how pinched Diana's knees looked, and the challenge/stress that would place on them. Hence, I decided to post about that as bait for the conversation.
It's not nearly so funny when I have to explain it, though, so I'll work on that! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ssh,
Regarding Diana's skiing, I think if you were to make turns with her you'd have an entirely different opinion. She's the best female I've ever seen.
Regarding that PMTS focuses on boot locked, that's simply not true. It teaches a narrow and athetic stance, but not boot locked. I've even been working on opening up my stance, just a hair.
It never ceases to amaze me, all the misinformation about PMTS. 
On the Harb Carvers. They were developed by ski professionals for skiers. The Austrian and Italian national ski teams are training on them now, as we type. It's not "...grass skiing." You use the carvers on pavement, just like roller blading.
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Folks, I'm simply not going to "bite" and get into all the PMTS arguing. As avid skiers, it would simply not be wise of you to dismiss a product or company just on hear say. Judge a product or service by those THAT HAVE USED IT!
Lemme ask you all this. When you go to make a purchase, you rely on others who've actually used what you're considering purchasing, right? Like, you wouldn't go buy a Ford based on someone's opinions who's never even drove the model you're interested in, right?
Of course you wouldn't! You're going to find others who've driven your car. Or, you're going to rely on reviews in car magazines or what not. But in either case, you're basing your opinion on others who've driven the car you're considering.
Skiing is no different. If your goal is to learn to ski well, then the first thing you should do is find out what's being offered for ski instruction. Then, talk to students who've taken the instruction you're considering.
Then make a decision that you think is best for you.
I'm not trying to stuff PMTS down anyone's throats. I'm only trying to let others know about products or services.
ssh knows zero about PMTS, the evidence is right there, in he/she/its post.
Or in other words,
"Pay no attention, to that man behind the curtain."
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The black piste that these harb things seem to need looks very hard and no doubt painfull if you fall 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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from the Harb site ....
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| An idea for just such a device came to me just over a year ago while out at dinner with my long time friend Hermann Gollner and my partner Diana. |
SCSA, Have you any idea just how long wheeled skis and other similar products have been around?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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ssh, et all -
I do not think PMTS is the "One and only way." What I do think, is that today, I feel it's the very best ski instruction product available. There's no doubt about it, there's other ways to learn to ski. But I've talked to lots of other skiers. I ask them about what is they were taught, in private lessons or what not. I've yet to meet one, who could explain to me what they were taught, or what their general plan is for making turns.
I'll argue right here right now that if a person can't explain to another what their skiing plan is, they have no plan. Then I"ll argue that if they paid for lessons and still can't explain what their plan is, those lessons were worthless.
Dogmatic? I dunno about that. I'm just trying to spread the word. It's good karma, helping others. Particularly, when you see them wasting their money.
Here's another one for you. On gapic, they're just now talking about collapsing the outside leg, otherwise known in PMTS as the weighted release. PMTS has been teaching the weighted release since day 1, in 1996. 8 years later, ski professionals on gapic are JUST NOW finding out about it. They're just now, starting to contemplate teaching it in their lessons!
So movements that HH and others (Eric Deslaurier, Lito) have been advocating for years, are just now creepin their way into mainstream ski instruction!
And this is a product (talking about mainstream ski instruction) that people are proud of? You've got to be joking.
Phooey.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SCSA wrote ,
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Regarding that PMTS focuses on boot locked, that's simply not true.
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Well, I copied this from http://www.harbskisystems.com/carver.htm
Fig. d. Keep tipping the free ski as the stance ski rolls onto its big-toe edge and turns out of the fall line. Keep the free foot in contact with the stance boot.
Fig. e. Keep tipping the free foot. Pull it back underneath you so the arch stays in contact with the cuff of the stance boot.
Maybe it means something different in America
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maggi, thanks for the pointer. It helped me find the one I was talking about (it's a glove, not a towel):
glove squeeze.
Among the comments in the text:
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| In ungroomed conditions, especially powder, crud, and windpack, it’s crucial that the skis and legs work and stay together. |
Guess I can't ski the ungroomed, then.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I rmember when I was learning to ski in Andorra a few years ago, and heard one instructor shout
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I don't care what your mother told you, get your knees apart!
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You know it makes sense.
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Interesting. I'm not really sure there is a huge difference between these and just using rollerblades and I'm not sure either really react the same as a ski on snow given that snow is usually a lot softer than tarmac. If you find a nice 15 - 20 degree slope you can certainly practise slalom stance on rollerblades... you need to change weight, 'edge' and move uphill / downhill position as on skis. You will certainly improve you balance which will be beneficial for skiing as the skates are much shorter than skis. You really notice this most after a winter of skiing when you come back to blading.
Still I await the video.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Good morning all!
It's a beautiful day here in Eagle County, I hope it is wherever you he/she/its are!
Obviously I haven't tried them yet. The big difference between the carvers and blading is that you can skid blades. You can't skid the carvers. So, they really enforce skiing movements.
If you look at them, they're much wider than blades. And, each carver has 2 sets of wheels. HH and company designed the carvers to emulate the tipping movements and to simulate edging. The movements you make on the carvers are exactly the same as in PMTS; flattening, then rolling the outside, downhill foot over to it's little toe edge to start the new turn. I'll have video posted as soon as I get on them -- take it easy on me though.
###############
One more note about ski instruction.
Eric Deslaurier runs All Mountain Ski Pros in Sugarbowl CA. Him and his staff have been teaching skiers to make turns with their downhill foot since the early 90's. Eric D. is not only a great skier, but he's had success with lots of skiers. Their camps are highly successful in teaching skiers to "get to the next level."
Lito Tejata Flores has been running his Breakthrough on Skis camps in Aspen for years now. Litos camps are highly successful too. Skiers come away with skills they thought were out of reach for them.
John Clendenin runs camps in Aspen too, with great success. http://www.skidoctors.com/ He has loyal customers and I've spoken to a few who've taken his camps. All of them exhibited good to great skiing skills and a high understanding of skiing movments.
Peter Keelty has a site that focuses on ski reviews. Peter's ski reviews are relied on by skiers and magazine publishers.
So you've got:
1) Eric D.
2) Lito
3) John Clendenin
4) Peter Keelty
What's the common element among them all? Well, first of all, these guys are at the top of their game. Hard to find 4 better names in ski instruction than this group.
They're all on board with Harald. All of these top pros either teach PMTS right out of the book, or they're teaching PMTS concepts. You won't go to one of thier camps and learn steering or traditional ski instruction concepts. If you go to one of these camps, you're going to learn to make turns with your downhill foot. You'll learn a narrow -- not boot locked -- stance. You'll learn 1 SET OF MOVEMENTS that can be applied to any conditions and to any terrain. Oh. BTW. None of them teach the wedge or anything to do with it.
Folks, I can go on and on about my personal feelings. Or, some bloke can come up with convaluted examples that support teaching the wedge. Neither, holds any water.
What I can do though, is offer you facts, so you can make educated decisions. Testimonials from other skiers just like y'all, who are enjoying success applying what I write about. Names of highly successful ski pros that support what I write about. I'm not going to post drivel. I post when I find something I believe in and that others too, believe in.
From what I can tell here, y'all are motivated skiers. Else, why would you post? Well, if that's the case, if y'all are motivated to improve, then by Gawd you need to know what the real score is! Now is a great time to be a skier. The instruction is great (that's if you know where to go), the equipment is better than ever. Anyone, really can be, an expert skier.
Folks, I truly do believe that if you're following any other type of ski instruction, you're just not going to get the results that you deserve and that you paid for! I think I've stated a pretty good case for y'all to think outside the box. I'm asking you he/she/its to pay attention to facts and customers -- not to dogma, or a few ski instructors with an axe to grind.
Gotta go now -- you he/she/its are the best!
Be cool and make it a great day!   
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 13-04-04 15:44; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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SCSA, As I posted earlier, this is not a new design. Whether two parallel wheels or one large wide wheel, the effect is the same. The latter have been around for donkey's years in France. Ditto with tracked grass skis. On grass you have a ski that mimics the real thing and a skiing surface that resembles snow in many ways - uneven slope, different conditions (wet/dry/soft etc). I cannot see that coasting down a nice smooth tarmacked road comes even close.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Oh. BTW. None of them teach the wedge or anything to do with it. |
Check out this lesson and then by clicking on "No More Plow - Learn a strong, parallel turn finish" go to an article about the "Phantom wedge closure" with HH demonstrating closing a wedge in what looks like a wedge christie to me...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SCSA wrote: |
On gapic, they're just now talking about collapsing the outside leg, otherwise known in PMTS as the weighted release. PMTS has been teaching the weighted release since day 1, in 1996. 8 years later, ski professionals on gapic are JUST NOW finding out about it. They're just now, starting to contemplate teaching it in their lessons!
So movements that HH and others (Eric Deslaurier, Lito) have been advocating for years, are just now creepin their way into mainstream ski instruction! |
SCSA, your conclusion does not relate IN ANY WAY to the posts on epicski.com. One instructor raised a comment about a style of skiing. Some of the others who have replied have commented on their varitaions of it and how long they've been teaching it for...
"Back in the day we used to tell students to pretend that a gunslinger just shot the support leg out from under them. Politically incorrect in this day, perhaps, but easy to imagine."
Oh, and I think Eric D demonstrated his skill levels very well at the EpicSki Academy, but I guess you wouldn't want to admit that he would go and teach at such an event.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SCSA,
It's like Budweiser, invented over this side of the pond but packaged up different over there. I prefer to stick with the original.
PS Is this why Bode Miller lives in Innsbruck during the ski season - so that he's nearer the PMTS camp at Hintertux?
PPS Were you a Jehovah's witnes in a former life?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well, SCSA, i truly disagree that there is a method that is better than other methods all over the board. My experince is that there are methods and instructors that suit best one particular skier at a given stage, but not one of them is the absolute best. If i take ypur car analogy, if car X is the best, why aren't we all driving the same car? Or given that not all of us can afford any car, why aren't we all driving the same car in a given cathegory (sallon, compact, 4x4 etc)? Because we have different needs, and i feel that the system is less important than the instructor, and the goodness of fit between the instructor and the pupil/client
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
She's the best female I've ever seen.
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Maybe she's the best in the USA, but over here in Europe we have a young lady called Janica Kosterlic! (not sure about the spelling)
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Have you any idea just how long wheeled skis and other similar products have been around?
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Back in around 1982 we had some wheeled skis called slalom skates which were invented (I believe) by Gustavo Thoeni. They had bindings like snowblades, were about the same length, had 2 wheels fore and 2 wheels aft of a hinge sort of mechanism with a boot platform proud of the ski. They were skied on tarmac and were loads of fun for everyone except me. (I was the only one with a car so was constantly on "skilift" duty - we held onto the car to go back up the hill).
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I feel it's the very best ski instruction product available
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That's great, but how many have you tried? Some of us just try to teach people to ski, and do not consider ourselves a "product"!
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Hard to find 4 better names in ski instruction than this group.
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Sorry - never skied in the States, but have not heard of any of them. What about Ali Ross? Still teaching, ski-ing like an angel, and introduced carving "the ski turns you, you don't turn the ski" back in the early 70's.
sugardaddy, I agree 100%. By the way I like early 70's American muscle cars - not very good in the snow though!!
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easiski, is that kind of like, "Teach the student, not the sport?"
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Fox,
You're a nice he/she/it. But you don't know jack, about skiing. I don't how else to say it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hey SCSA, do you have a special rose-tinted filter for all of the other sensible comments made above that you have completely ignored, or is it that you simply consider us lesser beings to be unworthy of your attention?  Does skiing with your legs glued together give you tunnel vision? Have you actually heard of the world's top alpine and freestyle/X Games skiers that have been mentioned with reference to the success of 'mainstream' technique? Do you have any comment on the fact that double and wide wheel roller skis, as well as tracked skis, have existed for several decades before they were 'reinvented' according to the article you quoted? How about the fact that grass skiing is considerably more similar to the 'real thing' than skiing on tarmac????
The above from memory - there are plenty of other informed criticisms made previously in the thread to which you have made no response.
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PG, SCSA likes living in his own world, where he ignores anything which questions his opinion that he is correct, or anyone who challenges him, but then goes on the offensive - always fighting for his right to be right, and your requirement to agree with him.
Now, what do you call that guy who does that? I'm sure I saw him on TV last night with Ariel Sharon...
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FAQ
It's SCSA! Live from Eagle! 
